new to site....have a few questions

adams · Post by **adams** » Feb 8th, '10, 20:25

I am new here...actually just joined today. I grew up on a 42 and 33. Even though I am relatively young my heart is set on all things old. I recently sold my 1973 Whaler 13' with a '73 Merc 500 on it. I am kicking myself in the butt already. I had a '79 Mako '25 with twin Merc 150s. And I am currently restoring a 1965 Fastback Mustang...a "barn find" and sometimes I wish I never "found" it.

I am very happy to have found this site. There seems to be a lot of great information on here I just need to sift through it all. First question is any tips on using the search function? Is there any way to search for things in a specific way such as words in the message or title, or in an exact forum to search? Any must read articles or any other literature around?

Secondly, and the reason for me being here, I am in the market for a Bertram 31. Are there any years to stay away from? Any major design differences in any of the years? What should I look for or look out for? Any must have's or things of great importance and vice versa? The boat will be used for some family crusing and offshore fishing. Basically looking for a very solid hull, newer drivetrain (or drivetrain in excellent shape), and all systems working. Basically a reliable boat that can be used now that will need some TLC or cosmetic updating to make her pretty again. Max budget is $40k. Any other tips will be greatly appreciated. I am excited to be part of this community.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Feb 8th, '10, 21:52

Adams

Welcome. With the budget you set for yourself, you should be able to find a decent gasser that you could use and slowly update.

Are there any bad years, no not really. The earlier ones were heavy because they used more glass in them. The started to lighten them up during the oil crisis in 73. I believe it was sometime in 72 they increased the tank size from 170 to 220 gals.

No matter which one you buy, if it has gas engines and the original tank, you will have to replace the tank. Ethanol will ruin the tank and your engines.

The weekspots are the deck, bulkhead behind the engine, the bulkhead right in frnt of the engines and of course the strut pads. Most have replaced the Decks with a fibergalss deck, but I am sure there are still some old plywood decks around. You will find that most of us try and take the projects in bites. Some go all out. If you repower, it will be a huge bite because you will be into more than you expect.

The other pain, the windows. They may or may not leak. Probably do. Cover the front ones with canvas or glass them in.

There is a tips section which will give you a lot of ideas and information on how to do a lot of the work yourself.

The search function is easy, you can either type in the word or you can search by poster. Either work.

Good luck and welcome aboard. We are all here to help.

adams · Post by **adams** » Feb 9th, '10, 00:37

Tony...thank you. Is the general census that the older heavier boats are better, or are the lighter ones just as good but also benefit from better fuel burn? Also I thought I saw somewhere the the bridge was made a little while do you know by how much and when?

I checked out the search function. What I was getting at is there a way to do more exact searches besides looking for a word or two that could be in any post under any topic. Other forums that I have been on allow you to do more refined searches such as searching in titles or messages, searching in a particular forum, searching in certain dates, etc.

Again thank you.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Feb 9th, '10, 00:43

I have found that the easiest thing to do is ask a question and in hours you'll get an awful lot of valuable input. Welcome aboard! Walter

JP Dalik · Post by **JP Dalik** » Feb 9th, '10, 07:21

Welcome to the site.

There are a few things to look for and be careful of with the B31. The earliest boats have issues with gelcoat. You'll see very fine alligatoring (tiny cracks) on the gelcoat. Structurally not an issue. However if you decide to refinish your project all of the gelcoat will have to be removed.

In the early 70's the hulls were changed. The big change here was the reconfiguration of the lifting strakes. The new configuration helped lift the boat and keep her a little drier (as dry as a B31 can get anyway)

In the late 70's the amount of fiberglass was reduced in the hulls. Not a bad thing just no the overkill that had been there in the earlier years. For the money the later model year hulls have the most upgrades, larger fuel tank, good gelcoat, lighter hulls. Other than that every project B31 will take as much money as your ready to throw at it.

