B31 fan in need of guidance and input

moguls2go · Post by **moguls2go** » Feb 1st, '10, 21:35

I need some input from the group here. I'm a 29 year old Bertram/Boston Whaler/Ray Hunt fan who grew up on 17' and 24' Whalers and I've wanted a B31 since I was a kid and my dad told me "that's the best boat ever built". I (think) I want to buy a beat-up FBC in the next 5-7 years and rebuild it from the bottom up. With that in mind- I'd like to pose the following questions:

- Is it better/cheaper/more expensive to buy a beat up boat for $10-15K and re-power/rebuild OR buy a boat that's already been done, like Sea Nile?

- With the rebuild route, what can I expect for costs? I have $100K in my head- is that realistic? Someone said recently to consider a cost and timeframe and double both. Does a project like this cost $200K+? (I assume a lot of the answers "depend", but I'm just looking for a guideline here).

- I'd like to make a FBC a day boat to be used for cruising in the Northeast U.S., including occasional week trips with a family of 4. Is this delusional?

- I'm 6'2"... am I too big for an FBC? I've read that "the freeboard is too low, the bridge too small"... but that the boat is still fantastic. Do I need to be 5'9" to fit?

Your insight and comments will be fantastic!

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Feb 1st, '10, 22:09

Moguls

Welcome to the sight. I think you will find the cabin tight at 6'2 but if you do a search you will find a post from Capt. Pat about how he raised the ceiling in the cabin a couple of inches which would give you the room you would need.

It is cheaper to purchase a redone boat, but remember not everything may be to your taste. To give you an example, I just repowered my 31 and I estimate 65 but stopped counting at 70. The issue with the rebuild is once you start you just keep going if you are going to do it right. Plus if you need any outside assistance the cost goes up.

As for the freeboard, I will have to let the taller guys answer that since I am 5'8 and I have never found it to be an issue. I can reach over the transom and grab a fish if I have too. So no problem for me.

My advice is to start saving you money because in 3 to 5 years this market will turn and the values will go up again. Right now it probably oe of the best times to buy a boat that has been redone. Some real nice ones around right now. In fact check out the swap and sell section and you can get some ideas of how much people are asking.

Good Luck.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Feb 1st, '10, 22:10

Boy-where to start? For starters, you're talking to a 6' 220 pound guy who has had a 31 Sportsfisherman for 33 years, raised 3 kids on it during summers and the major complaint I had to live with was the lack of a stand-up head in the Sportsfisherman model. If you bought the Sea-Nile, you would have bought the top of the line in rebuilds. Gutting an oldie would keep you busy for the next few years, and never having owned and run a B-31, you wouldn't know what you like or dislike in the boat you were rebuilding. I would recommend your doing what I did. Buy a sound, running B-31. Use it and upgrade it a bit at a time while you're learning and enjoying the boat with your family. Personally, I would look at a Cummins or Yanmar powered boat as the powerplant will be the big bucks conversion eating up a good chunk of a $100,000 budget, especially if you were taking it from a gasser to diesel power. It IS a day boat. It WILL bring you back in the worst of conditions if need be. As a live-aboard, you'll have to think of it as camping. Hard as it is for you to probably believe, your kids will grow up real fast and will have dates on Saturdays and go off to college leaving you and your wife with plenty of boat for yourselves before you know it. I am sure many of the bretheren will chime in with advice of their own. No matter what you decide is best for you, you will find the site a great help. All the best! Walter

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Feb 1st, '10, 22:24

the only thing i can say, is i had your thoughts in mind, and that is what i did. But i bought a very nice running gaser that needed work. I bought it cause it was the cheapest i could find at the time. It was almost completely original FBC, and by original i mean, cosmetically, I am sorta a traditionalist. That being said, not counting electronics, I cant tell you how much i have spent, and i am not done with the tank and deck, and other mechanical, havent even touched the wiring, and i am well over what i could have bought a boat for in my area with a tower and other goodies. SO it is by far cheaper to buy one already done, but not as much fun. If working your butt off on your boat is fun, to me it is. I wanted to do the restore my self. IMO doing it your self is whats so cool about this boat, its something you can do and learn as you go. But it is nice to get into a top notch turn key boat like sea nile

scot · Post by **scot** » Feb 1st, '10, 22:41

All I can say is your timing is good. You should be capable of finding "what ever" you want for small dollars.

