bertram31.com

I need some repower advice, please.

Shambala threw a rod last Sunday on her starboard 454 Mercruiser 72 series. I have to admit I never thought I would get 9 years of service out of the Mercruisers. As such, I find myself a little behind the curve after educating myself on the repower discussion 5-6 years ago. I always thought I would put Yanmar 6LP’s in when the time came. However, when I called my Yanmar dealer in Sausalito last Monday, he told the 6LP’s were being obsoleted and the 8LV-320’s were Yanmar’s new big block replacement engine.

The dealer did say there was a some limited inventory of 6LP’s left, but I don’t want to start the repower until January due to tax implications. Thus, there are no guarantees on inventory being available when I am ready to start.

Additionally, the dealer is telling me the tone and smoothness of the 8LV's is incredible, even compared to the 6LP's. I'm not sure what to think about that without being able to compare the 6LP and 8LV side to side. I always thought the 6LP's were amazingly quiet and smoke free at idle & trolling speeds. My first thought about 8 cylinder engines was two more cylinders mean more money and higher fuel burn. The last time I priced 6LP’s I believe they were $26K w/gears and trolling valves (a necessity for salmon fishing in Northern California). Not sure what the cost will be on the 8LV’s as I am waiting for some numbers from the dealer. Yanmar’s specs show the fuel burn/torque actually better on the 8LV’s than the 6LP’s. If anyone could give me rough numbers on the cost of the engines with gears, I would appreciate it. Also, any confirmation that analyzing fuel burn at specific ft/lbs of torque between two engines as a measure of reasonable comparison absent an actual 8LV B31 installation would be appreciated.

The next concern is whether they would fit well. I don’t have the dimensions on my 1978 454 Mercruisers, so I just began comparing the specs on the diesel engines I know fit in B31’s.

The 6LP’s are 48” long by 26.2” wide.

Cummins QSB 5.9’s are 40.8” long by 32.9 wide.

The 6LY’s that went into Buddy Boy (that I thought at the time was the tightest installation I had seen on a recent B31 repower) are 57.4” long by 31.5” wide.

The new 8LV-320’s are 44.5” long by 35” wide.

My biggest concern looking at those numbers without knowing the measurements of my 454’s is whether a 35” width makes access to the outboard side of the engine and the outboard shelves that hold two group 31 batteries and holding tank starboard and 4 group 31 batteries port even more difficult. When I made custom battery boxes for Shambala, I had to remove the outboard piece of the motor box to fit them in. I’m just curious to know what the collective thoughts are a 35” wide motor.

I read the “Another Repower Thread” all the way through. I’m guessing transport costs are at least in the $5 per mile range with fuel costs being what they are. That, and the relative lack of B31’s on the West Coast market, makes the analysis a little different for me. However, the sad point is not lost on me that there may be better value in buying a completely finished boat. That was a gut wrenching thread to read as I am afraid the current economic and market value may put a lot of B31 hulls in Purgatory. I don’t know if I am emotionally equipped to say goodbye to Shambala, even if the smart money says buy a different boat. Uncle Vic’s stewardship lectures took root in me a long time ago.

Any information on cost of the 8LV’s, fit, other options, or other relevant advice would be greatly appreciated.

As always, thanks in advance.

John,
I can't tell you anything about the 8's.
I'm doing the 6's right now before they go obsolete.
My pricing was $23.7 each side w/gears.
From what I understand they are discontinuing them like the 4's due to EPA.

floridaskater wrote:John,
I can't tell you anything about the 8's.
I'm doing the 6's right now before they go obsolete.
My pricing was $23.7 each side w/gears.
From what I understand they are discontinuing them like the 4's due to EPA.

23.7 a side with gears and guages is a deal. In 2008 I was quoted 25 a side, and the cummins reman numbers were too good to pass up. I saved about 5 aside going with the Cummins 270's.

Steve,

Thanks for that. It's great to know some current numbers on the 6LP's. I am waiting to see what the additional cost on two more cylinders looks like, but I may jump on a pair of 6LP's if the cost puts a Yanmar solution in the range that makes Cummins QSB 5.9's look like a more prudent purchase.

Thanks!

