bertram31.com

We have a great local range here that has monthly family pot-luck dinners, safety classes for kids, air-gun range for kids, etc...We just joined and love it.

It's new to me, as I haven't had a lot of experience with firearms, so I'm going very slowly and learning a bunch...which leads me to this question:

I'm interested in persuing a concealed permit, but currently don't have a handgun. I'm sure the braintrust here can provide some information on decisions to make, or questions I should be asking myself, relative to what I should be looking for....

Rick

I have two views: (1) tiny little derringer that is easy to hide and (2) biggest damn gun made, like my Ruger Redhawk .44 mag. revolver that is so big & shiny that the most dope crazed idiiot will have a brain flash "dat man he done gotta gun!" And he do.....go big. Andre's brother Mooney the cop says "if it ain't got a 4 in the caliber it ain't for shooting peoples".

UV

Ricky,

1 Small enough to be tucked into the waist band under a tee-shirt
2 Biggest stopping power that fits #1
3 Semi-auromatic
4 Stainless steel

I have a K40 Kahr that I very much like. 40 cal SS 6 rounds, (5 in the mag, 1 in the pipe). Accurate as hell. A defensive side arm doesn't need a barrel length over 3.5". Most defensive situations are under 25'. I can do 2" groupings at 25' with mine...

Kahr also makes a 45 cal The image will take you to their website.

i know this is a little on the big side for a ccw but i love the gun. Its a Springfield XDM .40 it holds 16 in the mag and 1 in the chamber. If that aint enough I'm just gonna start running haha

Another good choice would be the Para-Ordinance "Carry 12". Same 3.5" barrel, but 12+1 capacity at 45 cal...

I have a couple 45's full sized 1911 that are to big to carry, then I have a few 40's , glock, sig, browning, I shoot the glock the best, and it's the smallest, but I don't like it. I want to pick up one of those springfields scooter was mentioning.

thudd its my first handgun i've owned but i've shot 1911's and beretta 9mms and such. All i have to say I couldnt be more happy with my choice of the first gun to get. Its not really that big compared to a 1911 but its prolly a little bigger than most ccw's it has a 4.5" barrel and is about 7 or so inchs long in total. I also couldn't find another gun similar that held 16+1.

i dont know about permits,but i have a colt listed on the swap and sell site i would love some input on, it is a pretty rare pistol from what i am told, pix are listed on there also, any feed back/ideas on what it is worth would be appreciated

I also don't recommend a beginner carry "Mexican", holsterless

¿Que pasta? Guess ya' gotta' come from near the southern US boarder to have a feel for cold steel on your ass...

Bottom line is make sure you have enough training/practice with the gun to be the man in any situation. I would also recommend as a beginner using a holster. I usually do not use a holster off duty but it all depends on where I am going. Make sure the gun is reliable. Glock is always a good one. They come in a variety of sizes and flavors and are relatively inexpensive. As with all topics there are many opinions and that is my .02

Kevin wrote:Bottom line is make sure you have enough training/practice with the gun to be the man in any situation. I would also recommend as a beginner using a holster. I usually do not use a holster off duty but it all depends on where I am going. Make sure the gun is reliable. Glock is always a good one. They come in a variety of sizes and flavors and are relatively inexpensive. As with all topics there are many opinions and that is my .02

And folks, that comes from a trained professional that lives by the gun... Thanks Oskifer!

Pat,
I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.

Kevin,

Livin' life on the edge, huh?

I don't have much chance of packing a CCW here in the people's republic of MD but if I did I'd probably carry a double action .22 auto. Its small enough to easily conceal, but enough to get you out of an unexpected jam, which is the only reason I'd carry. I'd like to think I'd have the foresight to avoid a situation that might require an all out combat sidearm. .380's are a bitch to shoot, gotta imagine the sawed-off 9's, 40's and 45's are worse (maybe not, typically larger frames than a 380).

With my kids old enough to "know better", I've started fiddling around with pistols again. Picked up these two in the last couple months. The Walther would work for CCW but I'd prefer a Beretta Cheetah or Bobcat.

Guys,

Thanks so much for the input. It turns out that the one gun shop (not pawn etc) is the same folks that are in charge of the range (Moore County Wildlife Conservation Club http://www.mcwcc.org/ ) Really active group of folks. I went by this afternoon and signed up for the CC course...which is designed with the rank beginner in mind (the pamphlet stated that most accidents are due to "experienced" folks being careless) which is great for me.

I discussed all of the info you guys had provided, and we went over several options....primarily I wanted a handgun that would survive a lot of use (practice) and fit with what y'all recommended.