I think after 4 years into a B25 project hull, I would find a low to mid dollar runner and make the upgrades as you go. At least you may have the option to either use the boat, or upgrade the boat.

This also gives you some time with the boat to figure exactly what YOU want in YOUR boat. Good luck.

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Feb 1st, '10, 23:19

I didn't want to spend my summers in a boatyard working--I wanted to be out running the boat. I also didn't have the $$ for redone boat like SeaNile, Buddy Boy, Fighting Angel, whatever. Sooo, I bought a running, beat up gasser for short money, and have been fixing it up since...and I pay as I go. Lots of different ways to go about scratching that B31 itch. No doubt in my mind though--if I had an extra $100K, I'd buy a redone boat--most economical by way of time and money.

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Feb 2nd, '10, 08:40

I got mine for 15,000.$. It was a total wreck, but it worked. At first I would go to the canyons at 15- 16 knts. Slowly I fixed stuff ie the wheels, steering, hoses,pumps. I spent what little I had on the working aspect of the boat not the paint job. 4 years ago I repowered and have had the boat 15 years. I go 100 miles offshore 30 overnites a year and maybe 20 day trips if I can(not last year, family stuff). Its a work in progress. It depends on what you want. From my helm I cant see the paint job so I pretend its all nice and pretty. Guys at the dock bust my balls on how it looks ( they have brand new clorox bottles) and question the safty of my boat. Its 44 years old and will run another44 if there is any fuel left for my son. It fishes more days in the canyon a year than most of them have gone in their lives. I dont want their boats there built like crap. I have" The best boat ever built" it not just a saying.

randall · Post by **randall** » Feb 2nd, '10, 09:23

i'm also a fan of the "rolling restoration" buy something that works and and enjoy it and improve it system by system. working on the boat is a lot less work if you actually get to play with it as much as you work on it. even when its "done" which for most is never.......you will still be working on it plenty.

Hueso · Post by **Hueso** » Feb 2nd, '10, 09:35

Cruising and fishing for most of my life in 31's and after re-building three 31's with my family, if you have the $100,000 buy a Yanmar/Cummin powered redone boat. If you search at www.clasificadosonline.com you'll find a couple of diesel powered B31 at good prices. The trick is how to have it delivered up at Illinois from Puerto Rico.

I bought mine 5 years ago with running 1983 454's ("refurbished" in 2004) and still crusing and fishing. First, I re-did the inside with Sintra (PVC) and re-painted the inside with Gelcoat. Nothing else to date and dreaming to hit a big case (lawyer) to make the conversion. Like Walter, day by day work and still having fun with the boat. Outside paint needs help but like Brew, I feel I'm in a multimillion dollar boat behind that wheel.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Feb 2nd, '10, 09:40

Best boat ever built.

For me it was simple I wanted a good hull with good engines that I could use from the get go. I wanted something that would hold some value, that is if I HAD to dump it I could get something back. I wanted a boat for Fishing, Beach, Late night Dock and Dine and the yearly cruise to someplace for a week or so. I have made some changes, modifications, upgrades to fit my needs and to keep it going.

My father in law is over 6', he manages to get around with one exception, I have an Express and made the Tower for me at 5'-9"... he whacks his head from time to time on it...oh well. He hasn't had a problem with cabin, head or gunnels being too low.

Week and weekend Trips with the boat are tight with Stuff shoved everywhere and we Pray for good weather as Hanging in the boat is not a great option. But it works, as Walter said kind of like camping.

If I had the cash I'd have it redone, If I had time and cash I'd do it myself. If I had enough cash to start with...I'd buy a turnkey. I like to work and tinker on boats...but I'd much rather be boating then tinkering and working on one.