Tony,
I'm using my existing guages except the tachs. There is a cable Yanmar provided to allow me to use the existing guages...about $50 bucks I recall.
They will show up Tuesday. This includes the engines, brackets, and ZF gears, new w/warranties. I liked the numbers I studied on these engines and decided to go with them before they pulled them from marketing. Plus my old engines had enough...er rather I had enough of them.

John,
My CATs 3208NA are like 36.1" wide. I still have 8D's outboard of each engine. Its tight but theres room.

John,
Epa sunk the 6lp. The 8's are based on another toyota engine used in the land cruiser. Dont believe the fuel numbers. That engine over the road is reported to be a thirsty beast. Marine application isn't going to be better.

I wouldnt consider the 8 at all at this time.

The 6lys in Buddy Boy were on the way out in the 315 and 350hp. It was replaced by the lp in the 315 range.

I got one of the last pair available for Jim as he didnt want the new lp at the time. Great engine in that hp, run forever.

As far as Steves good price, its nice to know people that know people that have favors due.

Bruce,

Thanks for that information.

What would you would recommend at this point if I am unable to find a pair of 6LP's before they are all gone?

Thanks in advance,

John

Cummins 6bt remains.

Walter,

Funny you should mention the 6BT's. I know Wayne Fultz (Ironman) put 6BTA remans in a few years back. I was just on the Cummins website looking at the sell sheet for the remanufactured engines. Does anyone have an idea what the 6BT/6BTA remans cost?

Also, I see there are 6BT's available at 210 hp, and 6BTA's available in both 260hp and 315 hp. What is the preferred hp? Here in Northern California I probably average a 22 knot cruise offshore with 24 knots inside the SF Bay.

Any fuel burn/cruise speed information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

John

At this point Yanmar is going to be a dead dog.

Reman cummins would be my remaining choice. Steyers are good, just way to pricey.

We are running out of power choices for the 31 that aren't crapped up with computers.

Given your requirements, I would suggest the 260. I have the 210s and cruise @ 20-22 kts based on how clean my bottom is. Fuel burn is 7-8 nmpg per engine. Simple as hell as well as to maintain.

Do I go through my local Cummins dealer to inquire about reman availability and pricing or is there some other entity I need to contact?

Cummins pushes business into their dealer networks.
Generally speaking the dealers have the ability to sell at a lower price then the main branches (cummins cal pacific, northwest etc). Here in Jersey I can buy parts cheaper through CB Marine than I can right from Cummins Power Systems in Bristol PA.

That being said get pricing from everyone. The 260's are a great fit. Get the big mufflers and be sure to be prepared for lots of sound down. The top end of the mechanical B's are very noisy.

If I go with the 260 hp remans, do I need to upgrade from 1-3/8" shafts to 1-1/2"?

Also, what about exhaust size, intake dorade boxes, etc?

Thanks in advance!

John

With the 210's I kept the 1 3/8" shafts, no dorado boxes etc. With 260's, you're on the edge, with the 315's definitely.

John I would recommend the 1.5" shafts. Your going to run 1.5-1 gears and a 20x23" 4 blade wheel

5" exhausts are required for the install, if you keep the engines as far forward as possible in the boxes you can use the factory supplied exhaust risers with no problem

Just remember you are going to bleed money for a while and be prepared for over runs including redoing engine beds if necessary, bulkhead repair fuel lines control cables wiring blah blah blah

Try and do it right the first time so you never have to go back.

JP,

Thanks for that.

My options are sort of working themselves out after a week of asking questions, calling dealers, boatyards, looking at other boats on Yachtworld, re-reading some of Capt. Patrick's building tips on the old website, etc.

Here are some interesting summarized tidbits from what I have learned so far:

My first quote of a Yanmar 6LP was from Mastry Engine in 2003 right after I got Shambala. With gears & trolling valves, each 6LPA-STP was $20,105. Today, I got a quote from the Yanmar dealer I trust for essentially $32,000 with gears & trolling valves.

I found a pair of 4LH's that are brand new, never used that a different Yanmar dealer has. That quote was $30,000 with gears, and he recommended the Cummins remans as a better value with a better warranty and a better company to deal with behind them.

