bonding system

thereheis · Post by **thereheis** » Nov 3rd, '06, 06:53

i noticed when i tore out the old bonding wires that all were either green or the crimped end were broken,and the wire was very green way up from the ends..when i replace with new wire would it be better to uise tinned wire and solder the end instead of crimpit and heat shrink ? is there a coating i should put on the ends like a clear coat or something to keep the corrision out ??? and does ss and copper mix for the connecting screws or should i use brass screws ??? want to do right the first time ....

phil

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Nov 3rd, '06, 08:12

Phil,

Always use marine grade tinned wire for boat applications. For bonding from the copper strip to the item, use 8 ga green insulation wire & try not to exceed 1' in length between the copper strip and the item.

Crimp and heat shrink is fine, but use the heat shrink that has the adhesive interior coating. Make sure that you leave no gaps... Soldering is, of course, better if you want to take the time.

Never use brass in a marine application. Brass is copper alloyed with zinc. Only use bronze, which is copper alloyed with tin. #8x1" bronze machine screws, nuts, and lock washers, in boxes of 100 aren't all that expensive.

Stainless will work OK with pure copper, but you'd need to put a light film of TefGel to chemically issolate the dissimilar metals. You'll still have electrical conductivity.

All points of your bonding system should be tested for continuity on an annual basis and anytime there is visual evidence of a potential problem.

Br,

Patrick

TailhookTom · Post by **TailhookTom** » Nov 3rd, '06, 12:35

Capt. Patrick:

Time for one of my typically stupid questions, but since I am redoing my entire bonding system this winter -- does it make sense to paint the ends after I have made all the connections, using something like clear nail polish?

I want to do this right, and only once.

THanks,
Tom

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Nov 3rd, '06, 12:43

Tom,

As long as the connections and wiring is marine grade & installed as outlined above, there is little need to do a final coating. But if you want to further protect the mechanical connections, use Liquid Electric Tape

Br,

Patrick

TailhookTom · Post by **TailhookTom** » Nov 3rd, '06, 13:18

Capt. Patrick:

Thanks, I will do all of the above.

Tom

Geaux Deep · Post by **Geaux Deep** » Nov 3rd, '06, 13:34

Some different thoughts- please read this article on Marine Grounding Systems - http://www.sailmail.com/grounds.htm

Focus on the Summary in regards to the old days and the technique of bonding everything together. - RH

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Nov 3rd, '06, 15:14

That guy is incorrect in his non bonding ways.

Do not follow his advice unless you want your boat sitting on the bottom.

Internet authors are a dime a dozen.

TailhookTom · Post by **TailhookTom** » Nov 3rd, '06, 16:02

Bruce:

Thanks for the terrific response. Never ceases to amaze me the knowledge that is shared on here.

I forwarded the article to one of the guys that fishes with me and his resonse is "that guy is a moron." The guy that fishes with me is graduating from Boston University in December with three degrees -- astro physics, planer physics and earth science -- he is going to work for the government and hopes to fly the space shutttle some day -- one smart kid!

Tom

Geaux Deep · Post by **Geaux Deep** » Nov 3rd, '06, 19:38

Tom,

I am also an electrical engineer.

But before I would call anyone a moron I would recall what Will Rogers once said "Everyone is ignorant, just about different things"

May be I will learn something here about the proper grounding of my vessel.

The same grounding article appears in West Marine's Advisor at
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/st ... ystems.htm

Think about Ohms Law. Have your friend write two mathematical equations using Ohms Law. In one equation use the resistance of saltwater (R1) in the other use the resistance of # 10 copper wire (R2) and then solve both for I (current) given that the voltage will be the same between the same two points. The answer with the larger current will also have the largest electron flow. Where am I going wrong? - RH

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Nov 5th, '06, 11:14

That is the reason why #10 wire is not what you use in a bonding system and why Patrick said keep the length short when connecting to a flat copper strip that runs the length of the boat.

Yes if you do the bonding system wrong, you can have more problems than if you don't do one at all.

That does not make his assurtion right though. The problem with using ohms law for salt water is that all salt water does not have the same conductivity factor depending just how much saline is present.

Also just because West Marine has their name attached does not give it validity, nor does the fact that the author has an engineer rating.

Like any profession, a prefix or suffix added to your name does not make one an expert.
Maybe a legend in their own minds, but not an expert.