Good luck,
Carl

Rocky · Post by **Rocky** » Feb 2nd, '10, 10:25

Yep, I bought mine with the intention of rebuilding little by little without being "landlocked". Using it between working on it has been an absolute joy, including actually working on it, you start to know every little thing about it. You could not have found a better sight for knowledge about these, also! They're the best.

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Feb 2nd, '10, 11:03

Like everyone said" get a boat run it, fix it while you use it and down the road durring the winter redo the big stuff". You wont know what to do untill you have run the boat and you have become close freinds. My boat is one of my dearest freinds.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Feb 2nd, '10, 11:47

brewster you have my utmost of respect ! i have 50 years of experiance on the water and someone tells me they went 30 times overnight in the canyon -----------wow i tip my hat, both jp and myself know damm well you had to come back in near gale warning at one time or another with "perfect weather" predictions by noaa!!!love it balls to the wall for tuna.

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Feb 2nd, '10, 12:07

Bob you are right. If you go alot its just a matter of time. I have had the weather change on me so many times it scares me. I get all the reports and use all outlets to get my weather forcasts. It does not matter what they say it will be. They are wrong plenty of times. I think if I had another kind of boat I would be dead. Ive been rocked around, beat up, green water over the bridge 3 feet deep at 6 knts , cant see, lightning coming down all around, wishing my parents had never met. I thought I was a great captian but its the 44 year old boat thats the hero and saved my crew and my life more times than I should say. " The best boat ever built" Im living proof.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Feb 2nd, '10, 12:37

that awful feeling in the pit of your stomach . please GOD let me live one more day as you look at that e-perb behind you and the life raft below you your mind starts to wanda " well if i have to bail out in two seconds when a 12footer rouge goes over me" i will do this and that .terrible feeling you just feel so defenseless .some how that bow pops out of the water and you take a deep breath.i can`t believe we did not go under .the 70' infinity comes in to dock with broken windshield, top torn off , wind screen torn backwards ,instument gone bonkers from saltwater imersion and some guys starts talking about his centerconsole. how could be cool.you become like me "asshole you have no clue w2hat a 31 bertram is all about""

randall · Post by **randall** » Feb 2nd, '10, 13:13

ive only been on brewsters boat once, and near shore at that.......but i can vouch for the fact his front windows dont leak.

moguls2go · Post by **moguls2go** » Feb 2nd, '10, 17:45

Wow guys, this was super helpful. I would have started down a totally different path (the rebuild route from day 1).

So, this raises my next question:

Some of you have gassers and others have recommended diesels. Forgive me for being naive... Whalers run outboards ... why choose one over the other? Gas motors are cheaper... any other benefits?

randall · Post by **randall** » Feb 2nd, '10, 18:37

every gas guy has diesel envy........$$$$$$$$$.

theres a bunch of reasons why............

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Feb 2nd, '10, 18:44

I've had both. I get half the fuel consumption, if not better with diesel no matter how many are on board. Light load or heavy load exactly the same. Not so with gas engine power. I would have had two sets of gas engines by this time and my diesels are not in the least tired. Safer-no blowers/fear of explosions etc. No ethanol problems and dissolving fuel tanks, no points/plugs/timing adjustments, etc. Oil and filter change at winter hauling, fuel filters in Spring-that's it. Boat handles/docks/maneuvers better with the bigger props diesel allows you to have, and last but not least, higher resale value.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Feb 2nd, '10, 19:16

walterk hit the some points on the differance between gas and diesel but everyone leaves out the main gig. modern diesel engines are almost entirely fresh water cooled outside off the spinkler head . saltwater combined with metal and sulfuric acid from exhaust will self destruct gas engine exhaust system and that is 50 times the price of sparkplugs/ignition every year maint. parts.there is alot more to be said about gas engines with torque curve and other not so good technicallties.let just say go diesel at first conversion.take a mid point on purchase you cannot buy "buddy boy "first off but you can buy a diesel only conversion no interior or fiberglass inprovements for alot less and still use boat with inprovments in the winter.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Feb 2nd, '10, 22:49

I just converted from gas to diesel. Granted, I had a short year, just long enough to give it some shake down, but with the change in rudders (bigger) and the torque of the diesels, I feel like I just went from a Ford Fairlane to a Porsche and I only put in the 270 Cummins.