Run a search on Buddy Boy, Chimera, Sea Nile, Phoenix to get a taste of the different directions these boats have gone.

Hurry up and finish that fastback so you can sell it for more B31 investment dollars. And get prepared to be addicted.

adams · Post by **adams** » Feb 9th, '10, 15:41

JP...I am new to working on boats so please bear with me....if I were to repaint an early 31 couldn't everything just be sanded and then primed and resprayed or will all the cracks eventually come through? I have been reading about the 31 being a "wet boat". Exactly where on the boat do you get wet? Do you know about when the bridge was made wider? Thank you for the other input about the gelcoat, fuel tanks, and strakes.

I have seen SeaNile. The first time I saw her was on youtube and then I came across the THT thread where it was for sale. It is a beautiful boat. I would change the hull color but to each his won. I will do a search on the others. I think where I want to go is almost exactly like Fighting Angel in the listings section here. Of course there are always a few different things people like, but how the boat is laid out and setup is pretty much exactly what I want. Do you think he will owner finance for about 30 years at about .01%?!

The mustang isn't going anywhere. She has been four years in the making, and will finally be done at the end of this year, and hopefully in a couple magazines. And I am currently looking for another one bring back to life and create a Shelby Hertz clone.

Again thank you everyone for your input

JP Dalik · Post by **JP Dalik** » Feb 9th, '10, 16:27

The problem with the older boats is that if you don't peel off all the gelcoat before repainting the cracks will eventually come through the paint.
The flybridge has alwayst been the same no changes made to it.

adams · Post by **adams** » Feb 9th, '10, 16:34

That is what I thought you ment by removing all the old gelcoat. How much work or cost does this add if I wanted to re-do or re-paint a boat? I thought I had read somewhere they made the bridge a little wider to make more room up there, but I guess not. Again thanks JP.

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Feb 9th, '10, 17:16

Adams- they did change the bridge configuration. I think it was in 73(?) Capt P or one of the more knowledgable guys will give you the accurate details. You can tell by the length of exposed roof top outboard of the bridge superstructure on either the port or starboard.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Feb 9th, '10, 23:03

I don't think the bridge size itself ever changed. In fact, outside of compass. control and Anchor light placement, I don't think they ever moved anything else around. I fished on a 67 quite often and I don't remember a bit of difference to my 75.

The weight difference between the older and newer boats creates a little different ride. Not a lot but the heavier boats take a head sea a little better. As far as strength goes, remember, none of the original hulls have ever had a hull failure. The are all pretty strong. Just remember the strut backing plate is a weak spot. Hit something hard enough and you could drive the strut through the hull. One of the first repairs a lot of us do is to redo the strut pad. Go into the tips section and you will see the type of correction you would need to do if not already done.

http://bertram31.com/proj/tips/index.htm

Remember, you can pick up one of the 31's completely stripped and neglegted for many years and with a little time and money replace all the wood and basically build yourself a hull that is better than the day it left the factory.

By wet they mean that in a head and quartering sea you may take water as high as the bridgea and sometimes more. Any one in the cockpit not under the overhang might get wet.

Actually if you hunt around through some posts in the last two weeks you will see us talking about what is meant by wet.

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Feb 10th, '10, 08:09

Adams- JP and Tony are more knowledgeable than I am on this. So I differ to their expertise. I could have sworn that there was a difference on the size of the combing outboard of the bridge sides between our 31 SF and the later 31 FBC. But that could just be due to the perceptions of a kid.

adams · Post by **adams** » Feb 10th, '10, 11:49

Tony- I found that thread on the wet ride before. It was just a little confusing as some where saying it isn't wet, while others say it will soak you. Thank you for clearing it up. I also went into the tips section before and saw the strut upgrade. Definetly a must do it seems. I really searched this entire site before starting to post up here. I wanted to educate myself as much as possible. That makes conversations with seasoned guys a lot easier. What does a good stripped down hull go for? And how much would it take to bring it back? I have a feeling getting into a project is going to put me into the six figures to make the boat right even with gas engines.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Feb 10th, '10, 11:58

