bertram31.com

Sailfish Marina (Singer Island- Palm Beach Shores, FL) north dock, north side. A 68' Scully sportfish has electronic engine control failure, backs hard into a dock, and partially sinks. Several pictures. Lifted from THT.

http://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-for ... -dock.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Added: More pics here.

http://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-for ... -ouch.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

that sucks

Not surprising on a "fly by wire" boat...

That's gonna leave a mark......

Fly by wire seems like a good idea till you add salt water and lots of vibration.

I'd prefer using a bit more effort shifting and throttling up then the ease of electronic.

Such a shame.

makes me really appreciate my old school cable throttles and cable steering...
must have been an exhilarating 10 seconds in their lives

Somewhere there is a VERY unhappy owner !!

Steve,
That boat was out of the water by the office getting a bunch of work done while you were docked at The Ways.

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Having installed, programmed and operated computerized engines and controls something smells fishy about this incident.
I haven't seen one system yet that did not have a master shut down within reach of controls. You kill the power, you kill engine function period.

We'll see what comes out in the future.

Guys,
The boat is at Viking yard today, the transom live well is back near the chair, covering boards at very strange angles, took out a finger pier at Sailfish at full throttle in reverse. Someone's going to pay dearly for this, not a pretty sight.
Pete Fallon

I had the opportunity to run a boat 390 hours with a set of electronic controls. The delay was a bit tough getting use to. But even with a low voltage issue once, I never had a failure. I had to re set them one time but it was 5 degrees outside. Hell the spotlight froze from freezing spray and wouldn't move that night. They would operate fine for about an hour and then flash. I never had the quick response that cables give you. They don't seem to decelerate as quick as cables, which makes things interesting.

I've never heard one person say ANYTHING positive about fly by wire controls...

All of the Air Bus planes built except for the A310 and A300 which I used to fly, have fly by wire controls. The pilots each have a joy stick which isn't connected to anything but the computer. About eight months before Sully landed his A320 in the Hudson, I was landing a 737 at LaGuardia, and when I was on final approach to runway 22 at about a thousand feet high fully configured for landing, I had to dive the 737 under a large flock of very large birds to avoid multiple bird strikes. I watched those birds go right above the windshields by just several feet. We scared the shit out of those birds as they literally shit all over our windshields. We lost about 400 feet during the dive, and the airplane yelled at me "SINK RATE, TERRAIN, TERRAIN, PULL UP", but it let me do it to avoid a potentially catastrophic situation. I wonder if Sully's fly by wire A320 would have allowed that since the computer is not looking out the window and probably would not have allowed such an evasive maneuver, especially so close to the ground. We got to use the airplane again after cleaning the windshields, and I didn't even get a book or movie deal! I made a PA once we parked at the gate apologizing and explaining why I did that. Most of the passengers understood the potential danger, but a few older ladies said, "captain, thank you for saving those birds"! The 737 like the 757s and 767s I currently fly are hydraulically controlled just like my 31 Bertram is. My Vetus hydraulic controls have been one of my more troublesome things on my boat though.

I was VERY close to pulling the trigger on repowering back when Cummins had just come out with the QSB5.9. I specifically thought the SmartCraft cruise control function where you could preset certain RPM speeds and just hit a button would be awesome. I will never forget Bruce telling me then to take the Yanmar 6LP over the QSB5.9's in large part because he did not think electronic fly by wire controls were going to be without trouble.

When I hear stories about guys stuck offshore with their computerized engine controls refusing to maintain anything but idle speed, I thank my lucky stars that Bruce put the fear of God into me about jumping on that technology.

I've run a few boats with electronic controls including an 83' yacht. Once you get the "feel" of the controls it's a non issue. They also work great when working a big fish. I'm thinking of putting them on my Bertram this winter actually

I'm not sure I am fully on board with the non electronic crowd.

I've fished on Quite afew electronically controlled vessels, the majority being Viking yachts, including the 66 I ran a few weeks ago. I believe a failure is preventable beginning at install and would certainly review a companies quality process prior to authorizing any boat build.

Regardless It's always spectacular when a big boat breaks in public, but I'd really like to know what the root cause actually was. These should all be potentiometer driven throttles with electronic switches for gears, it seems strange that both would fail at the same time with one defaulting to WOT and then at such a precarious time, then on top of it to not be able to shut down, seems to me there will be some very concise review of installation procedures for that entire system. Perhaps even a forensic review of all cabling.