Outboards are a different story. Might be easier to maintain but you will spending close to 40 grand every 7 to 10 years maybe less, hanging a new outboards off the back of that whaler. The diesel will still be humming along like it was built yesterday.

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Feb 2nd, '10, 23:03

moguls you stirred up a hornets nest with that question! there are pluses and minus to both. I bought a new truck recently i weighed my options between gas and diesel. make a list of the pros and cons and go with which ever one fits your needs. Obviously a diesel is awesome, but so is a pair of big blocks. currently for me, and how little i get to use the boat, it doesn't make sense to spend the money on diesels, as with a truck they are considerably more expensive and yes they get better mileage, but with diesel at 2.89 a gallon, you have to drive a long long long time to make up for it. PLUS with our wonderful government who knows what the new diesel regs will be. Look it up you cant buy a chevy or ford with a diesel right now because of new emissions which include extra filters, and additives and BS

Brewster... bust out the sandpaper and wax, and i get that gel coat would look awesome. my 40 year old gel coat does! well except for where some dumb ass used white to make a little repair.

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Feb 2nd, '10, 23:53

Would I rather have diesels? Sure. But gassers do have their advantages--you can slow troll without trolling valves, they're quiet, and I've never had anybody get sick from the diesel smell. In terms of annual maintenance, a set of plugs, 5 qts oil and filter, a fuel filter, and I'm pretty much done--cheap--and no more expensive than diesels (Walter--anybody still doing points, condenser, rotor, etc., should update to electronic). If you need a mechanic, gasser mechanics work cheaper than diesel guys, and they're easier to find. For what I do, which is run around the Chesapeake and fish and cruise, gassers are perfect. If you want a canyon boat, there's no doubt I'd go diesel. I've run a diesel B31 and my gasser B31, and while they're a little different around the dock and under way, I don't find one alot better than the other in general handling. 300 hp diesels are faster, but 496s would keep up just fine.

As explained above, conversions aren't cheap--but when you're done, everything is new and hopefully done right. But you're changing water intakes and hoses, shafts, shaft logs, exhaust, engine beds and motor mounts, batteries and battery cables, strut work, and something to get more air to the motors--oh yeah, we haven't even gotten to motors and gears yet.

Try to get an idea of how you'll really use the boat, and that'll help you with the best way to start.

My 2 cents

John F.

Mhiggins · Post by **Mhiggins** » Feb 3rd, '10, 01:08

I am 31 years old and got my 31 sportfisher 3 years ago. Very solid boat with 330hp 454. Boat was repainted about 5 years before I got it and was rewired in that time. Every spring I throw alittle $$$ into it. It is like an old car, it is never done. I would look for a solid boat and restore as you go. Or if you have the money and like to see your account go down, buy one restored. Thats a tuff thing to swallow. As far as gas vs diesels go. I'll rebuilt the 454, sure they like to drink a bit but I don't burn alot of fuel a summer. I'll use around 3-4 tanks a year. Then again I really don't have too much time on my hands. Good luck and you made the right decision for a boat. Everytime I take it out, someone compliments the boat.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Feb 3rd, '10, 09:10

john f don`t forget anybody casting a opinion from new york has a tainted memory. with the advent of alcohol every that can go wrong did go wrong at the worst possible time!!! nothing is spared not even the damm roto-tiller,chainsaw . like poison destroys every gas engine and most of all on the water. we have so many "blow ups " in the yard i lost count.ny and 5 states have to bare with this so in your case have fun with your 454 engine we don`t have a option. anymarina on the water has there gas sitting in underground tanks basicly untouch from oct. to march. what do you think that going to do to your 15 year old engine? the real deal is a guy who is going to buy a boat for lets say less then 30 mile trips by all means use the gas engines until they need to be replaced and even then the new fuel injection ones were made for the crap and hold up.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Feb 3rd, '10, 09:22

OOooo the Diesel Gas Debate...

