bertram31.com

Hey guys, let me thank you in advance for your thoughts.

First thing in the spring I'd like to address the running gear on my boat, I've got a '69FBC with 454s.

During my survey a few things came up:
The starboard prop is dull and needs to be reconditioned or replaced.
The cutlass bearings need to be replaced.
The shafts may be slightly bent and need to be brought back to true.

What was suggested by the surveyor was:
Address starboard prop
replace cutlass bearing
Send out the shafts
allign engines
have the flanges machined (I don't know what this is)
Replacing the packing and shaft logs.

I am considering replacing both props with Nibral props, right now the 454s top out at 5000RPMs WOT which seems to indicate the boat is under proped. While I am doing all this I'd like to put in Capt Pat's rudders. What should I be replacing when I do the rudders?

I am hoping you guys can provide me with some specifics and give me an idea of what type of budget I'd need to have to get all of this done.

If I can address and upgrade all the running gear in the spring that would be a decent bulk of what "needs" updating. I am working on the electrical systems over the winter.

Thanks again.

Pete

i would upgrade the rudder shelf, if your putting in new rudders

Good call on the nibrals. You will benefit from them. I would recommend considering 4 blade vs. 3 as well.

I would assume that the "flanges" are the plates that connect the transmission to the shaft. You want the faces flat so they match up well, making aligning the engines a bit easier.

Dug

Best guys that I have ever dealt with on the subject of prop/strut/cutlass/shaft work is bossler sweezy located in bellport, NY... They have done all of my work...

Dug wrote:Good call on the nibrals. You will benefit from them. I would recommend considering 4 blade vs. 3 as well.

Any thoughts on the particular specs?

Whaler i am planning on using martins marine in islip.

I never ran 4 blades on 454's, but do recall I had something like a #5 cup. Lots and lots of cup.

Someone here bought my used 4 blade props when I re-powered, and I don't remember who. Maybe they will speak up and remind us what the pitch and diameter was...

Regardless a good prop shop should be able to help. Sorry to bail on the answer that easily...

Pete - sounds like your running gear is generally beat up - so with all of the items that your surveyor suggested, you are probably best served by planning to pull all of the running gear off the boat for a major refurb.

Start with your props. Sounds like the ones you have are beat up AND the wrong size...so your idea of getting new ones (or good used ones) sounds good. I havn[t bought props in a bunch of years - but i think a new 18" 3blade nibral prop is probaby 1000 or so...figure less than half of that if you find a good set of used ones that you can have tuned up (would recommend the propscan shops for the tuneup). There are plenty of guys here who could help dial you into the exact specs that you need.

Pulling shafts out is not that big of a deal IF you can get the flanges off the ends. These flanges are what bolts to your tranmission. The tranny has an identical flange on it and the two flanges get aligned perfectly paralell to each other and bolted together. While you have your shafts off for strightening, you should also have the flange that is attached to it "fit and faced" - this is what your surveyor means by having it "machined. The idea of "fit andfaced" is that the flange or coupler as its sometimes called get placed onto your newly straightened shaft and then the face of the flange is machined so that the face is perfectly perpendicular to the shaft. Once the this is done, you;ll have a nice smooth, clean face on your flange that will mate up nicely with your tranny flange AND will be perfectly 90 degrees with the shaft. ...all of this machining is not that difficult or expensive - but it is important so you eliminate possible sources of vibration. I purchased to 90+ inch by 1 1/2" shafts for my boat with new flanges and all required machining and the total bill was about 2000. The shafts, which were aquament 22 material were the expensive part and since you are just having your striaghtened, should be much less

While the shafts are out, you should replace the cutlass bearings - this shold be a total piece of cake with the shafts out of the strut - you could probably do it yourself easily - and i think a cutless is about 100 ea...or there abouts

Also - with the shafts out, you should take a careful look at your shaft tubes / packing glands. My boat has fiberglass tubes, but i think most of the boats have bronze type tubes that are bolted to the bottom of the boat. You need to be sure your's are in top shape, not scored and worn thin from the inside. Then, take a look at the rubber hose and stuffing box. If you even had dreams of using "dripless" stuffing boxes now is the time. I think they cost about 600 each of so. I perosnaly like the plain-ol bronze units packed with the gore fiber packing. But - eitherway, the time to replace these things is now, with the shafts out. AND if you ever thought about putting in modern fiberglass shaft logs, now would be the time. Capt Pat has the instructions in the building sectioin. This is the best solution if you have serious issues with your bronze shaft logs and want to put a really nice upgrade into this boat.

reassemble all of this stuff in the Spring carefully - then do a good engine alignment. I usually hire a guy to do this - again - not rocket science but to me this seems like one of those jobs where experience makes a humongous difference. Usually 400 bucks or so.

