bertram31.com

Pickin everyones brains...
Anyone know if this is a hydraulic or air system?

Looks similar to Hynautic. This is hydraulic fluid that runs in a pressurized system. The air pressure gauge is normally attached to a resevoir can that has a fluid level monitor. The steering wheel is attached to pump head with 3 lines running into it I'm not sure what gauge I should look at in your pictures. The wheel when turned may feel/sound like rattling ball bearings in a can its normal. Typical 3-5 turns depending on head displacement lock to lock if the wheel continues past that you may have air in the system or bad seals- check for leaks
Typical pressure is 15-20lbs. I've run them as high as 30lbs with no ill results (they actually steer a little easier- not so good for the seals though)
Its a great system and ranked as the best among those in the field.


Hope it helps

To be perfectly frank, I have never heard of an "air" system. If, in fact your pressure gauge is attached to a reservoir, it sounds like you have a Hydnautic hydraulic system. The easiest way to check would be to crack one of the two fittings feeding into the ram. If hydraulic fluid leaks a few drops when you crack it, you have your answer. Yes, you do pump air into it to pressurize it, and there should be an air valve on the reservoir. The reservoir and the lines however would be filled with hydraulic fluid. Walter

Would it make sense to repair this old system... I mean is it reliable when working? im sure there are bad seals... Or should it be pulled and replaced...?
Thanks
John

You have the Hynautic hyd system and as others say, it is air charged to keep the pressure of the hyd. fluid up. It is in very poor shape, rust everywhere.

I'd suggest you ask some of your questions off this site as you obviously are a real greenhorn. You can email me with basic questions anytime, vlr@rkkdlaw.com. We usually have the policy here that there is no such thing as a dumb question, but you are pushing it. No offense.

UV

A real greenhorn? Thats pretty bold of you. Granted I am only 23 years old but I have already obtained extensive, hands on experience over the past 7 years on many of the newer systems that are out there and simply asked a question and in no way do I feel like it was a "dumb" question and I definitely don't appreciate your harshness towards me at all. I love the style and craftsmanship of these old classics and came here to seek some help from people who know more about them than I do and up until now the people that I have spoken with are friendly, knowledgeable and share a love for these old boats. I am not here looking for trouble just information and opinions and if you would rather criticize me simply don't reply to my posts!
Thanks, John

Jhon, or Whaler 1777....

Ease up a bit.

If Vic calls you a green horn it isn't an insult.

He is going to be one of your best sources for information and knowledge....you just dont know that yet becasuse you are ...well

a green horn.

Welcome.

Peter

John,

Welcome aboard, and hang on for a great ride! Like you, I'm into both Bertrams and Whalers ('76 Whaler 21' OR and a '95 Whaler 24' OR). Peter is right, Vic and the rest of us are here to help you with these old boats that we love. Since Vic is one of our elder statesmen and arguably the most experienced Bertram owner on board, we are all greenhorns to him in one way or another (heck, he helped me by a Bertram 20 from 800 miles away). He was offering to help you with direct dialogue via email, so please take him up on it, he is a great guy and a great resource. I can certainly see where you would have questions about that antiquated steering system, as my Hynautic system has the air pressure gauge attached directly to the hydraulic fluid reservoir, and looks nothing like yours. If you are able to attend one of our events (like the Ft. Lauderdale Boat Show), Vic will the the first to buy you dinner and beverage, and I will be the second!

Speaking of greenhorns, I am definitely a greenhorn in the Whaler world. Judging by the photos of your Whaler, you really know what you are doing. My '76 Whaler had a hole punched through the bottom when I bought it, that I have repaired. Do I have to worry about water-logged foam in the Whaler like we have found in many of the old Bertram 20s? If so, how do I remedy the situation?

