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I was looking around my toy chest and saw that I could squeze something else in there. Any comments, pros or cons, on this gun and caliber, and, any info on new and upcoming ammo.
Thanks.
John.

John,

Forget it. It's a novelty gun at best. Another high velocity pea shooter. Hell, just try finding ammo and once you do, prepare for sticker shock.

A 9mm, (another HV pea shooter), is a better choice. But if you want a real pistol, get one chambered for .40 or .45. If you just gotta' have a pea shooter, go .357 magnum...

Also, defensive hand guns should be for stopping power at close range. The 5.7x28 is more like a rifle round. A waste...

Yo' Fren,

Patrick

Amen Patrick, never been a big fan of anything smaller than 357. But I carry a 380 alot because its small and easy to carry. Not first choice.

John, My pistol instuctor compared a .45 caliber to getting hit with a sledge hammer...you dont get up....a 9mm will go through the bad guy the bad guys car and the car behind that..my gun of choice is smith and wesson .45 1911 all black stainless...BH

S&W J frame 38

S&W M&P 40. Sweeeet

Ed Brown, 1911 Kobra Carry, 45 Auto

I know that most of you know that I'm blind as a bat...went blind about 20 years ago and can't see a lick,so, you guessed it..I'm not the best shot in the world. I'm reluctant to go with a single stack 1911 because of fumbling with the safety and light bullet capacity...I much prefer a double action pistol with a higher magazine capacity and trigger configuration such as a Glock...I know up North that there's issues with clip capacities but not here in Tx. I like to partake in a nightly cocktail or 5 and I might be feeling a bit fuzzy and will want something easy to cut down cuz when he kicks in my door. I'm still waiting for Bass Pro to get in my Mossburg Chainsaw 12 ga pistol grip scatter gun. I know that the 5.7 isn't practical, but, for $1k brand new with 2000 rounds of armor piercing ammo...what the hell?
Many thanks,
John.

Maybe so, but if you're going to keep something cocked 'n locked, the Glock is a very dangerous weapon. If you spend a little time at the range with the right gun, the safety becomes second nature.

If you look at the 5.7 ballistics the round was originally designed for full auto and works very well for that.

Those ballistics do not transform into semi auto.

You want a small decent round with capacity go with the Keltec PMR 30 It holds 30 rounds of .22 magnum a really good varmint round, cheaper and easier to buy.

AP rounds are not condusive to self defense as they are designed to penetrate armor and soft tissue does not create enough resistance to really create devastating wounds.

Oh and AP rounds for handguns are a trip to club fed, federal law not Texas state. If it is true AP rounds and there's some question about that, its made not for armor plate but for body armor.

But there is NO substitute especially for one who has vision issues than a 12 or 20 gauge shot gun.

The FN or Bennelli pistol grip semi auto with mag extension cannot be beat for self defense.

Getting shot with something usually is better than throwing your socks at an intruder, but give yourself the best percentage of survival.


Now if this is just a wanna have item, and I can maybe get it past the old lady if I come up with the self defense angle then we've all been there done that. Have at it.

Taurus Judge in 410!!

Ditto the pump shotgun, the sound of chambering a round is well know to the Home Invasion Union members.

Personally, in addition to the pump loaded with 00 Buckshot, I carry a Ruger Redhawk .44 magnum stainless revolver with an 8" barrel. It is a very BIG gun, so big & shiny that the dumbest dopehead can see THAT MAN GOT A GUN. The Bride carries a petite .357 Colt stainless revolver also in stainless. We prefer revolvers for their simplicity.

And that reminds me, both guns' ammo is probably 20 years old and I need to go buy some new. How long will the stuff last indoors on the shelf?

UV

Still shooting WWII 30-06 rounds........

Sig Sauer P220 in 45ACP - CCW size with 6 in the clip and 1 in the tube! My favorite for pure stopping power, that won't take out someone in the next room too!

Thanks Prof.....warning - don't use CX on ammo....it is so creepy it will get in the powder....I took some boxes of .22 LR my dad had given me that were sort of corroded but shot okay and cleaned them up with CX....every damn one turned into a click, click dud.

We shoot Glazier "safety bullets" in our revolvers - the ones with the blue tips that blow up inside the first guy. I love the moniker "safety bullets".

UV

Right.

The only thing those armor piercing bullets are good for is if you 'have to' shoot through your wife to get the bad guy.