Turns out, my wife wants to take the class too (big, big, big step for her) just for the safety info....great news.

Class starts next week, and they will provide handguns if needed (I'm starting the paperwork for the permit tomorrow).

Thanks all,

Rick

.380's are a bitch to shoot, gotta imagine the sawed-off 9's, 40's and 45's are worse

Steve,

Actually the .380 is far worse than the bigger bores. I had a Sig Sauer .380 and it was undoubtedly the most hateful gun to shoot that I've ever owned. On several occassions, I ran through 50 rounds, and almost always shot at least 12 - 18 rounds. Every time, my hand would hurt for hours or even days. I traded the .380 to a local cop, even-steven, for a Sig P229 40 cal. Now that one's a sweet heart.

I had a LLAMA .380, (looked like a miniture 1911), back when I in the Navy. That one didn't seem too abusive to shoot, but then I was a young hard belly then and nothing hurt...

Ricky,

I got my CCP and enjoyed the class, which was taught by two active law enforcement officers. I have a 9mm by Beretta (92S) and a Ruger P89, both of which I enjoy shooting; but for a CCW I prefer a small pocket revolver due to it's simplicity. I have a S&W 38 Spl. Airweight. It's a 5-round, so it has a narrow profile, and it's hammerless so it is less likely to snag coming out of the pocket. It's a double action with no safety. The law officer that taught our class said that a gun with a safety requires an initial action by the user (or a hesitation to think about the safety) prior to shooting, and that there are plenty of accounts of law officers failing to get off a shot because their safety was engaged. Like everyone else on the board, I hope it never has to be used for personal defense; but if anyone puts a knife to my throat and demands my wallet, then I'll reach in my pocket for the "wallet". Although it's a small caliber, I agree with Bruce's point on the effectiveness of being first.

Tommy

S & W Ladysmith. If you can't get the job done at 15 feet with 5 shots from a .38, you shouldn't be carrying.

Ricky, I got kathi a snub nose 22mag S&W with a bobed hammer. Like Bruce said, it'll get the job done, specially as they probaly arent expecting resistance. I've carried it a few times, fits good in my back pocket

i carry a pocket knife.....but then again i live in a pretty safe place so mostly i cut the twine on the newspaper pile and such.

My Belly gun is a Kel tec P3-AT in 380 with an Armalaser site on it. I don't normally go for laser sites, but this thing is slick and it squares up the shape of the gun so that it doesn't print through as badly when carried in a pocket. Most of the time I am not dressed properly for carrying.

While it may not be the ideal self-defense weapon, it keeps me from violating the first rule of a gun fight: Bring a gun!!! I am much more likely to carry it since it is more convenient than one of my larger guns. With proper ammo and some shooting discipline it should be satisfactory, since my first line of defense is to avoid situations where I might need a gun!

I know I will catch some flak over my wimpy choice, but it works for me.

http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/p3at.htm

http://www.armalaser.com/Products-Kel_Tec_P32_P3AT.html

Bruce wrote: Remember, shot placement not spray and pray.

So true! The laser definately helps with that!

bruce...a friend was showing me these.....personally i carry a stainless folding knife i buy from a bucket at the marina for $2.98. amazingly serviceable...i have 4 or 5.

http://boyeknives.com/Index.cfm?CFID=44 ... 5377249744

I read all the posts, and LOTS of good advice. I too am in law enforcement and a firearms instructor for handgun, shotgun, subgun, and assault rifle. I am a little biased, but SWEAR by the Glocks. Model 23 is mid size .40cal 13+1 in the chamber, small enough for ccw. We carry them on duty and off. I carry a model 27, the sub compact in .40 with a pierce grip on the mag for more comfort, holds 9+1. The Glocks are NO FUSS, NO MUSS...no safeties to disengage, its a fighting combat gun. I do NOT suggest carrying one not in a holster of some type, for safety reasons. We have been carrying (25 man dept) the same model 23's for 10yrs now, and they have NEVER malfunctioned nor needed repair. They each have about 10,000 rds through them over the years, and show little or no wear. Can't beat them for the price, reliability, and they are acurate.

Good luck in your choice and enjoy the class...I still take classes after 10yrs of instructing, you WILL ALWAYS learn something!

dang what kinda neighborhoods are you all living in needing to carry all that firepower. haha

then again if i was able to get a ccw in maryland i'd prolly carry too never know when them somalia pirates might make their way up the Cheseapeake. And want to get ahold of the the first bertram they see. haha

Also my springfield xdm has double stack mags and it feels great but then again i do have big hands, hell i'd carry around a desert eagle if I could. The new xdms also have 3 differents sized grips that you can interchange to suit your hand size which i thought was cool.

scooter28 wrote:dang what kinda neighborhoods are you all living in needing to carry all that firepower.

