bertram31.com

After a lot of debate, I can not afford Diesels, but both the 454 engines I have are shot. One has 4800 hours and the other 3600 hours. One is way down on compression and the other had a lifter shatter last year and dumped tons of metal into the engine. I changed the lifter and finished the season, but I can not trust these motors anymore.

So the question is I have found two new complete engines RH and LH rotation and wanted to know what you guys thought of the price. These are NEW (not rebuilt) complete engines. I did not want to transfers over 30+ year old ignition, intake, carb, oil pan, etc. They include everything including plugs, wires, water pump, oil pan, fuel pump, carb etc. and new ceramic coated exhaust and riser, couplers, engine mounts, and shipping for $17K for both with warrantee. Is this a good price or should I keep shopping.

Assuming they are 454's, $17K seems pretty pricey when you can get a brand new 385hp 8.1 Crusader with gears for just under $26K. Or you could get a pair of 370hp 6.0's with gears for about $25K.

http://www.affordablemarine.com/crusader.htm

http://www.dougrussell.com/Products/ind ... Category=6

2 years ago I sold my 1300 hour 454's with gears on Ebay for $1800. No way new ones are worth $17K.

Doug That is 8k per complete new engine and I don't want to get into a problem fitting in larger engines. That also includes new exhaust and risers and fresh water cooling system, engine mounts, just about everything except starter and raw water pump.

Plus 1K for shipping. I

thought about buying engines on ebay, but I don't want to get them in and have trouble with them while offshore or for that matter even at the dock. I have had very bad experiences with "rebuilt" engines and finding complete engines, not just long blocks is hard.

The price s/be $14000.US and drop 'em in. Shop around.
You know when people say, " Hey! For eight grand more you can get -----." Everthing is a few grand more. Should I get the fried calamari or the shrimp cocktail? Beefeater or Gordons'.

But this is what one of our brothers said when converting from gas to diesel. He paid $12000.US for a pair of 250HP Cummins. The engines came out of Billy Joel's 31. Five yrs ago! They were complete set up w/trannies, maiflolds .... the works. "It wasn't the engines that costs that much. The switch over killed it".

Thanks Dick, so my price is actually about right if you look at
7K for each engine + cooling
1K for exhaust, coupler, engine mounts for each motor

for 8K per engine plus 1 K for shipping. The counter rotating engine was more, but I am just averaging that in. I just don't want to lift the engine cover again for years except to check and change oil and winterizing. It is always the extras that make the price go up. Yes you can get that car for 12K, but by the time you drive away with it your 17K in the hole.

Scott-

Sounds OK to me, but who's doing the marinizing--quality/design of raw water manfolds, pumps, etc. matters. If they're new old stock mercs. or crusaders, I'd jump on it.

I thought that GM 454s for marine use at one point had different cranks/pistons than car motors. Don't know if that's the case, or if that matters, and maybe Bruce or Bob has the answer.

I didn't know GM was still building 454s.

From your numbers, you can do a complete gas repower, and get your gears rebuilt, for under $20K. Good deal. I'd expect closer to $28K or $30K for 496s w/gears.

Let us know how it turns out. Us gassers need to know.

John F.

John They are advertised as new Mercriuser 7.4 GenVI engines

Here is a link:

http://www.perfprotech.com/store/produc ... 69238.aspx

Hey Scott: I hope the winter is going well. Have you talked to these guys? They are in your back yard and you could save on shipping and work something out with the tax. They have some Crusaders that they call refurb but are essentially new. And, what happened? Break too many knuckles in the slip at the ECYC last year? www.1800runsnew.com

scott i have 20 yr old 7.4s we cant complain. by the way where have you been we miss you at the NE PARTIES

If you do want diesels just be patient and shop around, boatdiesel and the like often have pretty decent deals. I rolled the dice on my rebuilt Cummins 6BTA 300hp for 12K for the pair and 15K total including ZF trannys.

--JK

I agree. If you have cash, sit tight. There are bargins to be had......

Scott, you can do real good in today's economy. If you really now how to shop you can make a killing. Cash is king in today's world. When you make the offer have a couple of K's in your hand. Good Luck

Scott-

They may be giving you Merc. manifolds, but it looks like a package somebody put together on a GM longblock. The distributor/coil is delco, which I believe is GM and that Merc. used their own stuff, and the carb is a Holley, where I thought Mercs. came with Rochesters. I'd ask alot of questions.

The motors Capt. Pat linked to are 350 smallblocks. There's a local Bay B31 owned by Jim that has smallblocks in it, and he says they do just fine. The hp may be similar, but the torque curve for a 350 and 454 are very different, with the 454 making lots more torque.

A local marina owner by me told me last summer that he can get ahold of new Mercrusiers at a good discount when Merc. takes them back from a boat manufacturer that doesn't need them. I don't ask, because I wasn't ready to do anything, but its an idea. I've got a feeling that the way thigns are going there's going to be a number of marine engines around looking for homes.

