Residential standby generators, natural gas fuel

JGomber · Post by **JGomber** » Mar 15th, '10, 14:20

OK, enough spring...lets cut right to summer!
Got caught by this weekends Noreaster in the metro NY area. Gusts in the 70s and trees taking down wires all over the place. Great light show in the sky Saturday night with the arcing and transformers lighting off!
Lost power Saturday afternoon and the local power company says it'll be Thursday before we get it back.
So, I've been studying up on standby natural gas fueled generators for homes. Of course there are alot of them and plenty of price ranges. The folks on this site are as eclectic as they get. Anyone have any experience or opinions on these generator systems.
Won't help this week but NEXT TIME!!!!
Thanks.

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Mar 15th, '10, 14:50

Cheapest way to go:

First, find a junker at the boat yard and buy the 12 to 16 KW gen set out of it (diesel). Add a radiator from the auto graveyard. Wire an electric fan to blow over the radiator when the generator runs.

Get someone to convert the engine to run on natural gas.

HURRY and buy one of these before they're gone:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWNX:IT

Call the plumber and the electrican, and you're in business for about two or three grand. This is exactly what I did (for about $1200), except I just run off of my home heating oil.

Otherwise you're looking at pretty big bucks.

Russ Pagels · Post by **Russ Pagels** » Mar 15th, '10, 14:54

I have a generac 15kw,auto start, auto transfer. 5 years no problem .

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Mar 15th, '10, 16:42

I went diesel to avoid the carb, spark plugs, distributor, etc. of the natural gas engines. Be real careful as the natural gas ones they sell for 3 or 4 grand ain't continous duty and are mo' trouble than they are worth.

And around here, during two of the last big hurricanes, trees uprooting broke the natural gas lines, so people with natural gas units were SOL.

Mike's suggestion is sound. My unit is 21KW with a 4 cyl. Kubota engine that was put together for me by Next Gen in Jacksonville and the unit today, without an outdoor enclosure, sells for about $7,300.....add another grand for the enclosure. I have a 275 gallon diesel farm tank that cost about $400. I did the plumbing and wiring myself, and already had the transfer switch.

The 21 KW diesel has a helluva lot of torque - as opposed to a 21 KW natural gas unit that does not - and won't even wimper starting big ass a/c units, electric dryers, etc....it runs our whole house like nothing ever happened....uses about 12 gal. a day....has been run as much as 11 days without shutting off for one second. Have had it for about 12 years and other than changing the starting battery about every 5 years been zero maintaince deal. I try to run it about once a month. I don't like or have the auto transfer switch since I don't want it starting up when we are not home.

Another idea if you have the room is a 20 KW railroad generator with a Detroit 2-71 diesel which will run forever and is cheap, say under 4K for a primo used unit...they weigh right at a ton + tho.

The rule of thumb is you will need about 1.75 x the KW with natural gas that you can get by with using diesel...its the torque thingy.

UV

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Mar 15th, '10, 16:54

Bunch of those 2-71 RR generators on ebay for $3k at the moment...

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Mar 15th, '10, 17:47

I've installed a bunch of Generac units as standbys and have had good luck with them. 3 family members have them.

At one time I could get a 12kw for 4800 on natural gas.

wmachovina · Post by **wmachovina** » Mar 15th, '10, 18:16

i have the 15 kw generac and am very pleased. My neighbor came over after Wilma hit us and said "well aren't you a smartass-sittin here with your shutters up and genny runnin"--my response was Hineys are cold and 5 bucks apiece, interested? good for 2

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Mar 16th, '10, 00:52

the only thin i can say is make sure you use a transfer switch and have the electrical properly installed, the linemen that repairs your lines will appreciate it, and get to go home to his family. they all have there down sides, you got a diesel, you gotta buy fuel, and if powers out, gas stations aint open. and it is possible that trees up root natural gas lines, but i think that is pretty uncommon in ike, i dont recall any of that.
BUT that 271 does look cool..

Charlie J · Post by **Charlie J** » Mar 16th, '10, 06:05

ahh generators a linemans night mar came across appox doz the last 3 days. double checked they were not tied in to the panel, theres more damage then hurricane gloria back in 85, have appox 35 poles broken, brought 4 grews in from upstate ny. slowly making progress, should be up to snuff by the end of this weekend,winds were clocked at 80 mph sat night at kennedy airport.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Mar 16th, '10, 06:59

the only thin i can say is make sure you use a transfer switch

That goes without saying. 98% of installs will need a permit anyways and won't pass without one.

Also some developments have noise level restrictions. If you live in an HOA, check before you buy. I know many people who installed and then later had to remove because of noise even after the permiting cleared.

HOA's are a nightmare.

they all have there down sides, you got a diesel, you gotta buy fuel, and if powers out, gas stations aint open. and it is possible that trees up root natural gas lines

Thats why I have a Honda suitcase 2kw.

My wife and I lived off that for almost a month after Jean and Francis. Put a shaker in the entertainment room window, ran that, the fridge, and the tv and sat. on about 1.5 gallons a 24 hour day fully loaded and no complaints of noise from the neighbors.