...the props are your high-dollar item here - but don[t ignore the rest of it. You wanna make sure you take a good look at the shaft log and stuffing box - since repairs to those items requires removal of the shafts - and you donp[t want to do it again if you don[t have too.

Joe that is some great info thanks! Hopefully someone will step up with a worthy prop suggestion.

In terms of the rudder shelf it is wood but was replaced in 2008 when the deck was rebuilt i believe but i will check.

I didnt realize the props were $1000 each. I will have to research further.

Pete

Pete - take a look around for used props. There are always some guys who have some that they would sell to you cheap. In terms of getting the right size, the key data requried is the appeture of the opening (the measurement from the center of the shaft to the closest point of the hull, the hp of the engines 9assume you 454's are 350hp) and the transmission reduction ratio.

- but before you go crunching data on various websites and calculators, you can just wait for one of the faithful here to tell you what works best...youhave a fairly common engine setup so there will be guys here who can just tell you - ...then you can tweek and tune with your local prop guy

Last time i was at my prop guys shop in NJ, i dropped of a pair of 20x25x 1/12" 3Blade nibral wheels. If those somehow could work for you, i'd sell em to you WAAAAAAAY cheaper than a set of new ones.

Pete-

I bought Dug's 4-blades. I think they're 17x15 w/#5 cup. That's what I remember Dug telling me at the time--I never checked the wheels--just put 'em on. I have a set of 18x18 3-blades that were on the boat. Both sets have worked find. I also have a '69 FBC w/454s and 1.5/1 gears. Check around, someone will have a set of used wheels for you.

From what you said, I'd drop the rudders, replace the rudder packing, bearings (cheap), and install a set of Capt. Pat's rudders. I'd also pull the wheels and shafts while the rudders are out (easier), have the shafts and wheels checked and see where you are. I'd replace the cutlass bearings while everything is apart, and check/repack the stuffing boxes. The flange thing is interesting--it makes sense but I hadn't heard about that before. I'm still pretty new to this inboard stuff.

While you're at it, and you're going to realign anyway, I'd redo the strut backing pads. The stock ones are undersized. Plenty of reading material on the site about it.

If you're going to do all this, go buy a can or 2 of Corrosion X, and start spraying the flange, rudder bearings/retainers, and anything else that looks you'll need to take it apart.

If you are going to do all this, I'd also reconsider your wet-slip for the winter plan. She's going to have to come out of the water anyway for a bit while you take care of your running gear--why not just pull her for the winter? The projects you're talking about would take me a relatively relaxed winter of weekends working at the boat. Beer and good tunes help--alot. I look forward to this time of year. Boating is almost over, but I get a few months with my B31 out of the water to take care of something she needs--very relaxing.

See if you need new shafts before you buy anything else. If you need shafts. I'd think about going to 1 1/2" over the 1 3/8" you probably have now. That way you'll be ready for a diesel repower.

John

PS--you're just getting started......

Ive got borg warner velvet drive model 10-18-004

The current props are bronze 3 blade 17" diameter and 16" pitch

The 454s are 330 hp

I am not going to do the work i will have a marina do it for me. Over the winter i plan on rewiring the boat some of that work i will do myself but also have a marine electrician to help with what i am not qualified to do. He is a B31 owner as well.

As far as the running gear goes i am hoping to have the boat hauled and worked on in march. This way ill have both projects done for next season

John,

Thanks for the reminder. I couldn't remember who bought them! I am glad you got 'em and that they are working well.

Peter, Your blades are not the right size. Either of what John has are right. You will be fine with them.

The 4 blade will be a smaller diameter and less pitch because you have more blades. But they are smoother, and more efficient at cruise. Thatis where you want efficiency anyway. Don't worry about the knot or two you lose at top end. That is not the measure of a 31 anyway...

Everyone will ask what your top end is, but what you want is efficiency at cruise. At least I think that's what you want! ;)

You are talking about these? "4-blades 17x15 w/#5 cup" Your saying I'll loose top end but gain efficiency at cruise. That works for me...