If your going to use the boat for long hauls, look for diesels. More range, less fuel consumption.

If you plan to use the boat local (like I do) then gassers become a valid choice.

Both have maintenance issues, diesels may have less intervals between problems but they tend to be more expensive.

My 440 big blocks have been in my boat for about 25 years, overhauled once about 18 years ago. A few exhaust manifolds, Intake Pan, Carbs and two sets of Copper Risers along with basic maintanance and they still run very well.

I did have 3 years of grief due to Ethanol, but that was because of the tank, not the motors fault.

Figure out how your gong to use the boat, look at your budget and the choice becomes clear.

My .02

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Feb 3rd, '10, 12:27

Here in MD we got E-10 a couple of years after NY/NJ, and I learned from everbody else's experience. I never ran E-10 through my f'glass tank (anybody want a tank?), and put in a new aluminum tank and haven't had any problems. I also run my boat down to fumes before I put her up. If your're on a budget, gassers work pretty well. If I had the $$, I'd go diesel also, but have 2 kids in HS (Sr. and Soph) getting ready to start college. For what that's gonna' cost, I could repower with diesels, get the boat painted, get an original '69 Z-28, a nicely done '55, and still have alot left over. So it goes....

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Feb 3rd, '10, 12:53

John F. wrote:Here in MD we got E-10 a couple of years after NY/NJ, and I learned from everbody else's experience. I never ran E-10 through my f'glass tank (anybody want a tank?), and put in a new aluminum tank and haven't had any problems. I also run my boat down to fumes before I put her up. If your're on a budget, gassers work pretty well. If I had the $$, I'd go diesel also, but have 2 kids in HS (Sr. and Soph) getting ready to start college. For what that's gonna' cost, I could repower with diesels, get the boat painted, get an original '69 Z-28, a nicely done '55, and still have alot left over. So it goes....

Thanks John, real depressed now as I have two girls in grammer school, one starting to look to high school. Every time I figure a way to come up with some extra cash they find a way to spend it before it actually come in...

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Feb 3rd, '10, 13:28

It's a woman thing. You are not alone.

Charlie J · Post by **Charlie J** » Feb 3rd, '10, 13:29

i have 3 girls, one left in college another year, its not easy, if i had to do it over i would start saving when i was around 5 years old.

JohnCranston · Post by **JohnCranston** » Feb 3rd, '10, 14:05

John F,
Tell your kids to get their butts in gear and let them work their way through college and then blow their college fund on your boat and a 302 powered z28. I had a 68 Z when I was a kid but I always liked the 69's cowl induction hood...ah...the memories. By the way, we're paying for 1 kid in college and he's not hitting a lick except for going to school and goofing off...just the way it is now a days.

Bertramp · Post by **Bertramp** » Feb 3rd, '10, 16:32

I presently own a 31 Bahia Mar. Years ago I owned a FBC. I sold the FBC after going away to Connecticut for a four day Columbus weekend and having it rain for three of the days. It was myself, my wife at the time (now "the ex") and my son who was around six or seven. That cabin got REAL SMALL, REAL FAST in that scenario. I view all 31s to be basically day boats, which is why when a Bahia came up I was OK with it. I could crash on the FBC on weekends and be happy, but when weather makes you stay in the cabin .... I will refer you to that famous quote from my favorite movie Jaws "we're gonna need a bigger boat"

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Feb 3rd, '10, 21:58

all you guys are scaring me! i have a 3.5 year and a 2 year old, my wife has already got them on "waiting" lists for schools and is talking about wanting more! i should have never bought a boat.... i'm screwed! all i want is is a Z06, or a Ferrari never gonna happen. and i worked my balls off through most of high school and all of college, get them kids to work!

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Feb 3rd, '10, 22:16

Buying the boat was the smartest thing you did. Think about it. The time will come when working on the boat will keep you from killing them. Take it from someone whose been there.