I really recommend you consider a running boat, gas or diesel. You will learn what you like and dislike and what you would like to change. Starting from a stripped hull is going to take you at least 3 years and mucho dinero and you still wouldn't have felt what she can be like on the water. My 2 cents. Much luck. Walter

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Feb 10th, '10, 12:51

The amount that could be spent bringing a stripped hull to almost perfect would blow your mind and wallet maybe. I would think all said and done could be 400,000.00$ or more. If you do all the work yourself just the parts could go maybe 130,000.00 to 160,000.00 with diesels and electronics. Maybe some of the other brothers could shed some light on this subject.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Feb 10th, '10, 15:13

adams someday i am going to run into that son of a bitch surveyor who started this vicious rumors about a 31 bertram being a wet boat. a 31 bertram as well as any other boat in the world is wet if the boat is plowing water instead of riding on top.you break the wave and it comes back at you ,when the boat is on top she is touching the water just even with the trailing edge of the windshield and any spray will end up after the transom.be it a 31 bertram or a 36' grady white with triple 350hp yamaha at the tune of 400 big ones. going into head seas with the wind off your port or starboard is going to bring spray into the boat. i run 20 or 30 boats a year with the same results.rather stupid to compare a 50 year old boat with 300 hp to a present day 31' with 760hp . and thats minimum today.adams built the boat with common sense and 315hp yanmar/330cummins power and it will not be wet in 4' or less of waves .

adams · Post by **adams** » Feb 10th, '10, 16:47

Walter...I am sure that is what I will do. I just don't know much about boats and what is involved in rebuilding or prices. Now if we are talking about cars and metal that is another story. But I would still like to know in case I find a fixer upper that ends up needing more fixing than I thought. Like the older 31s and the gelcoat problems. I guess you just can't sand it down, prime, and paint. So that is great to know. And I am not planning on spending 200k for a refit :shock: .

Bob...I guess everyone has a different opinion on what is wet and what is dry. But I know what you mean. My old Mako 25...now that was a fairly wet ride.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Feb 10th, '10, 22:43

Adam

Like Bob says all boats are wet. Just depends on how you run them.

If I were you with a $40,000 budget, is to find a nice gasser. They are out there. Look around and up the price to low $60's and you might find a decent diesel.

Good luck and welcome to the disease.

adams · Post by **adams** » Feb 11th, '10, 08:01

I would really like a diesel I just don't know anything about them. And there seems to be so many different ones (atleast models), from different years, with different hp.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Feb 11th, '10, 21:46

Adams

If you find a diesel, stay with Cummins, Yanmars or Volvos. Volvos will cost you more in repairs but I will say this, with the old Mechanical diesels, there is very little to go wrong and they actually are a little easier to work on than the gas engines. Gas engines you have to deal with the carb, wires, plugs etc. With the diesels its basically injectors when they give you fits and clean fuel and you are off to the races.

I just converted from gas and the reman Cummins I put in looks simple as hell. We will see once I have to do a repair.

adams · Post by **adams** » Feb 12th, '10, 14:47

I have been spending a ton of time doing as much research on everything that I can. I see that cummins and yanmars are very popular here for diesels. I ran across some info on some of the older Detroits and am now doing some research there. I have been using the search function here a ton and I am surprised with some of the findings. There have been discussions here that I didn't think would have taken place. A testament to what a great forum this is. And you don't get bashed like some other places I know (THT).

Does anyone know where else to look for 31s besides boattrader, yachtrader, etc?

Charlie J · Post by **Charlie J** » Feb 12th, '10, 14:51

adam
this site has a listing

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Feb 12th, '10, 14:59

Adam-

B31s also show up on Craigslist and The Hull Truth (another website that has some nice pics and listings, other than that, well...).