Tommy

First off I want to apologize to Vic if I came off too harshly and took his comments the wrong way.. I do appreciate any and all information that is provided to me and am happy to share any information that I have... Hynautic steering is something I know nothing about.....
How big was the hole in your whaler and how long was it left in the water with the hole... Many of the older hulls have seen some kind of water intrusion I have owned 4 Boston Whalers and fortunatley most were trailered throughout their lives... The only thing that I have overheard about getting the water out of the foam is to literally drill 1 or 2 small holes in the lower transom of the boat and let it sit on a trailer or blocks for the off season to dry out then patch them up with a glass repair kit...

where are you located on long island? i am in Bellmore you can stop by any time --what is the name of your boat?

She's the "Summer Winds" I am located 2 towns away..

I have found the Hydnautic system an excellent and reliable one and there is a great source for input, parts and repairs in an outfit called Charman Enterprises at 800-247-6324. Your decision revolves around the condition of what you have and the amount of money it would take to make it functional vs a whole new steering system. The first thing I would do would be to fill the reservoir 2/3 full with non-foaming hydraulic fluid. Attach a hand pump to the air valve and pressurize it to about 30 lbs, Turn both your steering wheels (lower station first) to both sides fully about 20 times until you feel/see the rudders moving. Then go to your upper station and do the same. If both stations are moving your rudders at this time, fine. The upper station might need more turning and you may have to refill and repressurize to do so.
Now, if you're functional, put paper towels under each steering wheel (behind) under the reservoir, the steering ram and along the lines. Record your air pressure and go away for 24 hours. When you get back, see if you've held your air pressure and if there are any signs of hydraulic fluid on any of your paper towelling. If the pressure has held and there are no leaks, your system has held up and you're ready to bleed your lines of any air you have in them. Charman's web site has full instructions on how to do that. The Hydnautic system is fairly simple and if you're lucky, it's held up and needs just a clean-up. Any leaks or failed parts/seals can be repaired , rebuilt or replaced by Charman who are fast, reliable and fairly priced. A new system will have to come from Teleflex who bought Hydnautic. I've found them to be no help on Hydnautic issues.
You will find no one on this site who would look down their noses at another Bertram owner no matter how inexperienced, young or old they may be. Uncle Vic is probably the most helpful of us all so please don't think anything he has said was meant negatively. To know him is to love him and he'll give you the shirt off his back to help you. Walter

And before you do anyting clean up the rams on the cylinder, if you haven't already. Moving it with hardened crud and/or corrosion on them can damage the seals or introduce dirt into the system. Rawleigh

What I want to know is how did you get the pictures on the discussion board? I'm too much a greenhorn to know even how to do that???My Flybridge on my Sportfisherman was a little wobbly and Carver's fixed it and reinforced the mid bulkhead, fixed where the bulkhead was trying to punch through the midship deck and tied it all in together. I would like to put pictures of it on the site because a lot of B-31s I see have a bulge midship from the bulkhead trying to push through and Carver's approach seems to be a pretty good solution. As to steering, my steering was similar, but they're replacing it too. I forget the brand name for the new one, but I could get it for you if you are interested. A friend of mine put the same system when he re did his 31 Express Cruiser and it works very well.

Posting pictures is very simple... What you need to do is go to photobucket.com and set up an "album" photobucket is a site that hosts your photos on their server... When you have uploaded a picture to their site they will give you a hyperlink for that photo (you will see it underneath the uploaded pic) all you need to do is copy that hyperlink and insert it anywhere in the "message body" If you get stuck let me know
-John

That midship bulge youre speaking of... where exactly is it? Cabin floor, hull? I am interested in seeing the pics... If you cant get them on here my email address is
-Thanks again! John

Just to the outboard side of the flybridge support, the narrow area of what I would call deck (it is only about a foot wide at that point) where you would put a mid ship cleat. It is right over/on the center bulkhead. I will see if I can find some pictures.

John,
The boat is really coming along well. Last time I visited I saw the crew working on decks and bulkheads. We'll be out of the water their mid October stop by and have a beer.

Looking forward to it.