The new 8LV's that are "Yanmar's new big block replacement solution" are $42,000 with gears & trolling valves. I guess I missed the memo that the Yen was surging against the dollar. Sayonara Yanmar...

The summary of calls to three different Cummins distributors/dealers is as follows:

The remanufactured Cummins 6BT 210 hp (which the Cummins West guy told me actually produce 220 hp) are just a shade over $14,000 plus a core charge of $3537, gears not included. Call it $18,000 without gears.

The 6BTA at 270 hp gets hit with some kind of strange premium that makes it more expensive than the 6BTA at 330 hp. I was quoted $19,290 plus the core charge of $3537, and warned that the aftercooler is mounted on top of the engine, adds an additional 2" of height, and might not fit without modifications to the motor box. Does anyone know about any fit issues with the 260/270 hp 6BTA in a B31? That would be too bad if it doesn't fit, as this seemed like a nice compromise between 210 & 330 hp and the savings of not necessarily having to change shafts and add dorade boxes seemed to make the premium worth it.

The 6BTA 330 hp is $18,730, plus the $3537 core charge. No gears included.

I spoke briefly with Wayne Fultz (Ironman) who told me he has the 330 hp 6BTA's and runs a 1.2:1 gear, has his original 1-3/8" shafts and couldn't be happier with the 31 knots he's getting. I'm assuming that works because there is less torque put on the shaft when coming up on plane. I had only heard of 1.5:1 gears being used.

Suffice it to say that I have culled my options to Cummins only. The angel on one shoulder with the 6BT 210 hp is telling me I rarely cruise faster than 22 knots offshore in Northern California, fuel consumption is better, and the money saved from engine cost, not having to replace the shafts, or put in dorade boxes will be appreciated when I run into something unexpected.

The devil on the other shoulder with the 6BTA 330's is saying "speed is fun" and 2 gph difference in fuel burn at 22 knots only equates to 27 more miles anyway, I can always add some fuel capacity with a new tank, and it's cheaper than the 270 hp 6BTA.

I wish I knew if the 260/270 hp engine would fit without trouble.

In a perfect world, I would haul the boat, pull the 454's out, pull the fuel tank, prep & paint the bilge & engine compartments, add new sisters and 6061 caps to the stringers, put the boat back in the water and wait so I could get some of this started without making a decision right now. But when I think about pulling 2200+ lbs out of the boat, I can't help but think it would pop up like a cork and list to one side (not to mention the nightmares I would have that a prop shaft slipped out).

That's where I am right now...

I have a .pdf of the 270hp engine/installation drawing if anyone can look at that and determine whether if will fit under the motorbox.

Boat wont lean with the engines out just sit a slight higher.

No way the shafts will slide out with prop and coupling on.

Bruce, thanks for that tidbit. That will at least enable me to get this project started.

John,
you can call Mastry direct in St. Pete for a much better price on Yanmar 6's.

John

I put the 270 Reman in my 31. Fit like a glove. We had to shave down the engine bets. My beds were still solid. I run light, no tower or hard top. I can tell you that at 2200 RPM's I am up around 23 knots. At 2400, I am close to 25 and with the right tide I hit 26. Wide open, she makes 30 knots without even thinking about it.

Funny in 2008 when I bought mine, I had no core charge or any of the other BS. I was given stratight numbers. With transmissions and guages It cost me around 37 for the pair before the state got it's share. I know others who put the same engines in there 31's who's numbers came in close to mine and they purchased their's about a year or so earlier than I did.

The 270 i perfect, you can run it at 22 knots, the engines will last forever. If you need to push it up she will move. Figure between 15 to 18 gallons an hour depending on how much weight you carry.

I upped the shafts to 1 1/2 and I was lucky, mine had the 5 inch exhaust so Ikept the mufflers and did not need to do any retrofitting at the transome. If you go up you will need 6 inch exhaust.

Remember, less maintence since the turbo is fresh water cooled so you don't need to tear it apart every couple of years.

