Trick / Method for Brightwork on flat surface

ianupton · Post by **ianupton** » Jul 11th, '09, 08:42

I came across this, have not attempted myself, but this looks pretty cool for acheiving near flawless brightwork on a flat surface.

http://duckworksmagazine.com/03/r/artic ... bottom.htm

Ian.

Bob H. · Post by **Bob H.** » Jul 11th, '09, 18:41

Great tip...thanks for posting..I use peel and ply on all my epoxy work, now I cant wait to do some finish work and try that film...I HATE SANDING...BH

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jul 12th, '09, 09:38

i wonder is this the method they use on a teak and holly floor and do you have to use the 4oz. cloth over perfectly flat teak and holly plywood to get this effect???? capt. patrick what method did you use on the beautiful floors of "buddy boy" ?? i would think you would have to follow this up with some kind of uv varnish. what do the big boys use for longivity??

scot · Post by **scot** » Jul 12th, '09, 10:44

Very nice Ian, I would like a finish like that for the V-berth wood, thanks.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Jul 12th, '09, 11:04

Frankly, this is one of those techniques that sounds and looks great, but in practical use is less than the "GREAT IDEA" that it is portrayed...

The big downfall is in trying to get rid of ALL bubbles under the film and maintain a constant film thickness. Not so hard on small very flat surfaces, but as the size becomes larger and the surface becomes more complex, the technique falls apart.

While the author shows you he's doing a whole hull, the actual amount of the finished product where the plastic film is being removed is quite small. What about those areas where it didn't work so well?

I have tried many variations of this technique, and never been completely satisfied with the results. More often than not, the problems that arose only led to more work than if I hadn't used it. As I stated in an earlier post,

Nothing is Easy...

In the case of using the technique with epoxy, you still have to add a protective coating over the epoxy, so sanding has not been eliminated, and, at best, only reduced somewhat. Patching in spots that don't work out as planned will cause a far greater time and material loss than is saved by the spots that did work out.

High quality final finishing is only accomplished in the old fashioned way. Addition and subtraction... Apply material, sand off material until the surface is as smooth as it can be. The higher the gloss desired, the more effort it'll take to achieve a glass like surface. The less shine a surface has, the less critical a true flat/fair surface is.

The cabin sole on "Buddy Boy" consisted of many coats of sprayed on urethane over an epoxy base. After every few coats of urethane were laid down, it was allowed to fully cure and block sanded to finally get the degree of leveling that I wanted before applying the final 2 wet coats. Using the "Film Technique" over the epoxy coat would not have saved me 10 minutes of effort and easily could have cost me several hours of wasted time...

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jul 12th, '09, 12:27

thanks a million capt. patrick i just could not see that method on the floor boards of a 31 bert. i know dug and a few of us have already did the teak and holy thing and use either finish 1/4" or 1/2" teak & holly plywood over plywood,or coosa board in my case and the finish will be done your way and buju had the same thing in mind -----hard work but the safe method.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Jul 12th, '09, 13:03

I should point out that I'm not telling everyone that the film technique is BS, it's not... Nor that you shouldn't even try the technique out. If you like to play with these sort of things, by all means, try it. But do it on an assortment of test panels, not your "many labor hours invested" project as your test.

Also be aware of the type of film you play with. It has to stand up to any thermal heat generated by the resin, not be chemically affected by the resin, it needs to be off of a roll so that there are no creases in the plastic, and using suitable rollers and pressure to work the bubbles out. The more complex the surface, the more flexibility in the plastic you'll need. The thickness of the plastic can help you or hurt you. Too rigid of a plastic, combined with thickness of the plastic, will yield a substantial amount of memory to the material; it'll want to revert back to it's rolled condition, pulling away from the resin before it cures.

Like any technique, in any medium, there is a learning curve that will be very shallow to very steep. After many attemps at using this particular technique, I'd place the learning curve here in the pretty steep catagory.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Jul 12th, '09, 15:19

I can hear it now in many homes,

Honey where did you put the roll of Saran wrap?

wmachovina · Post by **wmachovina** » Jul 12th, '09, 18:24

Bob, My cabin sole was done like yours, coosaboard (glassed on both sides) 1/4" teak and holly ply. Then it was multiple coats of west epoxy then varnish. I tried awlbrite but nearly died in the application so varnish it is. the only problem is I like satin and the Chief likes high gloss, so I need to work on my gloss application technique. My head has a shower (Chief) so it has many many coats of west-looks like a bar top but seals nicely. Bill