Well, let's see... Just a few numbers to rattle off in your neighborhood.

A partial listing of reported crimes for Maryland:

Year 2007 (source: http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/mdcrime.htm)

553 Murders
1,179 Forcible Rapes
13,258 Robberys
21,072 Aggravated Assaults
37,095 Burglarys

Total 73,137

Maryland has 12,407 square miles. That's 5.89 violent or potentially violent crimes per square mile state wide...

Yea, I guess you qualify, with the reat of us, as one who'd like to be armed...

Fastest shot in the world
http://videos.komando.com/2009/01/06/fa ... the-world/

CaptPatrick wrote: Well, let's see... Just a few numbers to rattle off in your neighborhood.
Yea, I guess you qualify, with the reat of us, as one who'd like to be armed...

well lucky for me 90% of that occurs around obamas new hometown and baltimore which i live about 2 hrs south of. though they have started migrating south more and more it seems.

also Bruce i hear what you're saying about the Desert Eagle and if it was gold plated you are 100% correct but as far as the all black one goes i think its one of the baddest guns ive ever held especially the .50 ever since the assualt weapons ban expired i've wanted one. I wised up a little though I think and decided on the XDM .40 instead. lol

Another down side to the DE .50 is that most indoor gun ranges won't allow them on the range. And any 50 cal hand gun is a savage beast that needs a lot of practice to master. Good movie gun though... Remember Harley & The Marlboro Man?

If I were considering a DE, it'd be chambered for .357 mag, but then my stainless S&W Secret Service Issue .357, with a tuned trigger pull, already fills that niche.

I have a stainless Walther PPKs .380 acp and a Ruger 357 Magnum and as much as I love the look, size and feel of the Walther, I find the Ruger revolver absolutely foolproof. It's bigger and bulkier than the little Walther for personal carry but I've had the PPKs jam a few times at the range and that spooked me. I was told I have to find the ammunition it likes. For personal carry I feel safer with revolvers. Walter

walter....what range?

Walter,

You've probably got an older model of the PPK and need to be fed solid, non-hollow point ammo.

S&W has made two improvements to the pistol’s original design. The first is a lengthening of the rear tang, to help preclude hammer bite on the web of the shooter’s hand. This is a good thing, because those of us with thicker hands can be bitten by either the hammer or the rear of the slide as it recoils.

Improved Walther PPK/S feed ramp. Photo by David Tong.


The second change is hardly ever mentioned in the popular gun press, but was immediately apparent to this two-time “original” PPK owner. The separate frame and barrel feed ramps have now been re-angled and cut into one continuous smooth surface. PPKs of yore were not known for their reliability with modern jacketed hollow point ammunition, which is unsurprising as the pistol was designed for standard, military type, full metal jacketed bullets and this simple change by S&W now makes the old warhorse a viable choice in the modern self-defense pistol market. Here are S&W's technical specifications for their Walther PPK/S. (http://www.chuckhawks.com/walther_PPKS.htm)

So far I have been a little reluctant to get in this conversation......although I have really enjoyed reading what you guys have posted.

Ya see, I am by no stretch of the imagination qualified to talk firearms.

I once live in a beautiful little sleepy podunk town in South Alabama....I still live here and its still beautiful and its still podunk but its no longer sleepy.

Recently we have been plagued with store robberys (during business hours) home break ins (while the residents are sitting watching TV) we even had a horrific murder/dismemberment at a place about 3 miles from my shop.

I have owned a S&W Model 10 for years and its been several years since I shot it. I used it mostly for snakes while hunting. But recently I started shooting again with self defense in mind.

More recently I decided to try to find a smaller lighter carry weapon, I applied for and was issued a Pistol Permit.

For carry weapon I purchased a S&W Air Lite......reasoning???....It is extremely light (made mostly of aluminum) very small and easy to conceal. The other factors are that I just like revolvers and I think they are very dependable and trouble free. As an added bonus this little gun is hammerless.......and for a carry weapon I thought that would be good.

The down side that I am aware of is that this pistol is not rugged enough to fire thousands of .357 rounds without frame failure in its more delicate areas.

I do shoot it occasionally using .38 rounds spl+p and I keep it loaded with hollow points

I only post this to get some feedback from you guys that are gun experts.........so tell me whatcha think

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Harry[/img]

Harry,

Great choice for a defensive pocket pistol. Ya' done good and no negative comments from this peanut gallery...

I like the fact that you unloaded it before taking the down the barrel shot.

JP wrote:I like the fact that you unloaded it before taking the down the barrel shot.