Good luck.

are you guys in the dark? yanmmies are crying the blue`s it is over. the stand alone and will be just a token in the future there old policies kill them. a while back a small company in canada invented a injector system for natural gas in a convention diesel. westport now on stock market became cummins/westport and caterpillar /westport . used in all busses in NYC,Nassau, suffolk county and starting in fed-x and ups.all new school busses now equipped . now the big japanese cont. equipment co. took on cummins as oem as well as new holland. every major diesel engine company uses the same turbo manufacturer except yanmar even if the entire engine is from germany (mann) . you go with the best no matter what, cummins and everyone else uses bosch injection don`t they.but all use zf gears (italy) sport fishing boats. to say you use what best service you get in your area is ridiculous in 2012 cummins by about 180 to 1. cummins worldwide service/parts of course you could be befooned by your local boat yard but look at the numbers,phone book,internet .

Tony,

That information is EXTREMELY helpful!

Would you elaborate a little bit on what you mean when you said you had to "shave" down the engine beds"? Did you rebuild the engine beds per Capt Patrick's description on the old site (http://www.bertram31.com/proj/tips/engines.htm), shave the stringers down a little, put new sisters in, cap them with 6061 aluminum, and put in new ramps or are you saying you used the existing engine beds and took them down a bit?

The reason I ask is I looked up the engine specs for the Yanmar 6LY's that went in Buddy Boy. Those engines are 33.2" tall with the exhaust elbow up (meaning there is a way to make the tallest point a little less tall. The 6BTA 270 hp engines are 32.96" tall, but there is no give in that dimension. I'm wondering if I have to take part of the stringer down to get the outboard tranny corner of the engine in the right position.

When I talked to Wayne Fultz today (Ironman), he said he was going to send me pictures of a template Bob Lico built to help him figure out how to measure for the ramp heighth & engine angle. I'm hoping that template will allow me to figure out how I have to build the stringers and ramps to fit the 6BTA 270 hp in.

Either way, at least now I know they can fit.

Thanks,

John

Hey Bob,

Not in the dark anymore...

Thanks,

John

John,
Please pass on the template pictures when you get them. I just pulled the 454's, and now i'm in the process of figuring out the new bed dimensions for my cummins 300's.
Thanks,
Eric

Wayne is in Ohio for the next week or so taking care of some family stuff. As soon as I get them, I will post them.

Bob Lico, do you have any pictures of template you sent Wayne?

Bob, for me it's not rediculous. In my area of the Bahamas the only diesel dealer service center is Yanmar. Plus I could still purchase new 240's or new 315's even after the EPA nonsense today or next year. These were the right choice for me, maybe not for everyone else in every situation.

Like Tony said the 270's fit very well, they are ideal for the B31. There are 5 repowered berts with 270's right around me in 3 different B31 configurations. All look factory as completed. Having a boat with 330's I believe the 270's are a better fit, we run long distances to fish and generally run 16.5kts at night and then whatever the ocean will allow us during the day, very rarely am I coming out at 29.5kts (full cruise) its usually 20-24kts.

By keeping the engine as far forward in the engine box as you can and using an IRM220 (ZF) you'll fit and the tombstone heat exchanger should fit as well. If you have the smaller engine boxes you may have to "adjust" them. Keeping the engine forward will help keep the gear linkage ahead of the aft engine room bulkhead.

In most cases the old wood stringers are reuseable, they may get padded out and wrapped in glass but ours and most of the ones around here sit on good old mahagony and are glass coated. We've pretty much launch the boat 6 times per season, sometimes at 22 kts on one with no back and sometimes at 9kts cause its just that big. The engines have never moved and alignment is perfect,,,,if you can't grab the shaft with your hand and turn it your alignment aint right. Tony's stringers may have been shaved to fit the mounts for the 270's and allow the top of the engine to clear.

Oh yeah and when you take the engines out and float a stripped out hull they are very very tender, most of the transom is out of the water- ours was floated in december after demo was done and we didnt even have to plug the exhaust holes.