Years of real world application earns one the right to hang a shingle.

Bruce Creamer, C.I.

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Nov 5th, '06, 17:22

Alright Bruce, I'll bite....what is C.I.?

Tommy

Dave Kosh R.I.P. · Post by **Dave Kosh R.I.P.** » Nov 5th, '06, 23:41

OK. Inquiring minds want to know . The C.I. thing?
Oh yes I use tinned copper strap, the flexable stuff that looks like flat braid smashed about 1" or so wide. Works great. I never use the green wire in bonding but as Patrick mentioned if you do keep it shorter than 1". We look at Mohs here, the inverse of ohms meaning the degree of conductivity. So you want the fatest strap you can get your hands on and is practical enough for you fit in any given space. Allways Marine grade tinned copper. I use silver bearing solder for all my connections and Liqiud tape is a good product . As Patrick mentioned if you put a little bit of Tefgel on the connection you will not need anything else, but it will not hurt. The only brass screws I use are my impeller housing plates never on electrical connections. Stainless or tinned bronze or tinned copper.
Speaking of tinned. I even made strap material to look decent by using copper strap then tinning it with silver solder to use as hold down brackets on tubing. Not bad for a pinch homemade hardware. Lasts quite a while too. Dave k

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Nov 6th, '06, 08:28

Dave: Where did you get the braided copper and fittings for it?

Dave Kosh R.I.P. · Post by **Dave Kosh R.I.P.** » Nov 6th, '06, 13:07

Tinned Copper Sleeving

Or if you just need a foot I can send a sample but it is good stuff to keep around the boat. I used for the SSB counterpoise connections from all copper screening and all connections to main copper strap and to salon for ground connections. I've been using it in industry for years. Dave K

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Nov 6th, '06, 17:11

Thanks! How are you terminating it? Do you make copper solder on connecters to bolt to the strip or are you somehow soldering the mesh directly to the strap?

Dave Kosh R.I.P. · Post by **Dave Kosh R.I.P.** » Nov 7th, '06, 09:46

Rawleigh,
Depends what you are bonding it to. If you are bonding to a 4" or 5" wide copper strap I have used a 350 watt Soldering Gun successfully but not without the liquid flux first applied after thourghly cleaning the surface. Of course rosin flux is used on all electrical connections. The braid is very easy to solder as it's pre tinned. You can also bolt it after applying solder to the braid first then drilling your hole. If your just going to bolt it without soldering it then a good anti-oxident like Tef Gel or No-Ox must be used. When bonding to thicker surfaces bolting is a must with the former steps taken. I do not like rivits as they work their way loose eventualy. Hope this helps. Dave K

TailhookTom · Post by **TailhookTom** » Nov 7th, '06, 10:06

Dave:

Do you make roadtrips to the Northeast? Wouldn't you much rather be in snow/icey New England in February instead of the warm Florida sun? I'd love to have my boat be done like yours!

Tom

TailhookTom · Post by **TailhookTom** » Nov 7th, '06, 11:12

Geaux Deep:

My apologies to you -- I just saw your post -- I did and my friend did not mean you -- he meant the author of the article. Personally, I always sit in the corner with the dunce cap on when it comes to any of the electrical system -- hence my need to ask stupid questions with great regularity.

Tom

AndreF · Post by **AndreF** » Nov 7th, '06, 11:25

Cunning Individual
?

TailhookTom · Post by **TailhookTom** » Nov 7th, '06, 14:56

"certified intellectual"

Dave Kosh R.I.P. · Post by **Dave Kosh R.I.P.** » Nov 7th, '06, 16:05

Don't feel bad . I am an absolute expert of "many wrong choices" and a permanent pupil in the "School of Hard Knox" Dave K

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Nov 7th, '06, 16:30

Your both wrong.

Certified Insane

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Nov 7th, '06, 16:36

I know I know I know. Just for the record Bruce, I don't think you are a complete idiot. Kevin

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Nov 7th, '06, 18:09

Actually, Bruce is extremely bright. I was on the boat several times while he was doing the Yanmar repower on Island Girl, and I offered to help. He just laughed, mumbled "no thanks" and kept on working......he never even looked up. He told me later he preferred to work alone. So, I rest my case.....

Tommy

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Nov 7th, '06, 18:25

Tommy,
Moderately bright or some what dim please.
You'll have people expecting too much.

bertram31.com

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