JP,
Dogs that "Bark Here" and "Bite There" just make me a little nervous..... I don't like being on the Biting end of these things.......See Boy Scouts did teach me something! ! ! !

Harry

Harry, ya need to get rid of some of them s.s. bertram emblems?

Harry,

That is virtually the same as the S&W Airweight that I referred to earlier, only mine is 38 only. Like with boats, often times the "kiss" approach works best (keep it simple, stupid).

Tommy

Like Harry, I too have been reading, thinking and have waited to post. Our house is out in the woods, and while the Boylston Police are great and responsive, we learned on December 12 that we really are out here all alone when the ice storm hit and we were without power for 4 days, which was not bad compared to others nearby. All three plants are in the lovely city of Worcester, where the police are useless as tits on a bull, and the neighborhoods leave things to be desired. I do get called in late at night on alarm calls, and if the cops are there, I will keep it put away, but I do carry when alone. I have carried the Glock 19, but prefer to shoot the Beretta 92 fs stainless I have. That be a nice gun in my opinion. However the larger bore question has me contemplating some further action. I am aware that it doesn't matter the bore if you can't hit the broad side of a barn, so practice is important.

First of all, Bruce, you said the revolver vs. auto question bore further discussion. I would like to hear more. I have been contemplating (for a few years actually) a .357 with a 3-3.5" barrel. Good carry gun? Smith and Wesson for brand...

That being said, I have always thought that the Glock .45 caliber was a great gun. I didn't want the larger sized one, and a smaller frame would be welcome. Unfortunately here in the Republic of MA, we cannot buy that gun unless it is used. IN fact, I am not even sure if we can buy a new glock at all... We cannot buy any Kahr, despite the fact that they are made right here in Worcester!!!! Can you believe that? I guess it is all justified by the fact that Kahr is owned by the Reverend Moon of Moonie fame. Such is life...

Which leaves me with another question. Many of the local gun shops have a high opinion of the newer style S+W semi-auto guns (M&P) series. Any thoughts? I always heard that the older S+W semi auto's were prone to jamming and, well, kinda sucked, but these are supposed to be a vast improvement, and they fit your hand quite well (mine at least.) in the .40 size.

The Para has a great reputation Patrick and I want to go look at them. But right now in my mind it would be between a Glock and the Para-Ordinance or the S+W .357 in a revolver. I like the carry 12 size very much in the para. Maybe the M&P would be a contender too.

I welcome the feedback, and Ricky, thanks for asking the question!

One more thing Bruce, I see that "training" is highly recommended. Any particular type, vs. practice? Are we talking about extricating it from the holster type thing, or just decision making overall? Or gun handling...

Thanks all,

Dug

Tommy wrote:That is virtually the same as the S&W Airweight that I referred to earlier, only mine is 38 only.

Tommy,
Mine says 357 on the barrel but I shoot 38 ammo. I think the 357 is a hotter load.

Most of my adult life I have believed that if you mind your own business, don't look for trouble be aware of your suroundings and stay out of the bad part of town you would not need a weapon.....well I have to say several years ago I decided to change my mind and thats why any more I take Smitty with me......even to Wal Mart..........

What changed my way of thinking was this......One Sunday afternoon Jo Ann and I was riding around in a community on the outskirts of Pensacola.
I was showing her where I grew up and more specifically where one of my best friends lived. As children Billy and I roamed all over Ensley on our bikes.....all hours of the day or night.....no trouble at all.

Well I have to tell you things have changed. I was cruising down the street when I came upon some shady looking charaters........just as I passed them (15 MPH) I heard this young lady (Ha Ha) say "What's this white Mutha F%*#@er doing here........then a car coming from the other direction turned cross ways in the road and blocked me from continuing......

Did you guys know that a Corvette will do at least 65 MPH in REVERSE???....may be even an even hundred......I do know this.....those thuggs hit the ditch when they seen a reasonablly out of control Corvette coming directly at them.

What got me in trouble was that I felt comfortable in the area and did not really pay attention about what was going on....truth is that if I had just looked around, I had warning..........but now trouble seems to be lurking everywhere....ya never know

How can I know if my Pistol Permit will be honored in neighboring states in which I travel?
Anybody know?
Harry

Harry, up here in NE, I need a permit in each state...I think. I know it is true in CT and NY. My MA permit ain't worth the plastic it is made of out of state. And if I want to buy out of state, the gun has to be sent to a dealer in MA to be transferred to me.

Not always easy...

.

How can I know if my Pistol Permit will be honored in neighboring states in which I travel?