Whaler,
The one thing I didn't see in Walters response was this. After filling the system and adding pressure you should find an aluminum junction box with 2- 1/2" locking nuts on it. This is essentially a bleeder box and allows you to remove excess air from the system.
After cracking these open steer the wheel 30 or 40 times in one direction or until you get tired. Then come back the other direction for roughly the same amount of time. Lock the nuts back up pressurize the system again. Do all of your work from the highest steering station and alternate back and forth (air goes up).
The one thing I saw in the pictures of note was the flared copper lines, I would be suspect of these for sure. There are plenty of commercially available plastic lines and connection kits availalbe. If your doing the work yourself open an account with Lewis Marine (they've got a place on Long Island) the catalog will make you drool.

Whaler 1777...

I just replaced all the hoses on what appears to be an original Hynautic steering system.. I found the site below which has excellent info on the installation, filling and bleeding of these, and other, steering system setups... be careful, there are several types of systems.

http://www.fishing-catalog.com/hynautic ... _intro.htm

I don't know anything about the company that maintains the site.. I bought my hoses from a local hydraulic shop, removed and cleaned the exterior of the reservoir, put on a new pressure gauge, and adjusted the tiller arms.. I had no seal leaks so I did not get involved with the cylinders. After hose replacement filling and bleeding the whole system was my main issue.

BTW.. take a close look at your rudder bearings and the shelf they mount on.. my bearings were rusted and the balls were rough.. so I bought replacements locally and installed them.. they are shelf items in most bearing supply houses, and I understand High Tide in FL has a new plastic or composite bearing that does not corrode. If I had know this when I was changing mine I would have bought them instead of the steel version. If you are rummaging around in front of the transom now would be the time to repair the rudder bearing shelf as well. The one in your pic looks as if it has some deterioration.

I am pretty much a newbie at this site myself, having joined only a few months ago. I was a sailor for over 25 years before I converted to power.. if I can live that down here you should have no problems at all! Everyone is really great here. Just watch out for a guy named Bruce!

Awww...Bruce is just a teaser. Walter

Just getting a dig in wherever I can Walter!

Well the Summer Winds was supposed to come home today but after an hour of trying to get her on the trailer my boat hauler/friend determined that the boat would not fit on his trailer due to the position of the transducers.... So we're going to try again tommorow am at 8:15 with another boat mover that has a fully hydraulic trailer.... I will keep everyone updated!
-John

John,

I had a very good run with Hynautic controls in the 1980s. We used the plastic lines - no problems really. The fluid we used was a water/glycol mix (i.e. anti-freeze) rather than a hydraulic fluid, so if you had a problem it would be hard to run out of fluid. I'd try fixing it if you can and I see you've been given some pretty good pointers on where to go.

Glad to see you are right in the thick of everything, those ol' transducers'll do it every time! That's boats!

Nic

These guys know their stuff!!! Prob going to have a go at getting the system I have working or rebuilt for the time being... Thanks for providing me with the info guys those sites sure have a lot of info on them!
-John

John, thanks for the private email today. You need a full array of the Corrosion X products to keep her up and get stuff back in shape. Shoot me your shipping address and I'll send you an assortment of the Magic In A Can products, gratis.

UV

Uncle Vic, glad to see you didn't have the young'un banished for his insolence. You'd make a good and benevolent ruler if you were just a little skinnier and had measuring marks on your side!

How's AJ coming or did you change the name to "Another Howdy"

haha

John,

When I bought the '76 BW 21' OR it was on a trailor, but the lack of bottom paint makes me think it was not kept in the water for long. When I took possesion, I put it in a friend's warehouse, stripped it of all hardware, removed the motor and console, and turned it bottoms up. As I was grinding out some blisters, one opened up all the way through the fiberglass about 1" X 2". I allowed it to air dry for a month, and used some heat lamps to assist. After drying completely, I filled with Capt. Patrick's recipe of thickened epoxy, and then barrier coated the entire bottom from the waterline down. A year later everything appears to remain solid. The foam in the Whalers does not seem to be as absorbant as that in the Bertram 20s. Mike's B-20 continued to drip water for over a year after he drilled an escape hole.

Tommy