How much are new shafts and should I move up to 1 1/2 now even if I may not go to diesels for 5 to 10 years?

PeterPalmieri wrote:I am not going to do the work i will have a marina do it for me. Over the winter i plan on rewiring the boat some of that work i will do myself but also have a marine electrician to help with what i am not qualified to do. He is a B31 owner as well.

As far as the running gear goes i am hoping to have the boat hauled and worked on in march. This way ill have both projects done for next season

Never heard of a dull Prop...


Small tidbit of advice...try to avoid March Madness. Seems everyone gets the bug soon as the weather breaks and Prop Shops get backed up at that time of the year. I request my customers pull the Running Gear before Winter and let us do our thing when we are slow...equates to a better job at a better cost. Then again ... ya gotta do what you gotta do...so if it's March so be it.

Pete - remember that most of the time the enemy of good is better. Pull the props, then get someone to "mike" the shafts by turning them and measuring the "out of straight" with a micrometer. A few thousands out is okay. The main thing is to get the props right to have the engines turn the proper rpm at wide open throttle under a load. It sounds like your props are too small. Most of us view the better propping to be close to "square", i.e. the pitch in inches near the diameter in inches, say 18x18....try to avoid getting grossly "out of square", like 17x24 for example. Some pitch can be equalled by cupping. If there is no evidence of cracking on your existing shafts (they tend to crack around the keyways on both ends) stick with the old ones, old shaft logs and struts. Do change the cutless bearings (not hard) if there is ANY side play in them. Just try to get your existing running gear tuned up so you can use the boat and get familiar with it before you go hog wild. Capt. Patrick's oversize rudders are a must to make it all work right.

BTWj, you are a good listener and ask good question. A pleasure to have you aboard.

UV

Sim - During the survey the surveyor used a small hammer to tap on the props, the port prop rang like a bell while the starboard prop sounded like you were hitting concrete, "dull". He said this usually indicates corrosion but it could also be loose.

I actually spoke to the yard and discussed what I wanted to get done and they suggested mid March, I was more then happy to do it over the winter but went on their suggestion, that's why I am going to address electrical over the winter.

UV - One part of me says don't fix what's not broken. I could address the starboard prop, cutlass bearings and do the rudders and call it a day or replace everything new. If I pull the shafts I might as well address everything at that point. At least that's what most seem to suggest. There is absloutely play in the bearings...And since the props are painted I couldn't tell if it was corrosion or not.

I don't understand the "square theory" on the prop but will take your word for it. At some point I am going to need to do some additional homework of how and why a certain prop may or may not work for my boat. And what changes in the prop change what variables.

Peter

Before I repowered, I was spinning 18X19 3 Blade bronze on the 1 3/8 shaft. I had the mercruiser 454's with borg warner 11/2:1.

If you want I have one pair that are already trued up, the second should be good but need to be cleaned up.

If you are interested you can try them out in the spring. If they work for you I will cut you a good deal with part of the money going to the good Capt.

Grab that! Don't buy a set of Nibrals until you are sure of the size/pitch you really want. That sometimes takes a little while. An investment of that magnitude warrants some experimentation and you'll want to have a set of spares anyway. As far as the shafts go, I agree with Vic, especially because you have a bad set of Cutlass bearings. With that degree of slack, I find it hard to ascertain whether the shafts are true without removing them (unless they're really bent). Unless you're thinking of investing later in 270+hp Cummins diesels, you don't have to go to 1 1/2" shafts. I have 1 3/8" ones with my Cummins 210's swinging 20X20 cupped props and know of many others doing the same even with higher hp Yanmars. Right now you'll have enough unexpected places to throw money at. Learn what you like and don't like about the boat by using it, then make those decisions. It's a bit like buying expensive fly lines...they're all good, but some you like better than others. We'll talk later about catching Mako's on a fly off our LI waters. Walter

Tony Meola wrote:Peter

Before I repowered, I was spinning 18X19 3 Blade bronze on the 1 3/8 shaft. I had the mercruiser 454's with borg warner 11/2:1.

If you want I have one pair that are already trued up, the second should be good but need to be cleaned up.

If you are interested you can try them out in the spring. If they work for you I will cut you a good deal with part of the money going to the good Capt.

Tony thank you very much for the offer, I'll take them. I am more then happy to pay you for them and if they don't work out pass on that same deal to the next guy.