I don't see that its been mentioned, but you also should figure out whether you want a FBC, Sportfish, Bahia Mar, or Express.

Have fun-

John

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Feb 12th, '10, 16:25

adams wrote:There have been discussions here that I didn't think would have taken place. A testament to what a great forum this is. And you don't get bashed like some other places I know (THT).

We're pretty liberal......in a conservative sort of way.......

Rule #1 No personal attacks. We're all friends.
Rule #2 Still being discussed

adams · Post by **adams** » Feb 12th, '10, 16:50

CW- Yep I have checked it out. And if I could afford it Fighting Angel would be mine. But I have been looking more closely at Dos Hermanos.

John- A FBC is what I want. I will not count out a SF. I just like the closed cabin and no contros down there.

Mike- Hopefully I will fit in then. I am a conservative guy with a liberal tongue.

Thanks again everyone.

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Feb 12th, '10, 17:14

adams wrote: John- A FBC is what I want. I will not count out a SF. I just like the closed cabin and no contros down there.

Man I just love the open sportfisherman. There is something super retro and iconic about that boat and aestetichally the lines of the boat are even more beautiful when not interupted by the vertical plane of the bulkhead or the box of the head. She's got better curves than a Vargas pinup.

The bulkhead on Capy is a beautiful compromise in my opinion.

Although for real world applications, the FBC is a more resonable choice, especially if there is a Mrs. Adams invloved.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Feb 12th, '10, 17:30

The lower station on a Sprtsfisherman is rarely used but boy, is it nice when working on your engines, especially when you're alone. Full set of instruments, startups on rainy days, etc.

adams · Post by **adams** » Feb 12th, '10, 17:59

Actually there is a Mrs Adams (although like everyone else sometimes I need to reevaluate that decision...jk), and two little Adams. But I do like both the FBC and SF for the opposite reason. Closed cabin when you want it or an open cabin when you want it.

Which brings me to a question. Is there any other difference between the FBC and SF other than closed cabin, toilet in the v-berth, and second control station? Thanks.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Feb 12th, '10, 19:18

I have had a Sportsfisherman for 30+ years. It's a matter of tradeoffs. I had 3 children. When out with an open back, no claustophobia. Sit on the engine boxes, hit the fridge for cold cuts, sit at the forward dinette bench eating a sandwich, looking out at the stern lines while trolling. If you have seasick-prone people on board, it helps. I put a drop-in piece of plywood between the engine boxes and a matching cushion to the ones on the engine boxes and you have another bunk once the rear curtains go down at night. If you stay at a marina with a nearby bathroom/shower, the V-berth head becomes less of a problem. If you have boys, they don't care. Wife and girls, a bit more of a problem. Less at the dock, more on the water. I would guess the FBC would be a bit heavier on the starboard side due to the weight of sinks/toilet, etc. Based on where you will keep it and it's security, The FBC can be locked at the bulkhead door. In the SPTSF, you have canvas and zippers to the dinette area. I put a lock into the V-berth area. Where I have it docked, no problems. If I was still living in the Bronx, I woud guess it would be a big problem. I LOVE having a full set of gauges and starting/running facilities just a few feet from the engines. Remember, getting to the bridge and back several times quickly with the engine boxes up is for the young. All else is pretty much the same. Walter

Vince Luciani · Post by **Vince Luciani** » Feb 12th, '10, 19:34

Adam,

I saw your post about looking into boats with Detroit diesels. Contact me if you want any personal experience. I ran with detroits for about 10 years before I repowered with 330 hp Cummins. In a nutshell, the detroits are slow (17 knots),loud and dirty (leak oil terribly) but are cheap to maintain. They run and run and run (at least mine did).