Just seems we are awful quick to kill the fly by wire systems that in reality work well most of the time.

Good luck finding the throttle cable on your car.

JP,

For me at least, the operative words are "most of the time"... And I have had personal experience with a manual cable failure, (a premium roller bearing cable none the less), and, as O'brian's Law would have it, it seems that 99% of the time sh!t hits the fan when docking.

O'Brian's Law??? Only premise of O'Brian's Law is that Murphy is a freakin' optimist!

I don't remember making that comment John but if I did it was because I was one of the few dealers that installed some of the first units and if I remember right it was because they were interfaced with Glendenning and supposed to be plug and play, which they were not. I was left to figure out on my own. I did, got everything programmed on the displays for those qsb's. Pain.

Owner picked up and to Lauderdale. To get cabin redone. After the boat sat for 9 months at their shop. Engines and controls didn't work.

I think they got hit by lightning but I told to turn it in under the Cummins warrantee. Never heard back. I'm sure by now theyfigured the initial issues out.

I like electronic controls. Early on they were all a pain and first designs always suck. The Yanmar6lp teleflex system works well, just a little more difficult to program. The fully electronic systems are easy now with a laptop rather than inputting data using one or two keys on the main computer.

Biggest problem is complete failure like nav electronics due to lightning strikes.

I'll hold off until the report comes out, if we can ever get wind of it. Insurance co and or manufacturer may bury it.

I think this is that Scully from this thread. Came into The Ways while working on a boat. I notice on the bridge helm where the controls would be that it looks like a saw cut out around them and took them off intact and mounted.

Tried to google and find out was the finding was but nothing came up.

Today they were tearing the plywood fix off the transom. Either someone bought it from the insurance company and is going to fix it or the owner got his settlement check.

Fellas,
I had Micro Commanders on Reel Cowboy for the first few trips, and, I'm thankful that the boat or crew weren't seriously injured. They worked great at first and then they came demon possessed. The boat would get stuck in gear and rev up and you would have to shut down the engines to shut things down. The error code on the starboard control would show a code that didn't jive with what was going on with the engine or gear. The port side always worked great. I called the factory and was advised that they thought that the actuator was falty and that the minimal charge to check it out would be $1,000 plus shipping. A week later we installed stainless Morse controls...230 hours on her now with no other issues.
Beware.
John.

Bruce wrote:
Having installed, programmed and operated computerized engines and controls something smells fishy about this incident.
I haven't seen one system yet that did not have a master shut down within reach of controls. You kill the power, you kill engine function period.

Bruce,
Are most of these systems like the Scully's type CAN twisted pair 120 ohm with digital sensors? If they are wouldn't the ecu recognize a high resistance issue and shut system down or at least put a big fault lite on? I read a little into The Hull Truth guys and one heard cause was low voltage conditions, which would be high resistance somewhere I'd think unless it's the servo motors having low voltage to operate. I don't know, but I'd think the aviation cntrls would have some sort of redundant system on board for such a issue. Not so much on the marine app yet?
I know on my Toyotas the can bus system is always looked at and resistance values compared or it will not operate certain systems on vehicle and throw a master warning light for safety reasons. Not so advanced yet on these?

About 50% of those control systems were as you describe Rocky and where most diesels are today.
All of those systems have a default on low voltage that shuts down somewhere in the 11.5 vdc. None of them default to a WOT condition that was suggested on some forums.

Like you say if the computer is not getting the proper signal from each monitoring point, a fault occurs. How that fault affects the over all engine and gear position depends on just what the fault is.

One issue I saw was we all know how tight wire chases can be. Since these devices are low current draw, wire tends to run in the 18 to 20 gauge size. Pulling thru a chase can create a possible breaking of strands within a wire thus affecting its signal. Also once the controls are in from the factory, its not uncommon for the nav electronics folks to use the same chases and fill up the space pulling 12, 10 or larger wire sizes and large diameter data cables for say a radar or such.

Too many variables including software issues. I have seen some squirrely computers, especially after electrical and lightning storms.

I would think that once the boat was released like it is, an investigation and report is done. But if it turns out to be a manufacturing defect, there could have been a confidential settlement.

I for one would like to know what was found.

BTW, it is reported that the controls were Mathers Micro commanders. While it is one brand of control I never liked, since the engines were reported to be MTU(division of Mercedes and an engine brand I had not so great experience with) common rail, it would not be anything like the old micro commander controls with the servo boxes. They were just hateful and like John suggested, possessed.