Want to shoot me an email peter_palmieri@yahoo.com

Pete

Thanks Walter. I am dying to catch a Mako, I had a 40lb pup on the fly and a blue shark about 140 lbs. Also some blue fin in the 40-60lb class and mahi to 15lbs. Most off shore guys don't appreciate me dragging my fly gear on there adventures. Thankfully I don't have to ask permission anymore.

Just the idea that you so casually toss around the term "throw money", not loving that! It's all about priorities, the rudders are a nice chunk of change but just about everyone is screaming at me to do it. Since that starboard motor has 2200 hrs I will really regret not doing them when I have to get home on one motor.

All excellent suggestions. Do most of it now (to the extent your checkbook allows) and you won't regret it later.

Just for reference, I am running the same engines and trannies but with 17x19 three blade props. Not sure what the cup is, but I will turn 4200 @ WOT. Cruise at 2800-3000 gives you a speed of 21 kts with a perfectly clean bottom.

Good luck with it. As John F. says, you are just getting started!

Peter-Nothing negative meant. Sorry if it sounded like that. Of course you have to set priorities and the rudders become more important especially if you have less confidence in one of your engines. Just trying to help. Walter

Peter,

The B31 hull is not the most efficient hull out there. That means it takes power to push it through the water. With your small props you more than likely have effects of cavitation instead of corrosion, though you never know.

The cavitation will eat little holes in the trailing edge of the blades. Cup addresses that cavitation.

That lack of efficiency converts to a lovely ride however. Particularly in a following sea.

D

the only cavitation i got was when my props were out of the water coming back from a/c

Walter no offense taken. Just talking through the issues. Money is going to be spent either way its a matter of figuring out what is essential to me being comfortable and confident on the water.

Tonys props could help my budget and send money to another essential.

Dug unfortunately i didnt take good pictures of the props when we did the short haul. At that point my focus was else where. Tonys props should do the trick i hope.

When i get a chance i will have to take some pics of the top of the rudder shelf to determine the rudders i need to order if i go in that direction.

Pete - many years ago, in the first year or 2 of this site, one of the Faithful, Capy, who's an engineer, did a study of props on B31s and their efficiency with various prop sizes, gear ratios, and engines. It should still be on the old site. It explains the "square" business and shows how efficiency goes up as the diameter and the pitch come together. As I recall, with diesels where you have a lot more torque at lower speeds than gas motors, the larger diameter props squared give the best efficiency and with gas motors the diameter has to be dropped to match the pitch since there is less torque. Anyway, the study Paul (Capy) did was very through and should be read to reach an understanding of what's going on with the props, gearing, and engine.

UV

Thank you

Peter

Sent you a PM let me know what you think.

My big blocks were rated at 350 HP each. Boat came from the factory with the 18 x 19's, turned up to 4200 on the engines. That is closer to where you want to be. I would cruise at around 19 knots burning around 25 gallons an hour.

With the 18 x 19's, you might just have to have a little cup added or taken out, depending on the weight of the boat. I have a 75 yours is a 69. You probably have a couple of thousand pounds extra in glass in your boat.

When we originally got the boat back in 75, a friend of ours was running a 68 FBC with the Chrysler big blocks. We used to run to the Canyon together. He was spinning a 17 inch wheel and he could not run with us. We used to have to slow down in order for him to run with us. After he went to the same size wheel we had, his speed not only picked up but his fuel consumption improved also.

What was suprising was even with the extra weight of his boat, after a Canyon trip,when we both gassed up the boats were within gallons of each other in taking on fuel.

It will be interesting to feel the difference in how the boat runs after I get this stuff done in the spring. Not that I have a good sense of her now. Tony this will help insure I can get the rudders in my budget, thanks very much.

Headed down to the boat in a few minutes.

Peter...

By now your head is probably reeling with all the above info being thrown at you, and you are probably looking for another mortgage on your house to get the $$$ to pay for everything you want to do, but please allow me to make one additional suggestion...