I went with the "work on her as you use her" approach. I have completed many major projects (e.g., repower, hardtop, new deck, fish boxes, etc.) without ever losing any fishing time. Also, like others here, i get almost as much enjoyment from working on her as using her. I think thats the key to your decision.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Feb 12th, '10, 21:58

Adams

What Walter said, when I was 25 jumping from the deck to the bridge with the box open was no problem, now 34 years later I am about 3 steps slower and realize I am not as nimble as I once was.

There was a time when I could move from the bridge to the deck to help gaff a fish in nothing flat, now I keep wondering when I am going to land in the water.

adams · Post by **adams** » Feb 12th, '10, 22:31

Since I have not quite hit the dreaded 30th birthday (that's a poke to you old guys)...I am not to worried about running around the boat. Plus I would like the extra room in the cabin, or extra features. I don't really see using the lower control station often.

Mhiggins · Post by **Mhiggins** » Feb 14th, '10, 00:14

I got a Sportfisherman with upper and lower controls. I use the upper station about 98% of the time I drive. I'll always start the motors from the lower station and drove it about 3 or 4 time from below because of foul weather here on the great lakes. I use it for musky, perch, walleye, and anything biting fishing, and taking friends out to party. I'm shocked because all the women love to see a nice head gallery below with leather couches, sink, nice toliet, bar, but when they go out on the Bertram they all love that big open back so they can lay out and drink. Great overall boat and good luck with your chooses. I hit that BIG 30 last year and can still handle running up and down that ladder for now. Only one major complaint from my experience on working on it. The starboard engine compartment it really tight. I'm 6'2 and working on that side is not for tall people. Also, you think your car likes money, HA! The boat loves green. B O A T means Bring ON Another Thousand!!!! Hundreds are really nothing.

adams · Post by **adams** » Feb 14th, '10, 12:20

I am starting to look at the SF a little harder. I do find it handy to have the cockpit open when you want to. Especially if you are entertaining and have a bunch of people on the boat. Or to open the windows and have a great breeze blowing through. I have found some neat and innovative ways to close the cockpit up as well. The SF is becoming more appealing. Thanks jspiezio for pointing me in that direction.

Mike Moran · Post by **Mike Moran** » Feb 14th, '10, 13:21

Adams. I have a express also have had a s.f. I think s.f. better looking but express has + s close to the cocpit fishing also use helm seat for social times you also might save some money buying express my self having used both like the express I bought mine with new power train yanmars the rest of the boat was a shit house I repainted sanded and sanded painted Iam not going to ramble on get a boat with diesel use the boat and work on it your young and got time. best option on your boat number one is get one with ecnclosed head welcome aboard .

i

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Feb 14th, '10, 13:44

As I have said earlier, I own a sportsfisherman, but you might want to consider looking at Express Cruisers (with or without a short tower). It's the same B-31 hull. You won't sacrifice a standup head, You will run the boat sitting/standing on the engine box and be in close proximity to your family and guests, and the instruments/starting etc will be right above your starboard engine. It might meet your needs better. Take a look. Walter

adams · Post by **adams** » Feb 14th, '10, 17:17

Walter...I have paid close attention to your experience with the SF, the posts did not go unnoticed. I found a 1972 brochure on this site before I started posting and I saw all the models. The only ones I am looking at are the FBC and SF. I am taking a closer look now at the SF partly because of your input. So thank you. I too have a family with little kids. So the boat has to be comfortable for everyone.

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Feb 14th, '10, 18:55

Adam-

I have a 1969 FBC that I got when my kids were little. Advantages of the FBC are nicer/bigger head, and back bulkhead when you spend the night. My wife and kids both get seasick pretty easily, so they never go in the salon/cabin (hard to call its a salon on a B31) when underway--with the enclosed bulkhead, they'd get sick. Although we haven't tried, I think with a SF, they'd be able to use that area while underway.