Amazing a system like the Mathers Micro Command would have known ecu faults and not addressed as a (in my world automotive) a tsb or better yet a recall/campaign. Toyota definitely steps up to the plate there and handles business OMO when they should, unlike the big three. Of course, they are in the spotlight with injured and worse from accel pedals "stuck" and such. Every day I'm reflashing ecus for safety issues on accel pedals and known bugs. I understand lightning strikes playing havoc on these systems as we know ecus are sensitive to voltage spikes or low, probably no way to address that one so that seems to be one acheles heel on electronic cntrls that will always be there!

well I might piss some people off, but as far as the Toyota thing, I never understood how people are so f%^ed stupid that they just sit there when the floor mat gets on top of the accelerator. Turn the engine off. daaaa, or if you really need your power steering and brake assit, put it in neutral and blow the engine. Seems to me to be Darwin working his magic that these people died. Tell me what you guys do if the throttle, shift, or steering goes south? I have had shifter cable brake and as Pat pointed out, it always seems to happen when docking. Toyota got screwed and not once did the press say the people driving where anything other than "victims of big business"....

Yeah Scott your right the folks that claimed they are victims of the vehicle being at fault should have been categorized as darwin material, of course just my opinion. Toyota was just trying to address the "problems" by A- shortening the accel pedals so when owners double mat under them they don't "get stuck" as much, B- modifying the floor so it sits lower around pedal so when owners double mat there is more room to make a boneheaded move like that, and C- the ecu is reflashed to not allow the customer to panic with access to gas and brake at the same time! I guess my point was previously that Toyota does address actual issues with vehicles, but I think it does take safety issues or thousands of reports of problems to get the ball rolling on recalls and tsbs. Maybe Mathers will see this one as an opportunity to improve they're product IF at fault, I 'm with Bruce I hope the report comes back with details on how it failed, but if it is a confidential settlement I suppose we (the public) might not ever see fault. I just hope they don't sweep it under the rug if system was at fault and product along with install guidelines improved.

Rocky- seems Toyota is trying to Idiot Proof the problem. Take it from me, today there is no such thing anymore. Idiots have too much practice and being idiotic may be the only thing they are actually very good at....well that and finding a good attorney to sue. Although the latter may have more to do with ambulance chasing attorneys finding these clients.


I am surprised these fly by wire systems do not incorporate fail safes. Spring return on throttle at the motor and have actuators release in the event of low voltage, power out, etc.

Fully computerized systems don't have throttle arms or anything like that to hang a return spring on. Most are position sensors or very small servo's.

On a common rail system, there is no injection pump and the injectors are fired electronically. Everything is electrical.
On a system where the injectors are fired by an injection pump, the pump is outfitted with a servo and TPS sensor, still all electric.

Everything is done by software and there is not one system that I know of that defaults a low voltage or component fault to anything but a reduced engine speed or engine kill, blocking the ability to have a run away problem.

All this same electronics has been used in the automotive industry since the 70's.

Many don't trust the electronics by the replies, but I doubt there isn't one of them that isn't driving a car that has a fully computerized system and won't hesitate to jump on the freeway doing 80mph.
Its all the same technology along the line.

I never followed the Toyo issue of runaway engines. I think Carl indicated that some of it was the car mat on the throttle.

This is why I would really like to know what was final report on the investigation.

A software glitch is another issue all together.

Bruce wrote: but I doubt there isn't one of them that isn't driving a car that has a fully computerized system and won't hesitate to jump on the freeway doing 80mph.

Or jump on a plane with relative ease. I don't know, I'm torn between the steadfast idea on mechanical vs electronic, electronic can only get better with time. Then again saline solutions seem to find they're way into places like no other.
Carl your completely right about idiot proofing Toyota's vehicles, between the panic situations people have then blame the car or the plain idiocy of doubling floor mats and blaming car, it is the lawyers at work. Not one of my instructors ever said yep, we are recalling these because there is an actual problem with them.
I'm with you Bruce on a report back, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was an installation error(thought I read on THT the kill switch was in engine room only?) either by Mathers installer or like you said someone coming in after and crowding wire chases something of that nature.

Commercial Planes have redundant systems, are highly regulated, pilots are trained for worst case scenarios and on commercial flights have an extra pair of eyes and hands AKA Co-Pilot. Systems are rigorously tested and retested with lots of R&D.