Wifey will 'probably' survive, (so shoot a lot...) but the bullet will expand and slow down enough to do some real damage to the second object it hits.

"The only thing those armor piercing bullets are good for is if you 'have to' shoot through your wife to get the bad guy."

I hate it when you have to shoot thru the wife. But, sometimes she has to take one for the team. And by team, obviously I mean me and the dog.

i'll tell you one thing for sure....i ain't ever going over to john's house unannounced......and i hope they never throw him a surprise party.

i just carry a knife ...but its very sharp.

My 140lb Rottweiler never barked -- until after he ate someone! Between him, the Sig, the Stagecoach under the bed --- we didn't really worry about locking the doors.

randall
i was thinking the same thing.

be careful mike 30-06 military had corrosive primers until 1953.i see you guys playing with a/p rounds silly but ok just don`t play with the one`s that have orange paint on tip. ap are black tipped. morning wood i carry the same s& w - m&p .40cal hollow point 11 rounds. boat has mossberg ss mariner 12g a. with double o buck and home enough to stop platoon strength hurricane katriner rioters.

I hate it when you have to shoot thru the wife. But, sometimes she has to take one for the team. And by team, obviously I mean me and the dog.

If that ain't a bumper sticker, I don't know what is.

i just carry a knife ...but its very sharp.

When your first line of defense is the space between your ears, a knife will do just fine.

Bruce,
You said it...just trying to sneek one by the wife.
Rawleigh,
I looked at the Judge and the S&W Governor..I think that a pistol grip 12 ga will be the ticket.
Randall and Charlie,
You guys come on over late tonight for a fish fry...you don't need to knock, just come on in...
Tom,
I used to have a Sig 45, but traded for a Weatherby Mark V 300wm...even swap...couldn't pass it up. I haven't bought anything since my S&W 50 cal...which is a real kick to shoot...literally, so, will probably go with the Glock model 21 45 and the Mossberg Chainsaw 12 ga pump.
Thanks guys.
John.

JohnCranston wrote:I know that most of you know that I'm blind as a bat...went blind about 20 years ago and can't see a lick,so, you guessed it..I'm not the best shot in the world.

I can see the headlines now:

Blind Man totally destorys house while trying to shoot an intruder with a 12 guage. Intruder uninjured, blind man now homeless.

Ed Brown Special Forces 1911 .45 ACP, 12 gauge 3 inch magnum short stock and barrell with plug removed, 2 million CP battery handheld light and mineauture dashchund.Three next to the bed and one in it.The last item is the most dangerous.

Tony,
It's funny that you mentioned that. My wife said that when the killers kick in the back door and storm into the house, to wait untill they run through the new kitchen before I start shooting...also said not to aim towards the fireplace or the big screen tv. So, with that said, my shooting zone went from 360 degrees down to a square foot. I started off wanting a 45 Tommy gun, and, now I'm down to a Daisy pop gun with a cork and string attached. I guess that I could get a knife like Randall and swing for the bleachers... Don't be supprised if you see me on an upcoming episode on the ID channel.
John.

I have a Colt Lightning .32 cal. octagonal-barrel, pump-action rifle that Dad bought at an auction in the fifties. When I inerited it there were shells from the sixties with it. They fire just fine, but if there is the slightest corrosion on them they won't eject. What a pain but not bad for a hundred and thirty years old.

Timely news from the tiny state of Connecticut. If it wasn't true, it would almost be funny. You don't have to worry about burglers, you have to worry about your drunk next door neighbor playing with high caliber firearms!

Old Saybrook Resident Nearly Shot While Doing Dishes, Police Say
John Kelly, 45, was arrested by Old Saybrook Police for allegedly firing a .40 caliber handgun, which almost struck his neighbor, who was doing the dishes at the time.

6:48 a.m. EST, February 23, 2012
OLD SAYBROOK—
An Attawanhood Trail resident fired a gun in his home while under the influence Wednesday night, nearly striking his next door neighbor, police said.

The bullet, fired from a .40 caliber handgun, traveled from John Patrick Kelly's home at 35 Attawanhood Trail into 37 Attawanhood Trail, narrowly missing the homeowner as she washed dishes in the kitchen, police said.

The bullet went through a solid wood cabinet and then through a stainless steel sink.

