bertram31.com

Are either version of Capt. Patrick's side induction air boxes available for purchase from anyone?

https://www.vetus.com/en/vetus-syntheti ... pe-30.html
I believe these are similar to one of them.
John
I am putting the vents in the cockpit.i made them from coosa scraps!

https://www.boatoutfitters.com/dorade-b ... gJN8fD_BwE

Jason,

That's a nice job with the Coosa scraps!

Thanks for the links.

JohnV8r

Jason,

You do nice work. How soon will you be able to start on my boat. You can live in Charleston, SC for the winter.

BTW, my boat has the outboard Capt. Patrick version of the induction air vents but I like yours better.

Thanks for both Jason. If I can fit a belly band in my budget, I think I’d like to go with floating side panels to give me a toe kick that is vented on the bottom using that same space to draw in the air. In case that’s not part of my budget those dorado boxes look like they’ll do the trick. I’ve been search for weeks for something premade, should have asked here first.

not for nothing the Dorade box was Captain Patrick signature on a 31 Bertram. he even made a detailed installation in his building tip section of the old 31 Bertram board. the cockpit version was made by me after experimenting with 20 -10" pieces of caution tape space all over boat from main bulkhead back. i found the best air turbulence to be in a line just behind engine boxes. i made the air intakes in the engine/fuel tank bulkhead in a giant "D" shape the same configuration as fighter jet air intake. i modified that idea in recent years to take air from the same area cover with grill but a direct 4" intake to turbo intake then wrapped in heat tape.a seat of the pants increase in power with cummins breathing ambient air rather then 190 degree air from the top of engine compartment.i used teak vents instead of coosa and the K&N air filter to the 4" pipe is directly in back of vent.

this is starboard side engine with forced fresh air intake to turbocharger.the intake goes under gunnel and has K&N air filter at the intake end.

I heard a comment about side induction boxes allowing water intrusion. If designed and installed correctly, that is not going to happen.
For those that pull the air directly from the cockpit above the deck, engine noise is going to be a factor and will erase time and money spent on engine box insulating.
IF no one is sitting in chairs in the cokpit while under way, no big deal.

Pats boxes are not available. But here is the link to install.

https://bertram31.com/parts/air_box/index.html

Thanks Bruce, noise levels are a big concern for my family

Thanks Bruce I was concerned about noise so I made mine removable in case it’s to loud then I will do something else. I saw Bob and JP and some others have them in the cockpit maybe they will chime in on this.

Those premade Vetus boxes aren’t big enough using the math of 1/2 square inch per HP. Anyone have a source for someone that makes them in the right size?

There is some ambient air under the floor and gunnels which would add to the overall air intake.

Bruce, thanks for posting the install instructions. I have a set of Capt. Patrick boxes but I don't believe they were installed correctly. I'll check them tomorrow.

BTW, it was good to meet you and I appreciate this forum greatly.

Pete I will post some more when I get a chance I have them saved I will have to look for them!

Snipe wrote: ↑Sep 19th, '21, 07:40 Thanks Bruce I was concerned about noise so I made mine removable in case it’s to loud then I will do something else. I saw Bob and JP and some others have them in the cockpit maybe they will chime in on this.

True if the passageway from motor compartment to cockpit louvers was open the sound of the motor would escape.

BUT if the intake was ducted like Bob Lico's...that ducting could be sent through a wall/bulkhead that was sound insulated with only the cold air allowed to pass through. So only cold fresh air with no motor sound escaping.

https://deltatsystems.com/product/custo ... iminators/
Pete I have used this company to custom make large scale moisture eliminators for commercial boats and they were great!! This is the way I was going to go and still might I just got bored one rainy day and made the ones I have now.

Carl wrote: ↑Sep 20th, '21, 06:01 True if the passageway from motor compartment to cockpit louvers was open the sound of the motor would escape.

BUT if the intake was ducted like Bob Lico's...that ducting could be sent through a wall/bulkhead that was sound insulated with only the cold air allowed to pass through. So only cold fresh air with no motor sound escaping.