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Feb 3rd, '10, 22:20

LMAO
so true.

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Feb 4th, '10, 09:44

I'm with Walter.

My 31 Alchemy has helped me keep my sanity through many challenges during the past 12 plus years. Wow, has it been that long?

And when I have children, I can't wait to share the joy she brings to me with them. I love hanging on her, swimming off her, fishing with her, and sharing all that comes with that with Liz, family and friends.

That being said, she will always be my refuge. As long as I have her. And I plan to have her for as long as she will have me...

D

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Feb 4th, '10, 10:02

Brewster Minton wrote:You wont know what to do untill you have run the boat and you have become close freinds. My boat is one of my dearest freinds.

For some reason it becomes part of you.

Capt.Frank · Post by **Capt.Frank** » Feb 4th, '10, 10:32

I bought my FBC w/ Deisels 17 plus years ago. I knew that I fished hard in my 20's and 30's and wanted fuel range. Plus back then fuel was $ .70 a gal. Time has changed. Now w/kids 5 & 7 they want to fish and go out in the boat. If I didn't have to replce a motor last summer. I was going to redo the interior and electronics. Get a running boat and do a little every year. My problem is its time to start doing some projects over again. Best thing I ever bought.
My .02
Frank

Bertramp · Post by **Bertramp** » Feb 4th, '10, 11:47

I've done work on boats that I never would have wanted to do on a house. On the house, in most cases I would find a contractor and write a check if I could. The time spent crawling in a bilge or with a paint roller lying underneath a boat is GOLDEN. If you don't LOVE boats, owning one makes absolutely no sense, when you think about the expense, the time and the aggrevation !
And ... I still think of 31s as "day boats", but they can offer you some of the best days of your life !!

Bob H. · Post by **Bob H.** » Feb 4th, '10, 14:49

I too have taken my boat as far back as one can go, now that I am getting "closer" to being done I cant wait to put her in the water and spend time fishing and running her around out in the canyons. When I bought the boat I had no doubt "it" was the boat I wanted. A 1966 Bertram Bahia Mar that had been ridden hard...four years later I have learned so much, mostly about what you "can do" if you put your mind to it. Listening to you guys who have run em for years and call them "your best friend", I can truely understand what your saying...I know my Bertram will get me home from some nasty stuff one day...thats what friends do..when you put your heart and soul into something...a true friend never lets you down. BH

I added link below to show you guys the progress...

Charlie J · Post by **Charlie J** » Feb 4th, '10, 14:59

bob
like brew said i want to see it at greenport this year.
no link?????

Bob H. · Post by **Bob H.** » Feb 5th, '10, 09:14

CWJ, Click the www on bottom of my post and it will put you into my photobucket, pictures go from today back to begining...140+ pictures..I have more to load next week, exhaust fuel tanks etc., been sanding and fairing bilge areas( a not so glamorous task)..I hope to have it in this summer, may need a hand held gps and vhf to get me to Greenport..back to work.BH

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Feb 5th, '10, 09:30

Looking good.

Charlie J · Post by **Charlie J** » Feb 5th, '10, 09:32

bob looks great, i would like to see how the v berth and cabin come out , thats the only thing thats original on mine

Ironman · Post by **Ironman** » Feb 5th, '10, 11:58

Bob:Those are some fine pics... thats starting from scratch..
Wayne

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Feb 5th, '10, 15:16

Bob-

Very impressive....she looks great. Nice work.

John F.

Rocky · Post by **Rocky** » Feb 5th, '10, 21:40

Wow Bob, hadn't realized the work you've already completed, looks great!

Bob H. · Post by **Bob H.** » Feb 7th, '10, 17:35

Thanks for the support, Walter, Wayne, John, Charlie, Rocky..I know you guys can appreciate what Ive done so far...I put in the saddles this weekend, primed the bilge area, put backer blocks for raw water, and Tony Athens has the exhaust done for me, Harry..Tony was very impressed with those plates you made...quality work he said...getting closer one step at a time. BH

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