Enjoy the project, and see if you can find a smoked out b series block they make a very accurate template with a gear attached to them.

johnv8 i don`t have a photo of jig and gave the jig to somebody in NJ. some years back however the difference between my jig and the rest was that i place the 4" x 4" center piece (which represented the centerline of crank) into the chop saw and cut at 10 degree angle to represent the output angle of ZF IRM 220A gears then attach a 2" x8" piece of wood (gears ) then i then bolted a 11/2" propeller coupling to the bottom of 2x8 to represent output flange of ZF gears. the centerline both horizontal and vertical is your "bullseye" for the shaft.do not have those dimensions at the moment.
westport stock going up every day now at $32.00 a share. both cummins and cat are gear up to offer in trucks. volvo is also into it but on smaller scale yanmar is now locked out. china and australia literally destroyed yanmar presents and sent them home with there tail between there legs. cannot imagine a huge crane,pay loader ,escavator with rubber belt instead of gears from crank to camshaft,1968 vintage oil filter --real stupid for in the field conditions i am sure the mechanic went back to the shop to clean oil canister ---yea right!!!! 1984 fan belts instead of serpitine belt another genius move yep they save weight luckily they were not making parachutes!!! cummins has world wide presents and can 10 ---330hp remans at your doorstep within one week 631-820 3822

Bob,

Thanks for that description of the jig. I couldn't quite picture it when Wayne was describing it, but I get it now with the 10 degree chop saw comment. I can do the down angle on my table saw. That is really a simple, yet very smart way to do the alignment.

Wayne says he has pictures. I'll post them as soon as I get them.

Thanks,

John Vietor

John
My beds were solid no rot. So we took a power planer and cut them down and then capped them in aluminum. We replace the bulkhead behind the engines so we just made the opening big enough to handle the ZF transmissions. How far you take down the engine beds is your choice. We also made up L brackets that we bolted through the engine bed stringer then bolted the other side to the rear bulkhead and did the same thing with the front bulk head.

To give your self room to get under the engines, you can cut them down low enough, cap them then build them up with a ramp if you want. The choice is endless. I can check this weekend to measure how far down we took them. I don't remember off the top of my head. I should be able to tell where they originally were.

My beds were solid and that is key. I had no rot.

Thanks Tony. The most important thing from my perspective is that you & JP cleared up the question of whether the 6BTA 270 hp engines would fit. The Cummins West guy and two other Cummins dealers told me that engine was too tall and wouldn't work without modifying the motor boxes so the motor boxes were taller than a stock boat.

As far as the engine beds go, my only frame of reference on engine beds are the pictures and engine installation description on Buddy Boy's rebuild that Capt Patrick has up on the old site. I have to admit, I haven't paid a lot of attention to how engine beds were built when looking at pictures of other repowers until now. Listening to your description, I get what you're saying about the possibilities for engine bed solutions being endless.

I really do appreciate the help.

John

When I was looking there were a couple of things that sold me on the 270's and while price played into it, there are other important factors. A ride on JohnJackson's boat showed me the boat got up and moved, plus the Cummins dealer said flat out, it's a 31 foot boat. Unless you are crossing the bay, how often are you going to be able to get full Cruise out of her. I think JP confirms that with his numbers.

I don't know about California, but here in NJ, you go out in the morning, it is dead calm, by 1 in the afternoon, the wind shifts out of the South East and you get a chop that will slow you down. You can almost set your watch by it in the summer. Then it will flatten out again later in the day.

You will not regret going with Cummins. The only thing I will tell you, the paint job on the Cummins is horrible. Repaint them before you put them in.

i don`t have the critical diamention from center line of 4x4 to centerline at 10 degrees mounted propeller coupling but i will get it. john when you install use boat till end of season before verification by cummins thus stretching warrantee to three years. every single part of that engine available within 24hours or deal with tony athens there in ca. for advise and maintenance parts but filters and such on line fleet guard filters are available every ware. install block warmers before installation.you will be getting storm block engines built starting in 2005 so every bit of information about cummins you know he said she said totally disregard!!!! australlia uses 6bta driven pumps to keep water out of iron ore mines running 365 days a year as well as generators for mines change out after 100,000 hours!! peru,south africa,mexico copper mines same deal. warehoused at JFK airport engine shipped any ware there is a landing stip any ware in world 24 hours a day.