John

Guys thank you for the input. I am sure that if I look really hard I can do better, but I really don't have the time. The engines I had literally “limped” through the end of the summer. I actually left the boat on the Vineyard and took the ferry because it was blowing 25 knots and 6 to 8. I know the boat would make it no problem, but the constant loading and unloading on those engines would increase the chances of them blowing up. And coming home on a half an engine could have gotten a little too interesting. I just need to pop in a set of engines over a week end. Time is tight when raising three teenaged daughter without much help, making the business survive, etc. I actually did talk to the Marine engines place because they are going to be at the Providence Boat show this weekend. All they could offer was a long block and then sell carb for 500 ea, Intake for 700 ea, water pump, etc. By the time I had a complete engine it was going to be 15K per engine. I will go to the show this weekend and see if maybe they can really do something for me. John if you or anyone else knows of a set of new engine looking for a home, I am all ears, but I need to get them delivered by mid March.

Neil and Mark, sorry I haven’t had a chance to do much lately, This divorce stuff really cuts into the free time. I love having my daughters and being alone with them means my time has to be spent with them. Also with bad engines and Gas at $5+ a gallon means trips on the boat were cut way down. Hopefully this summer gas will be a lot less and I will have engines I can trust to get me and my girls back home. Take care guys and if anyone has a line on some engines, let me know. I will be at the boat show this weekend to see if I can get any deals.

Scott,

How are you!!!! Good to see/hear you here. I hope your daughters are all doing well, and you are too. I know things must be rough at times, and that this was a while coming. You did you best to keep it on track. Good to see you again.

On the topic of engines, I do agree that there is a lot of metal going begging right now. I would call a couple of the repower houses and see if they have any good iron sitting, looking for a home. Places like Johnson Marine in RI and Bayside Diesel are good places to ask.

STAY THE ###### AWAY FROM MARINE ENGINES!!!!!!! I mean the place MARINE ENGINES, not marine engines to power your boat. They are crooks of the first degree. I bought a pair of "good, useable" 440 Chryslers there years ago and they lied to me straight faced. The engines were junk. Stay away from them if you know what is good for you.

I hear where you are coming from with the boat vs. the time. Sometimes we have to remember that time = money. I hear what you are saying.

Good luck and talk with you soon,

Dug

scott
just called my marina, they dont have any low hr engines at this time

Hey Dug:

Thanks for the heads up on Marine Engines. When I talked to them the guy on the phone didn’t seem to have a clue. I told him I wanted complete engines and he said they have rebuilt long blocks and I should just take my old stuff off the old motors and put them on the new engine. I told him that scraping and cleaning an old intake manifold all weekend when I could get a new one wasn’t a good use of my time and considering that the starboard engine had so much metal in the oil from the exploded lifter I didn’t need to send it out for testing, the oil sparkled in the sun light. In my mind it would be stupid to spend all that time insuring that no metal shavings migrated into the new engine. Also I have had “rebuilt” motors blow up after only a few hours of use. Actually had one blow a baseball sized whole in the block from connecting rod while on the DYNO. Turns out only 1 nut was on the connecting rod and as soon as the motor hit 5K under load it just broke loose. You never know what “rebuilt” really means and trusting some Mexican who built the motor on the 6th of May is not what I want to trust my family’s safety to.

Dug I remember your pains with those motors a few years ago. Alchemy was running about as reliably as the Tubb. But if it weren’t for them, you wouldn’t have those nice yannies humming along. So you should be thankful to them. I will keep looking and maybe someone on this site knows of a nice set of engines looking for a class A home, but in all reality, I have to order something in the next few weeks.


and CWJ thank you for taking the time to call. It is apprisiated.

scott
no problem, just called another place, and they have not done any re powers this winter, economy sucks

Scott-

There a couple of sets in boat diesel. The ones by Siebert have been there awhile. That may be another way to go.

John

Scott, Those were the engines...

Get in touch with Bob Lico. Maybe he could help. He always seems to have something up his sleeve...

D

As I think John F. pointed out, th 6.4L mercs are 320 hp and are considered the "replacement" for the 454. I ran into a B31 owner here in Annapolis that repowered with them last summer. He said the small blocks lightened up the boat sigfinicantly, allowing him a solid 23/24 kt cruise. He also mentioned that they were much more fuel efficient than the 454s (imagine that). My mechanic did the work and apparently did not have to do much in the way of modifications (engine beds were about it I believe). New mercs (actually from merc. and not a rebuilder) would certainly give you peice of mind when traversing Vineyard sound!! I beleive I saw a $9k price tag on them last year at the boat shows.

Good luck and keep us up to speed on what you decide.

dug what i have " up my sleeve is steer him to diesels"and he set on gassers.