Cars- At 80mph going down the road we have these big pedals next to the gas pedal, a gear selector and ignition switch all within reach.
Cars also go thru lots of R&D and the components go thru lots of R&D plus feedback from the masses of vehicles on the road with similar systems. I don't believe for a minute its done with safety the idea of peoples well being in mind...but more of a bean counters approach...too many people to sue if a system fails and can be blamed on them.

Boats...recreational boats and at the higher end of the spectrum. Not sure just how much R&D is done as market is somewhat small. Lots to invest with rigorous R&D...sometimes I think they use the customers for R&D.
Aside from that, a boat has heat, lots of vibration, high humidity and as Rocky said that saline solution.

Now add to that a jovial mood coming in from a days fishing...captain may not be 100% on his game at that point, boat goes to full throttle and he's grabbing to hold on as he tries to remedy by throttle and shifter...don't work...goes for the kill switch. He may be standing in wrong area to hit the switch, ignition switch location? I've seen in some weird places to try and hit in an emergency.

So no place to put spring returns on motors...

Do motors still need air to run? How about a pair of Air dampers to kill air going to motors rigged on a kill cable...like they used in the old days of runaway diesel motors.

Grand-daddy's rule #1: Never approach anything faster than you want to hit it. Appears the helmsman was following that rule.
Mm Hmm.

Mikey wrote:Grand-daddy's rule #1: Never approach anything faster than you want to hit it. Appears the helmsman was following that rule.
Mm Hmm.

Point here is what happens when you approach at that slow speed and motors say otherwise by adding throttle...or in this case alot of throttle.

If he was coming in hot...then we have a different story.

I re-read one of the comments on THT and (page5) claims the low voltage was TO the control box. If this is true all the sensing, controlling, checking, and every job the control box has would give erroneous readings and commands of drivers out of box, is how I would understand it if it is like an ecu that cntrls all servos.
(The ecu would do some very strange things if low voltage was sent to it, or floating ground to ecu). Also same guy that said kill switches were only in engine compartment. What! That seems insane to me if that boat was running with the only kill switches down there. Maybe the engine shut downs were through control box at bridge, and separate kill system switches were in engine comp. Report back will be interesting.

As an engineer I have come to the conclusion that you can't make things idiot proof... Every time I think I have achieved idiot proof status a bigger idiot comes along to prove me wrong...

I'll take something designed by a mechanic over an engineer everyday.

Engineers;
The market survey demanded a mule
Sales designed a horse
The engineers delivered a camel

True story

Happy Holidays Team

Your right Nav, triple floor mats! We don't believe it when we see it but they do it.

Rocky,
The microprocessor based systems operate off 5v for the most part and the input voltage either 110v in the case of something plugged into a wall outlet, or 12, 24 v in the case of batteries all have regulated power supplies in any modern designed electronics that for the most part shut down when that threshold of low voltage is hit. What ever that may be in the design.

This is very common in today's navigation electronics where around 11.5v most will shut down because the regulated power supply that feeds the micro processors have that built in. Low voltage induces higher current and can easily burn out components that have limited tolerance ranges as another issue.

The same would go for any microprocessor control based system. If the voltage was low enough to cause glitches in the system, it already would have shut down.

And yes if a report ever does surface, it would be nice to read.

Usually if its operator error, its revealed. If its a manufacturing defect or installation error, good luck that seeing the light of day. Confidentiality agreements and payoffs.

Well yes in theory the low voltage conditions before ecu should shut system down but- in real life conditions (just using a Prius for example) we get people who think they can run their Prius out of fuel and keep going on main hv battery. When that depletes in less than one minute, when the ecus approach low voltage supply the vehicle doesn't just shut down first, it will operate very strangely then shut down just before low voltage threshold is met. I know by design this should not happen and intention was to shut it down before but for some reason they do act strangley right at that threshold.
Of course after the threshold typical low voltage fault codes are thrown.

Can't figure why toyo would allow a system glitch on low voltage without shutting it down first unless its just another idiot lite function like the oil lite to tell the driver to pull over, your engine is about to self combust.

Can't explain why either Bruce, happened too on our field tests through training, that was to disable engine starting through techstream and drive vehicle until battery depleted. Instructor's lesson was just how little distance we could get on HV battery alone, maybe 300 yards at full throttle. But just before shutdown steering assist motor acted strangely, and throttle would be erratic. I'm no electrical engineer couldn't say why but it does happen before threshold met. Perhaps not the same strategy as the Mathers system.