When I had my boat surveyed the surveyor noted that the engine mounts had lost their ability to support the engines properly, and I should plan on having them replaced. I had several engine/running gear issues I wanted the engine shop to look at, partly just due to the age of everything and partly because while running the boat just after I bought her I had wrapped a chicken wire crab pot around the port prop and had a remaining slight vibration. After removing the props and shafts the shop found that the relaxed engine mounts had allowed the shafts to wear against the bottoms of the shaft logs. If left unaddressed this would have worn the logs so badly a leak would have been created, which would have been difficult to address when underway. The shafts weren't bent fortunately but one of the blades was slightly bent, and while everything was apart the mounts were changed, the engines raised to their proper positions, and afterward everything was properly aligned. I mention this only to suggest that if you are going to remove your props and shafts, take a close look at your engine mounts and shaft logs and replace anything that is well worn before you start looking at replacling any parts.. unfortunately once you start looking seriously at your running gear you really have to look at everything between your engine mounts and your prop nuts to be sure everything in between is aligned, straight, and true. There isn't much sense in spending money on one thing if any of the others aren't up to snuff.

Ill add it to my list.

thats good advice. replacing my engine mounts made a world of difference in keeping everything true.

Here are some pics of some of what we were discussing.

Those rudder shelves look like they don't need replacing right now. Did your surveyer tell you that you'll have to change the valves on your sea strainers to levered ball gate valves? They deemed the other (rotary) kind illegal for marine use. Not a fast enough shut-off and sometimes get frozen, as explained to me. An easy fix you can do yourself.

Yes walter he did. I think he said those sea stariners are supposed to support 400lbs as well. He suggested the levers but after reading another thread i think i would like to see them set up as crash valves how some others suggested.

Pete - you have the "Bertram 28" style rudders - the rudder arm is under the shelf, the "Bertram 31" style has the rudder arm at the top of the rudder stock - so they are the very smallest of the samll style. The Capt. Patrick oversize rudders will do you a world of good.

Don't be bashful with the grease gun on the zerks on the rudder fange bearings and rudder arm & tie rod ends.

Everything looks nice and clean & I agree with Walter that the rudder shelves look fairly new.

UV

Believe me id love to put on the new rudders especially considering that engine problems are likely. As i prioritize they came after the shafts and props and from what most are saying the raw water intake is a priority as well. With all the little details i left out and possibly some unknowns it seems to be adding up fairly quickly.

I hope i can do the rudders but well see.

My '69 FBC has the under-the-shelf rudder arms, but they were the mid-size spade shape--not the smaller shark fin type shape.

You'll have to work real hard to have a catastrophic failure on a 454 regardless of hours. The stuff around the block may go--manifolds, pumps, ignition--but the long block will hang in there. Great motors (rocker arms are a supposed weak point).

pete
with out the bigger rudders , you might as well just throw the anchor over and call sea tow if you lose an engine, you will just go around in circles, and with a stiff wind, imposible, i speak from experiance with my 1st 31.
just my 2 cents worth

peter here is another ridiculous statement but honest you have to see to believe. i have simrad autopilot with hand held head. we limited out today with bass and threwback a dozen 12lbs blues south of davis park.just for the hell of it mainly to amuse myself we trolled back to fire island inlet.to get close to troll speed i shut down one engine, put up all the canvass and run directly into wind and still have to go in and out of gear to get down to 3.8knts dragging two special 5 gallon pails. anyways i set course in auto pilot and i was surprised she held perfect course on one engine with those rudders . like charlie said don`t leave home without!!!!

a quick look while changing zincs

peter there is absolutely no reason you cannot do some of the work on your list by yourself.this board of the best of the best will encourage you ,the rest is up to you.i built my entire boat except hull paint by myself and mainly capt. patrick fiberglass knowhow and ilustrated instruction.-------------------------give it a try, here is a perfect example stern bilge pump and back up slightly higher and on differant battery.

man peter all that looked pretty good better than mine and mine ran no problems until some gave me the bright idea to rip the fuel tank out :)

Bob you've got to share photos of that crash valve. I'll ease into it, generally I don't touch engines. Otherwise I am up for doing some work if I have a plan.

Peter

Actually pretty easy boats to work on. Not sure how hard it is to remove your deck, but if it isn't hard, there is almost nothing you can not get at. As they said get rid of those valves.

They were original factory with those gate valves. Mine bit the ghost one spring. We were lucky, we were still stitting in the travel lift and I remembered I had to open them up. Well the handle just spun. Couldn't open one valve. Out of the water and on to ball valves.

Hate to have that happen if I had to close one of them.

not a great photo those are hose adapters on crash valves to run glycol into system.you can come out of 2" tee with ell to bottom of bilge. i reduced down to 1" then hose adapter which i leave off during season.