Scott: The guys in Mass also have these used 454's they have had for quite awhile. I wonder if you coulld buy them for consierably less (perhpas $5K for the pair). Obviously, you'd have to give them a solid look over but they have low hours.

http://www.1800runsnew.com/NLM/used-NLM.html

Scott... I'm in the middle of a gas repower (budget concious)... and have found some interesting options at the following site:

http://www.michiganmotorz.com/Marine+Engines

The have complete turn-key new marine inboard 8.1L 385 or 450 hp for $11,599.

I have been on the phone with them a couple of times and even talked with one of their mechanics. You might want to take a look.

PaulJ

Well I just got back from the boat show and Talked to the “gentlemen” from Marine Engines aka 1800Runsnew.com. These are the guys that politely said screwed dug. I went to their booth and showed them the quote I got for 17K plus shipping and the owner of the place quote ”go to Oklahoma, I don’t want to do business with you”. WTF, I have money and was willing to buy that day and the guy would not even talk. What a jerk, I hope he goes out of business soon with an attitude like that. Especially because I had two of my daughters with me and the guy was rude and just plain a jerk. I went to Johnson’s boatwork’s booth and talked with Eddie. He has a set of 496 fuel injected 425HP engines. He was a nice guy to deal with and I bought the complete engines for 15K. Hopefully I can repower to diesel in a few years and I am hoping he will do the work. I went back to marine Engines and told him what an idiot he is to turn away people with money in this economy and the people he was talking to I sent to Johnson’s boatworks. As Dug pointed out, don’t ever do business with them. Not only a jerk, but I could never deal with a business that 2 minutes into a deal tells you to go away. Could you imagine what it would be like is a dispute arose?
Well I wanted 454’s but the 496 Fuel injected engines will fit and may even give better MPG. Thanks for your help and I will have the boat running soon.

throttle body injection averages 15% savings over carb and multiport averages 30% over carbs.

carburetor is nothing but a waterfall for gas.

Faster throttle response, easier starts. Never have to pump the throttle on startup again.

Good deal, good luck.

Scott,

That is fantastic! Congratulations. Eddie is a very good guy by all reports and will stand by his products I think.

Sorry about your experience with Marine Engines, though I can't say I'm surprised...

Take care my friend, and let me know if you need a hand.

D

Scott-

Congrats. The 496s HOs make the extra 40 hp or so up top--the next time the diesel boys want to race, you'll smoke 'em, at least for a short burst. Sounds great to me.

John F.

carburetor is nothing but a waterfall for gas.

Made me laugh, very accurate description.

Good luck with those engines, she'll be a beast.

Eddie did the diesel conversions for a few of the 33 guys. He's a real good guy. Is he doing the install or are you just buying the motors from him? Were these running take-outs?

John F. wrote:Scott-
the next time the diesel boys want to race, you'll smoke 'em, at least for a short burst. John F.

Until he runs out of fuel.......

Scott,
I blew a starb engine in '07 (504 cummins). I was struggling with the decison of going with new Diesel Iron or trying to find something good used. I called Eddie told him my dilema. He responded that he had a rebuilt 504 0 hours sitting in storage and it was the same rotation (imagine that). I drove down we pulled the engine from storage and started it right in the lot. We agreed on a price he loaded it on my truck and gave me a 30 day warrentee from day of sea trial. I never looked back, he is honest, a gentleman and a pleasure to do business with. By the way he always answers his phone a big deal to me in this day of voice mail hell.

Thanks for all the confidence about Eddie. He seemed like an upfront guy and although 496 Mag HO are probably overkill for the boat, It should fit and work just fine and he had a good price on them. They are 200 hour diesel conversion running take outs. 425 HP with Sequential Multi-Point Fuel Injection, the only thing is I have to get different gears, but Eddie said he would get me some rebuilt ZF gears for 1,500 or possible take my old set up in trade for them. I am not sure what I could get for the Old engines and gears, but if anyone wants lots of good parts I will sell them to someone on the board for the same cost and will donate some money to the board. Everything from starter and raw water pump, gears the whole 9 yards. Just a thought in case someone needs parts for 454’s.

I any case thank you all and I will let you know how it goes. I will probably have to at least put some cup on the props or maybe another inch of pitch.

I did the same last year. I found a local reputable machine shop near Seattle, did all the RnR myself and was into the long blocks about 2k each. These are board 40 over w/new pistons ballanced and blue printed, we also resized the rods, turned the cranks replaced the valve train including cam and lifters, chaines and gears. They run great!!! And most of all when you deal with a local shop and you have a problem you can work it out with them face to face. After all of this I did have one go south on me. They said "somtimes SH T happens" and they took care of it with no questions, and had it back to me in less than a week! They replaced the crank and some rods rebalanced and reasembled, all for free and apologized to me on top of that. So if you want to call Pacific Engine Rebuilders in Tacoma Wa, I only have great things to say. Just helped a friend pull a engine out of another 31 Tue. night that is going to them also.

Scott,

You're on the right track. Diese may be over rated for you uses/budget.

I recently repowered to diesele and while I love every aspect of it, I can't say it was financiallialy worth it Treated right those gas engines should give you several thousand hours of service.

br,
JohnD.