Harry,

For starters, FL, GA, AL, MS, & TX all honor each other's CCW permits. As a matter of fact, I still retain a FL carry permit and as long as I keep it current, I don't need to apply for a TX permit. I can renew the FL permit, even though I'm no longer a FL resident. And... I'm pretty sure that anyone from any state can apply for a FL CCW permit, having never been a resident. My neighbor, who's never stepped foot in FL, just got his FL CCW permit, thereby bypassing a lot of additional red tape required by TX.

Vermont allows concealed carry without a license/permit by both residents and nonresidents.

For a more detailed as to which state honor other state's permits, see: CARRY LICENSE RECIPROCITY STATE BY STATE

Goddamned New York City doesn't even recognize New York States CCPs. Walter

Thanks Pat
So I am traveling from Alabama to Texas. I don't see Louisiana on the list.....I guess one thing I could do is get a Florida permit also.

Otherwise what do you do?

Harry

I have a question, as I am not really familiar with Pistols. But I have hunted in my day and have a couple of shotguns. For your average Joe, who just wants home protection, wouldn't a shot gun be a better choice than a pistol. Might screw up you plaster but gives the average guy who is not adept at using a pistol a better chance at hitting the intended target.

Plus there is something about have a shotgun pointed at you that makes you want to think abouot what you are about to do.

Harry Babb wrote:Thanks Pat
So I am traveling from Alabama to Texas. I don't see Louisiana on the list.....I guess one thing I could do is get a Florida permit also.

Otherwise what do you do?

Harry

LA is a bit of a sticking point... They only honor the FL permit IF the holder is a resident of FL.

Me, I play the odds. I carry period, except when flying commercially and/or visiting such right wing states as NY, MA, etc. I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

A concealed weapon, carried by a (generally) law abiding citizen, that doesn't look like a suspect or fugitive, and never shows or speaks of said concealed weapon, probably won't be interrogated by any law enforcement agency. So as long as you keep your nose clean and don't put yourself into John Law's radar beam, you have no more chance of being scrutinized armed as you do being un-armed.

But then should the unlikely occur and you find yourself at the mercy of a scumball and have to defend yourself, obviously your cover is blown... But, that brings you back to the 12/6 equation. Break a law, defend, live, & litigate -or- Obey the law, become a defenseless victim, & possibly an entry in tomorrows obit column. I happen to have more friends that are lawyers than columnists. Life's a gamble no matter what...

Tony Meola wrote:I have a question, as I am not really familiar with Pistols. But I have hunted in my day and have a couple of shotguns. For your average Joe, who just wants home protection, wouldn't a shot gun be a better choice than a pistol. Might screw up you plaster but gives the average guy who is not adept at using a pistol a better chance at hitting the intended target.

Plus there is something about have a shotgun pointed at you that makes you want to think about what you are about to do.

Tony,

Good point, and within the confines of my home, my 12 ga is certainly a front line defender, (but not the only option). However, shotguns and rifles are less portable, harder to control in tight quarters, and, by most people, are kept put away in a cabinet, closet, safe, or other out of the way location.

Where I live now, the crime rate is next to nil, my car keys hang in the ignition more than not, I don't worry about locking doors at night, and never feel the need to keep looking over my shoulder like I did in West Palm. But, (old habits die hard), there is not a spot within my house or shop that I am not within a few small steps of a fire arm, mostly a pistol of significant calibre.

Now, outside of the house? Ain't no way that luggin' around a 12 ga is comfortable, convenient, or stealthy.

I'm unquestionably biased, but my recomendation to you is: Get familar with those nasty little side arms... And yer' name ain't Joe and anyone owning a old Bertram ain't average.

Capt. Patrick I have always found this to be a good site for CCW info.
http://www.carryconcealed.net/

Frank

Thanks, Frank! This a very useful site.

Using the Pack-N-Go trip planner is a great feature, and, Harry, here's the Pack-N-Go info for your AL CCW through to TX:

Traveling from Alabama to Texas
With a Residential Alabama Permit

1. Alabama (Your Starting State)
This State DOES Honor Your CCW Permit.

2. Mississippi
This State DOES Honor Your CCW Permit.
Mississippi Law Sec. 97-37-1 (2) states "It shall not be a violation of this section for any person over the age of eighteen (18) to carry a firearm or deadly weapon concealed in whole or in part within the confines of his own home or his place of business, or any real property associated with his home or business or within any motor vehicle". If you will be traveling on the Natchez Trace Federal Parkway, please contact them directly at (662)842-1572 for their rules & regulation on transporting your firearm.

3. Louisiana
This State DOES Honor Your CCW Permit.

4. Texas (Your Ending State)
This State DOES Honor Your CCW Permit.