Kelly was arrested and charged with carrying a firearm while under the influence, unlawful discharge of a firearm and second-degree reckless endangerment. He is being held with bail set at $50,000 pending his arraignment at Superior Court in Middletown.

As long as there are humans, there will be stupid human behavior.

What the nanny overseers want to always do is create another law, ban, restriction take your pick all in the name of protecting us from ourselves.

You can't fix stupid, yet they continue to try.

The story gets better - the gentleman in question was in fact out on bond regarding assault charges and pending his completion of his drug program, and was also found to be in possesion of a loaded 30.06, an HBar with 8 fully loaded magazines, a loaded 357, a loaded 380 and the 40 caliber.

The neighbor was lucky he was only playing the 40!

Tom

No permits in Connecticut? He couldn't have them with that list of violations if they had Permits...OR someone wasn't doing their job.

Walter, yes, Connecticut has CCW permits. However, this rocket scientist was playing with them in the privacy of his own home. Either he had acquired them prior to his arrests, or, he got them illegally. Up until 15 years ago, you could buy a long gun in CT and walk out the door, no permit and no back round check. And, best of all, no FFL paperwork either!

We looked at the FN P90 subguns for work, as the firearms instructor, I declined. Uses the same ammo as in the Five 7 pistol, which is WAY expensive, and HARD TO COME BY, at that time, only purchased through FN. They also penetrate too far, too much liability. We carry Glock 23's, .40cal and went with H&K UMP subguns to stay with the same cal ammo, adn they are proven guns.

As for the Glock, yes, no actual "safety" per se. But, with proper training and handling they are no more dangerous than any other weapon, 1911 style included. Keep your finger off the trigger until you intend to "stop" the threat, and all is well. From a cost and reliability standpoint, they can't be beat. I have carried the same 23 for 15 years, NOT ONE MALFUNCTION, and I shoot it. I carry a 27 subcompact .40 off duty, just cause its a little easier to conceal.

Agreed, the 5.7 is novelty. It has a purpose but home defense is not one of them. Having the PS 90 or P90 to go with it in a combat situation would be a good example of why the gun is good. Same ammo for rifle and pistol.

Now on the other hand you should buy it since the economics are good. That is about every 50 round box is about 20 bucks online to 30 at Cabellas if my memory serves me correct with ammo prices.

If you decide not to buy shoot me a PM! That is a hell of a deal.

Shotgun wins hands down for home defense. As long as you are 100% with mechanics of combat/tactical reloads and manipulation of weapon in close quarters. Keep the pistol hot and handy. The pistol is for fighting your way to your long gun.

Happy hunting!

John,

I just checked pricing. The blue tip ammo which is not AP is just under 800 dollars for 2000 rounds. If the deal you mentioned is AP ammo please buy it! That stuff is expensive and I have never seen the gun alone for 1000!

http://gun-deals.com/

You can check this link for pricing on just about everything from cheapest to most expensive. It tells you cost per round. AP ammo is damn near imposible to find other than private auctions/sales. Blue tip "varmit" ammo is everywhere. Still a fast round that will penetrate damn near anything.

Kevin,
I bought it today for $900...done deal...ammo came from the UK.
Greg,
I was torn between the 21 and the 23, but, a buddy of mine, said that, you can buy an extended round Glock clip 9mm and the 40, but, not for the 45. I guess that you don't really need any more rounds for the 23...I think that it's 15 in the clip. It seems like most of the Houston police carry the Glock 23. That's what I'm going with.
Thanks again,
John.

John,

The standard 23 holds 13 in the mag, 1 in the pipe. They by far at not as pretty as MANY other guns out there, but for cost/reliability they are hard to beat. I particularly don't like the sub compacts (27), which I have. We used to carry the full size 22 .40, that's when I bought a 23 for off duty. A year later was the 10rd mag limit. Our distributor offered an even up swape for our 22's for any other gun sine the mags were not stamped LE/GOV use only, and were grandfathered for sale, fetching up to $200 each! We did, and switched to 23's, leaving me with 2! I got the same deal, 23 for the 27 even swap. For off duty carry, it's easier to conceal. But the in my opinion, is hands down the perfect size for every day carry, can be concealed pretty easy, recoil is minimal, carries ample rounds, and has good stopping power. They are also EASY TO work on and maintain. While they don;t require much (if any), should they, you could do it yourself with parts from the internet and a youtube video. U should not say that as an amorer, it honestly its that simple. I personally am on the hunt for an AR platform, preferably one that runs on a piston and wil chamber 5.56 so that it will eat that and .223.