JGomber · Post by **JGomber** » Mar 16th, '10, 07:56

Thanks all...
Is this a great site or what!?
I knew I'd get more info than I bargained for and lots that I had no idea of in the first place.
Now, it's back to the research for Db and permits and safe installs and base pads and...

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Mar 16th, '10, 08:06

isnt there another issue with the gas supply in some areas?
I think in our area the gas delivery does not have enough pressure to run the generators so thats another part of the installation?

All this talk has shifted me to considering a diesel one to run off the home heating oil tank, but not installing it, just using a portable.

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Mar 16th, '10, 09:30

Raybo: There are some military mobile diesel generators available that are mounted on trailers.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Mar 16th, '10, 10:16

I live in a house that is barely 30x40, my wife and I, 3 little dogs- trailer generator might be a bit much for my needs!

I was thinking more along the lines of a 5000-7000

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Mar 16th, '10, 10:53

Look on eBay, there are a number of places that sell Chinese diesel gensets in the less than 10 kw range....for real short money, probably be okay for occasional use.

The fuel supply problem is why I got the 275 gallon tank - it's an upright oval farm tank and cost about the same as a much smaller one. I have a friend in the fuel business, so he sent a truck out and filled me up years ago for 50 cents a gallon. Enough fuel for about 3 weeks. You guys up north have heating oil trucks running all over and its the same stuff as #2 diesel anyway.

Charlie, hear ya. Not only a full transer switch (mine is 200 amp Square D) that disconnects all hot legs, but drive a separate ground rod for the gneerator so you don't rely on the house ground alone. The generator and the linemen will love ya.

Bruce has the right idea - either go big with diesel to run the whole house or little with a Honda to keep it simple. The cracker box natural gas ones in my view are the worst of both worlds.

UV

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Mar 16th, '10, 10:56

A comment related to this subject, maybe not needed here because I suspect the members here are way above the norm when common sense is concerned, but just to be on the safe side. (I know this is a subject close to CWJ's heart).... I used to do a lot of infrared inspections of large electrical equipment for my local electric utility, and spent a lot of time in generating stations and utility switchyards and substations.

Don't just go willy nilly and hook up a temp generator to your main electrical panel if you don't have a transfer switch and know how to use it.

If you feed power from a temp generator into your in-home panel and have not disconnected your panel from the utility's service outside your home you can "backfeed" your 120 volt power into the utility's system.. and can create transmission line level high voltages which can hurt or kill a utility worker who is working on a piece of equipment which he thinks is safe. As I understand things a utility's transformer that takes high voltage power from the grid and reduces it to household 120 voltage can essentially work backwards and take your 120 volt power and create transmission level voltages in the high voltage side of transformer.

Electric utility personnel are probably the most safety conscious group of people I have ever worked with, but in emergencies things can and do go wrong.. I was told of one worker who was turned into a barely alive handicapped individual who took a hit of 13,800 volts during a hurricane when everyone thought the transformer he was on top of was completely disconnected from both the high and low voltage sides of the system.

cmccool · Post by **cmccool** » Mar 16th, '10, 11:06

I went with one of the Chinese jobs. 7kw diesel for around $800 - cheap money and worth every penny. They call some of them "silent" models - but they are a long way from quiet. I have mine in a small insulated shed which makes it ok unless you are standing near the exhaust.

I have a trickle charger hooked up so don't have to worry about a dead battery. Push the start button every fall and she fires right up. 4 years now and no issues.

Cliff

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Mar 16th, '10, 11:21

what happens to me is I "want I want I want", then I price it out of my range and remember its something I have only needed 2 times for a day or so in the last 10 years so I give up on the idea.

I need to keep this realistic otherwise it will be a fantasy for me.

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Mar 16th, '10, 12:38

You hit the nail on the head. You can get by fine with a small protable generator if you plan ahead. Down here the hurricane situation is such (Geo. Bush's fault) that we can, and do, lose pwoer for up to two weeks at a whack, and living with a high maintaince woman dictates ownership of a huge diesel generator with an outragously large fuel tank. I've put about 500 hours on mine since the early 90s and the Bride always says its the best thing (toy, she really means) I've ever bought.

Noise wise, don't be afraid to add mufflers....my 21 came with a tractor type verical muffler that was pretty puny....I went to a muffler shop and had a guy fabricate a 90 elbow that would clamp over the exhaust end of the tractor muffler then clamp to a Toyota muffler, then added a 45 at the end of that to deflect the exhaust down. Cut the noise way down and can't even hear the unit running when you are in the house. Likewise on AJ, the old Farryman one lunger genset had two in line mufflers to try and control its M-60 machine gun bark....when the Phasor 3 cyl. went in I left both mufflers and now its just a 'whoosh', zero noise. Obviously there is a point where back pressure is a serious issue but adding mufflers is a good way to control noise - works for me anyway.