John

adams · Post by **adams** » Feb 14th, '10, 19:31

John...thanks. My boy is pretty good, so he should be able to do whatever. The little girl isn't even one yet so...And the wife is the one I have to be careful with. She has never had any problem in our center console, but she will get sick in the car. The boat would only really be overnighted with my buddies when we offshore fish, and maybe with my son and his friends. And this would happen MAYBE a couple times a year. So really the boat will be a day trip boat. A fridge and microwave would really be all I need. And having the toilet in the v-berth is fine for me. Makes more room in the cabin.

Does anyone know if the cabin or v-birth are different sizes in general between a SF and FBC? I am assuming they are the same.

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Feb 14th, '10, 20:03

Cabin and v-berth are the same as far as I know. Sounds like a SF might fight your needs well.

adams · Post by **adams** » Feb 14th, '10, 20:45

You might be right. But there seems to be less of them out there. I have only seen about two or three that I looked twice at, or fit my situation.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Feb 15th, '10, 23:38

Adams

Check ut Whalers post on the swap & sell. Maybe someone Knows the boat and can give you some background. At that price it might not last long.

adams · Post by **adams** » Feb 16th, '10, 10:28

Tony- Are you talking about that Bahia Mar? If so thanks for the look out, but I am after a FBC or SF, and leaning more towards the SF. But thank you.

moguls2go · Post by **moguls2go** » Feb 16th, '10, 11:02

Someone mentioned the bulkhead on Capy a few posts back... I assume that was an upgrade made by the owner. Bertram never made a full glass bulkhead, did they? I think it looks great, and is a fantastic combination of the FBC and SF.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Feb 16th, '10, 12:31

If I am not mistaken, that was originally a SF.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Feb 16th, '10, 13:01

Paul's boat, "Capy", was/is a sport fish complete with lower station. Paul engineered & built his own fully glass bulkhead that is trimmed and held in place on both sides with steam bent teak trim.

"Capy"

moguls2go · Post by **moguls2go** » Feb 16th, '10, 13:16

That is fantastic. What a great blend of the two models. I also notice that some guys have bow pulpits; I assume those were not built by Bertram?

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Feb 16th, '10, 13:43

Paul had the windows installed by Hunter Scott on Cape Cod. Hunter did a bunch of boats like that, including Grasshopper. It does indeed look very sweet! Pauls whole interior has been changed around and he also has a few other touches that make the boat pretty nice. I've been on her a number of times.

Adams, I own a FBSC, not a SF model. I think you need to think about how you will use your space and pick the model that fits that need most effectively. I agree that the head in the FBSC is great for privacy, and if you are out with people who don't care about privacy, it makes fantastic storage, which is usually sorely lacking in our boats. Personally, while I recognise the value of a lower station for service and mechanical work, I am not sure it is worth the allocation of space it takes. My opinion. Also, I just have a hard time with sleeping where I go to the bathroom. I like the seperate room for that. It does matter to me, and would matter even more to my better half.

Not having an open bulkhead has never slowed me with entertaining, though I can see the benefit if that is what one likes. If you are down south, the open feels nice. Believe me there is not a lack of air with the rear bulkhead windows or door open. Finally, I love the look of a bahia mar with a tower. Sweet looking rig, like Bounty Hunter before she sank. I loved the way that boat looked! If I were to do it again, I might actually go that route, as I only slept on the boat once last year and most of the time when fishing is spent out in the cockpit.

Again, so much is personal preference, and how you are going to use the space. Don't overanalyze it too much however, as no matter what its a great hull!

Dug

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Feb 16th, '10, 13:46

In the images section Fun Ticket is depicts the Bahia mar with tower look I refer to in the previous post...

D

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Feb 16th, '10, 13:48

Apparently my english is suffering today, but you get the idea I hope.

Eddy G · Post by **Eddy G** » Feb 16th, '10, 15:37

I agree Dug. If you don't need a large cabin, the Bahia with a tower has a lot to offer and a great look.

Eddy G.
[img][img]http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee10 ... hiaMar.jpg[/img][/img]

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