Greg

Double check that 5.7 for AP.
If it is dump it. Owning a pistol chambered for AP whether you intend to use it or not will constitute a violation of federal law.

Greg,
Don't get caught up in that whole piston vs gas debate.
Gas uppers have fired millions of rounds without issue and I personally shot a few thousand rounds on two day training without any cleaning with no malfunction.

The bigger issue now a days is cheap crap ammo, okay for plinking not for serious use and the many cheap ass AR makers that have popped up to cover the low price market.

I don't use anything but IMI ammo for AR. No wolf, privi, fiocci even lake city will ever see the chamber.

Unless you are running a can, there is basically little or no reason to go piston on the AR platform.

If Eugene thought it needed a piston, he would have designed it with a piston. Now, he might have been a Stoner, but he darn sure understood weapons.

Never had an issue running a can on semi or full rock and roll with gas uppers.
Again I run the IMI blue tip sub sonic with zero cycling issues.

There may be confusion with the designation of the rounds.

Any 5.7 round should tear through soft body armor. Threat level IIIA is only good for stopping pistol rounds in general.......that is where the 5.7 comes in. The run of the mill blue tip is readily available but not designated AP. It is still going to penetrate soft armor when fired from the pistol. The AP is black tip and can be up 600 dollars for a box of 50. You got a hell of a deal regardless.

Now you just need to find a PS90 to go with it!

Like Bruce said, not too many direct gas impingemnet AR's out there having malfunction problems. Dirty as a gun can get they still run fine. I have tested several to see how bad I could get them. Dump some oil or any liquid for that matter in it and it will function just fine.

I own a gas piston AR but like most of my toys it has never been fired.

You can't go wrong with a Glock.

That penetration is what I was talking about in a previous post. But if indeed true AP designated rounds as defined by uncle sam and his band of not so friendly folks at the ATFE, then civilian ownership of AP for a pistol is no even though it may fit the long gun version also.

http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIG1.html

Federal statute

I did not know that. So in a nuthsell, AP is ok in a long gun whether it is a .50 cal or 5.56? But the pair of guns tht shoot the same such as the FN's it is a no no to have AP around a pistol? Just want to make sure I understand it correctly. So many laws.

I agree mostly with the piston debate. I spent a week at instructor school with a loaner Bushmaster, which was a POS! My problem is, I'm a retard. Due to my left eye dominance and right handedness...I shoot a handgun right handed, but a rifle lefty. It actually is a benefit with it comes to transitions from long gun to handgun...but shooting an AR lefty, you get a lot of gas blown in your face. I never noticed it during my training...I just accepted it. That is until I returned and we got our H&K 416 with is piston operated. OH MY GOD! I could shoot all day and not have gas and powder blowing across my face out of the bolt! I agree, with a quality gas AR, functioning is not an issue with quality ammo. But I don't think as a lefty shooter and it being my own gun, I can go gas operated. If I wasn't retarded, would not be a question.

Depending on the vintage of the bushmaster, it might just be a pos.
They got bought up and the quality has tanked.

Besides in their good day Bushy can't compete with Hk.
Awesome weapons.

Kevin,
If you have true AP ammo that fits a pistol and have possession of said pistol, it is a violation even though you may also own a rifle in the same caliber.
AR AP is fine except if you own an AR pistol. If you do, it's illegal.

Wow!...I got a woody that won't quit! I can't wait to shoot someone!
John.

John,
When you come up in May I'll take you over to the range and you can shoot my Glock and a few other things I have that go "Bang" while your in town.

If you are defending yourself in Freeport be careful where you aim! If you accidently snipe the hot neighbor lady accross the channel i'll be pissed!

Mark,
What about if I took out her sugar daddy? Would that be ok?
John.

After alot of research the last couple of weeks, I compared the Glock 23 and the FNX S&W 40. We went and checked out both of them today, and, ended up getting the FN. It feels much like Pam's Beretta 92FS but, maybe a bit lighter fully loaded with 15 rounds. Pam and I will put a few hundred rounds threw it next weekend, and, If she likes it, she can have it, and, I'll end up buying the FNX 45 when they come out in a couple of months.
Thanks for the input.
John.

Will that be the sofa piece, the bedroom piece or the $hitter piece?