Tony,

No doubt about it, here in Northern California we cruise offshore on average at about 22-24 knots in the morning and 18-22 in the afternoon. In the SF Bay, mornings are usually calm and you can fly for about 12 nautical miles until you are outside the Golden Gate. Our wind and weather generally comes out of about 310 degrees. Yes, we have wind in the afternoon that makes things snotty. However, they are usually following winds rather than wind driven head seas, so we get a little bit of a break. The SF Bay in the afternoon can be significantly more miserable than offshore because of the acceleration of wind between the land masses the Golden Gate bridge connects.

All that said, I couldn't agree with you more about the 6BTA's in the 270 hp configuration. Realistically, it offers a high cruise for Northern California that is usable, with fresh water cooling features that limit maintenance and corrosion. It's a perfect marriage between practicality and fun...the angel on one shoulder and the devil on the other both win with the 6BTA 270 hp configuration.

I'm baffled that they are more expensive than the 6BTA 330 hp engines, but whatever. They are a good fit for my needs. My plan moving forward will be to prep everything that I can to keep costs down. To the extend that I can avoid any major surprises, I'll be going with the 6BTA 270 hp engines.

I really appreciate everyone's input and help with this. Clearly, without your help I would have relied on the incorrect information I got from the Cummins distributor and dealers that the 270 hp engine would be too tall.

Bob,

I really appreciate the help with that jig. Wayne Fultz flat out said your jig made proper installation on his boat a breeze.

You bring up another interesting point that, coming from a gas background, I know little about - diesel fuel filtration. Tony Athens' website at Seaboard Marine offers fuel filtration packages. I've read everything on his website about his philosophy on fuel filtration and want to make sure I am properly filtering my diesel fuel. Am I correct in assuming that I either use Racors or something like Tony sells (see link below) as a "pre-filter" and then reduce the micron size of the engine mounted filter?

http://www.sbmar.com/Products/SM-FF_Main.php

port engine; remove spin on adapter and relocate to opposite side next to oil filter there are thread bosses right there .now both 5micron fuel filters face gangway change both oil and fuel filters in three piece suit . i have a photo some ware in tuxedo . yes tony has the right deal there in duel filters (30 micron) or single raccor 900 ma.

John

I understand where Tony Athens is coming from on the filtration, but here is what I am not getting. Everyone keeps on saying that changing Tony's filters at sea is breeze. To me it looks potentially messy. You know when they quit on you it will be in 8 foot seas. Now you are rocking and rolling trying to not spill the diesel as the boat pitches. Good luck.

Racor, unscrew top, lift out filter, drop a new one in,put the top on. Seems simple enough to me.

tony what they are not saying is you absolutely have to fill that spin on right to the very top with a container of diesel and funnel. no way in hell you can fill that racor with prime pump on engine however tony has that outboard primer set up he uses so it is feasible to do a at sea change filter with his Complete set up so much easier with racor and spare filter on board.i have done the screw on filter on engine at sea not to bad with large zip lock bag (keep in mind my engine box bottom panels slide out in two seconds.)always have gallon container of fresh diesel on board!

Giff if you give me your word you did not vote or support Obama I am sure we have another template and wooden templates for the ramps.the cummins remans.come with Barry mounts,engine harness ( don't need cummins gauges) and drop right in a real walk in the park. Use your old struts with thin wall bearings.same footprint as your 504 ' your 504 can be sold for crane barges here in New England everyone need one from sandy damage .exhaust is easy or hard if you want ultimate cockpit space you have to go up And over to the outside of boat that takes some doing then you order without cummins exhaust elbows.

Bob,
I just sent you a pm...
Thanks,
Eric

Bob,

Will you take pictures of the templates before you ship them off.

Thanks,

John Vietor

Eric I know you sent pm.but I see we have a few brothers doing the same repower.hex nut comes out with large monkey wrench (no teeth) 1/2 adapter then 1/2" fuel valve , use one for port and one for starboard center is 3/8" for gen set.All thread absolutely no clamps all the way to port starboard Reccor then on to port side fuel block on each engine , 3/8" line to raccor on back IDE of gen set.

Be set filter

Raccor for starboard engine

I just checked my post this stupid IPad keeps correcting words I don't want it to. That is Genset not beset .