UV

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Mar 16th, '10, 18:04

Ya I am with Bruce, those little hondas, are super quit and pretty damn powerful, and light! Also, its a good rule of thumb that once you purchase a generater for your home, you will never need it haha! During Ike i bought a bad ass 10.5kw baldor, used it then, and havent really used it since, i just wanted it, let my folks use my little 2kw bit and they were good for a week, but i still think i want one of those DD 2-71 units, just in case! never know when i will need to fire up a package unit to cool the whole neigborhood. haha

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Mar 16th, '10, 19:01

We had a DD 2-71 at Port Eads and it was amazingly quiet...they run at 1,200 rpm. If you get one, make sure it has the brushless generator end as the brushes are a PITA....and be sure its reconnectable to single phase as most of them are wired 3 phase. There is an outfit in either Montana or Idaho that specializes in the 2-71s - they advertise in B&H a lot, seem to be the mother lode for them. Wonder how manyh DD built? Every railroad reefer car has or had one. The definition of heavy duty.

UV

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Mar 17th, '10, 12:34

Square D makes a disconnect addition to their regular 200 amp box. It is a sliding sheetmetal lockout that won't let you flip the generator breaker until the main is in the off position and covered up.

Page 17

http://static.schneider-electric.us/doc ... CT0501.pdf

Kurt · Post by **Kurt** » Mar 17th, '10, 16:13

Throwing ideas around the hood....a neighbor suggested kind of like above, making a "hurricane room". Have things set up where if the house is still standing, you put a big window unit in "the room" and sort of live out of there. Your house has to have some way of closing off a couple of rooms to live out of. Idea was you could run the window unit for less KW than the central a/c and if needed, you could turn off the a/c to run the stove or hot water heater for awhile. Also, you could add a small window unit to the bedroom and run it by itself so at least you could sleep in your own bed. Probably a lot of trouble and nuts and bolts costs but it seemed probable.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Mar 17th, '10, 20:36

i went along with mike`s idea a yanmar diesel out of sailboat . runs forever on a tank of fuel and can carry house minus a/c but that kind of weather never comes in a/c weather anyway. i have a large house with fish ponds that run 24/7 , and like vic roy high maintenace women.

AndreF · Post by **AndreF** » Mar 17th, '10, 21:30

Kurt, that's what I do during hurricanes, icebox during day, 110 A/C in bedroom @ nite, lights, ceiling fans, more fans, but cooking is nat gas-no problems-yet.
11 days w/out power w/Gustav, almost called UV.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Mar 18th, '10, 06:58

You guys with engine converted sets, what are you using for govenors to keep the speed constant for proper voltage and frequency output as the loads are applied?

Charlie J · Post by **Charlie J** » Mar 18th, '10, 20:13

well the war is finally over, got the last customer on tonight, after 6 days of 16 hrs per day,and 4 crews from up state ny, this storm caused more damage then gloria total 35 poles broken 3/4 of them in rear property lines, still have a month or so to make permament repairs, most of it is temp. good night!!!

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Mar 19th, '10, 06:51

Just think of all the extra tax revenue the government is gonna get from you guys for your hard work. :(

Charlie J · Post by **Charlie J** » Mar 19th, '10, 11:28

yea, uncle sam is going to love me next week

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Mar 19th, '10, 14:52

Bruce wrote:You guys with engine converted sets, what are you using for govenors to keep the speed constant for proper voltage and frequency output as the loads are applied?

Mine was a gen set out of an old 50 something foot Hatt. With very minor adjustment, it pretty much just made 59 or 60 cycles no matter the load. All I had to do was cobble a cooling system.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Mar 19th, '10, 17:13

that what i had mike the yanmar generator was already set up.my son has a 30amp yanmar mobile generator runs like a clock .also mounts on class 4 hitch with two foot platform he uses on those 12,000 square foot homes where property is so large that a extension cord is impractical during early contruction.

aeymardz71 · Post by **aeymardz71** » Mar 19th, '10, 17:21

check out www.emerson2-71gm.com 20kw diesel for 5 grand fully refurbished. many people down here have natural gas gens here and have had good luck, however im stuck on the duece!!

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Mar 21st, '10, 12:55

That's the place, emerson2-71 that's the mother lode for the 2-71 gensets.

I bought a second hand Kubota 4 cyl. engine once, think it came off a little tractor and tried to make my own genset with it. Bought a new flywheel, bell housing, and generator end. Built my own frame and got a special spring for the governor to make it run at 1800 rpm so it would produce 60 cps. When the dust settled it was a pile of crap. Sold it to a guy to use at a cabin the swamp, it worked fine for him but not near good enough to run a house with expensive refrigeration stuff - if the cycles get off just a little you can kiss that a/c compressor goodbye. Plunked down the cheese and got Gino at Next Gen to build me the 21 kw using a 4 cyl. Kubota that was built for Carrier and has a 16 qt. oil pan that's good for 1,000 hours between oil changes. The cat's meow.

You yankees shut that damn door....went from sunny and high 70s yesterday to drizzle and 40 today....Algore lies.

UV

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Residential standby generators, natural gas fuel

Residential standby generators, natural gas fuel

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