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jul 12th, '09, 19:14

bill i used the clear awlbrite on the pod (bridge steering) what a pain i think the activator has a shelf life of one day and afterwards you can`t open the can the next day it crystalize . fabulous finish after 20 coats but would be a differcult job on the cabin sole .great to hear from a brother doing the same adventure coosa board glassed and then a finish .i see you went with epoxy and then varnish i was going to go with the resident expert buju and apply mutible coats of epifanes rapid clear. i have use this on a the solon table and loves the fact i don`t have to deal with a skin over can of varnish the next day as well as a nice product to work with , so i am sold on this rapid clear but you have me thinking do i need to apply epoxy first? is it the way to go for interior use??? like i mention in my prior post the 1/4" teak /holly is flat already why let a novice like me make it look like the ocean??

scot · Post by **scot** » Jul 12th, '09, 20:45

My V berth sole is tiny, I may try it, just to say I tried it. I could see how vertical panels could be a real nightmare. It appears that i'm a glutton for "learning curves"

BTW, any of you guys have a small peice of the teak & holley left over? I hate to buy & ship a 4 x 8 sheet just to cover 2 1/2 x 3 1/2! Be happy to pay you for it.

wmachovina · Post by **wmachovina** » Jul 12th, '09, 23:42

Bob the guys that did my veneer worked at Garlington and swore west epoxy buildup and sand about three times then varnish till you love, the Chief"s happy, and varnish can be done again and again andaginaginaginagin

wmachovina · Post by **wmachovina** » Jul 12th, '09, 23:47

It seems the epoxy builds up faster than varnish, I was payin by the hour and they said more bang for the buck, also Mount Gay doesn't spot!

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jul 13th, '09, 06:56

thanks bill you answered the question i have ask so many.the expoxy application just shorten the process .funny how your chief and my chief totally influence the interior of my "fishing boat" that is sissy boat .actually a women`s interior design removed all that horrible 1970 inmitation wood ----------formica ugh!!

wmachovina · Post by **wmachovina** » Jul 13th, '09, 09:30

Bob, by the way, when you get the west- thy sell some that has a UV inhibitor , keeps the teak darkening or is it lightening, oh well you get it. Bill

Buju · Post by **Buju** » Jul 13th, '09, 16:12

This seems like a great application... but I think several are misunderstanding when to use it.

Only when you wet out, and laminate glass cloth over wood.

Usually, when this is done, it takes several coats of epoxy applied, cured, and sanded to get rid of the raised weave pattern of the glass cloth. With this technique, you appearently apply a bit too much epoxy resin (more than needed to wet out the glass) then lay the film and hard roll the crap outta it. BINGO- smooth(ish) surface, and in one epoxy application. Scuff sand, wash for blush, alcohol wash, and apply varnish or whatever clear coat you want.

This technique wouldn't help at all on a clear epoxy application without any glass in the resin.

scot · Post by **scot** » Jul 13th, '09, 16:34

You guys stop pee'in in my corn flakes!!! I need to believe there is "somewhere" on this project that something is fast, easy and yields professional results.

Buju · Post by **Buju** » Jul 13th, '09, 17:23

Come on Scot, now you know that:
If something is fast and easy, the results wouldn't be called "professional".

You're just trying to clear coat over the cabin sole? Easy enough.
A diluted coat of epoxy, cure, sand w/ 220, alcohol wipe clean.
Straight coat of epoxy, cure, sand w/220, wash, alcohol wipe.
Epifanes Rapidclear, let dry 3 hrs.
Epifanes Rapidclear again, let dry 3hrs.
Ditto
Lightly scuff sand with 220, then 400, wipe with solvent saturated rag.
Apply final varnish coat ( Epifanes-not rapidclear, Petit 1015, whatever) or two... this will look like you can dip your finger in it.

And on a 3'x4' flat section will probably take 3 days, with no more than 6 to 7 actual hours of labor invested in it.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jul 13th, '09, 17:28

buju thank for clearing up this post is it imperative to use epifanes on last coat----------why.i am using you exact method on my teak & holly interior floor but was wondering about last step.--------thanks

Buju · Post by **Buju** » Jul 13th, '09, 17:53

Bob, no it is not imperitive to use Epifanes on the final coat... or at all for that matter.
I think where Epifanes outlasts or outperforms the other varnishes is in it's UV resistance. Patrick could probably point out a few other aspects. But on the cabin sole, it's really an interior app, as opposed to something like a rocket launcher, or a bow toerail.
Personally, I've always liked Petit 1015 Captain's Varnish. Interlux Schooner is supposed to be good as well. The choice is yours... there's alot of them out there.

The reason I like the Epifanes Rapidclear and Rapidcoat (pigmented) are the fast dry time, and the ability to recoat without sanding between coats. But if you apply too many coats without sanding between them, every speck of dust will be a lump by the 3rd or 4th coat... so don't let that happen... obviously.
I've succesfully used Rapidclear as the final coat as well, on barstools and other furniture, but the dry film is a little softer than most other varnishes, so that is the reason to topcoat it with a proper spar varnish.

To summerize, Epifanes would be a good choice... but it's not the only choice.

bertram31.com

Trick / Method for Brightwork on flat surface

Trick / Method for Brightwork on flat surface

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