When you say “ducted” do you mean there is a baffle box between the engine compartment and the louvered cover?

Snipe wrote: ↑Sep 20th, '21, 09:24 https://deltatsystems.com/product/custo ... iminators/
Pete I have used this company to custom make large scale moisture eliminators for commercial boats and they were great!! This is the way I was going to go and still might I just got bored one rainy day and made the ones I have now.

Do they have something off the shelf or does it have to be custom made? Looks like they make some serious stufff

Going to get in touch with these guys tomorrow.

https://www.murrayventilation.com/drain-options

PeterPalmieri wrote: ↑Sep 20th, '21, 12:03

When you say “ducted” do you mean there is a baffle box between the engine compartment and the louvered cover?

You see that foil lined piping (ducting) from the Turbo intake, it goes up over the motor and to the side of the boat...if that ducting penetrated a wall that was sound insulated, the cold air would still pass through the ductwork but the sound would stop at that wall.

Basically, seal in the engine compartment for sound with the intake air piped through a wall. The end of the piping and air filter can still be hidden behind a set of louvers. However, the area behind the louvers would not be open to the motor compartment so the sound stays isolated to motor compartment. Obviously, this only works if you run that fresh air intake line Bob has shown in his picture. Think of an off road Jeep that goes in deep water...the intake snorkel goes through the firewall/hood, fender or whatever up over the roof for dry air.

bob lico wrote: ↑Sep 18th, '21, 11:13

Maybe I’m missing something here, but won’t you hear the 1200CFM of air being ingested from this cockpit area? Bob L., do you hear that noise on your Pheonix? Then again it’s relatively drier air taken from cockpit, so the moisture eliminators make sense if taking air from Capt Pat’s design.

Carl wrote: ↑Sep 21st, '21, 07:11 You see that foil lined piping (ducting) from the Turbo intake, it goes up over the motor and to the side of the boat...if that ducting penetrated a wall that was sound insulated, the cold air would still pass through the ductwork but the sound would stop at that wall.

Basically, seal in the engine compartment for sound with the intake air piped through a wall. The end of the piping and air filter can still be hidden behind a set of louvers. However, the area behind the louvers would not be open to the motor compartment so the sound stays isolated to motor compartment. Obviously, this only works if you run that fresh air intake line Bob has shown in his picture. Think of an off road Jeep that goes in deep water...the intake snorkel goes through the firewall/hood, fender or whatever up over the roof for dry air.

I see that now, very fancy

Rocky wrote: ↑Sep 21st, '21, 08:24 Maybe I’m missing something here, but won’t you hear the 1200CFM of air being ingested from this cockpit area? Bob L., do you hear that noise on your Pheonix? Then again it’s relatively drier air taken from cockpit, so the moisture eliminators make sense if taking air from Capt Pat’s design.

I'd expect the noise of sucking air could be heard...then again it's behind baffles with a pair of diesels running.
Has to be less than an open passageway to motors "if" going that route.

using the auto analogy people put cold air intakes for a couple HP but also for the noise- there is an increase in noise which they find appealing. Gives "butt horsepower"

now if being baffled behind a vent silences or lessens that great but a good amount of noise does come from the filter itself
No different than my air compressor being plumbed to take outside air . It cut the noise down inside the shop by a ton but its kind of loud right there by the filter

Intake noise is agreed upon...the point I am trying to make is if you're going to run the intake to the cockpit side.

it can be an open direct run with the motor noise AND intake noise.

OR

Run the duct through a sound-insulating panel reducing the motor noise. One could also go larger with the last bit of ducting to slow the air entering, reducing the hissing sound "somewhat".

The idea of the air coming in from the cockpit side is it is cleaner, drier air that is also cooler than taking from under the motor cover.



Maybe a complete coincidence, but when I 1st put my boat in last year with new to me motors it was sweltering hot. One motor ran shy of the 2600 WOT...that was till between runs I opened the motor hatch and Wa-la I got those few extra rpm. I should have closed to verify...but I just ran in. After that temps cooled a bit and didn't notice a difference. Coincidence or those few degrees difference from having hatch open made me gain a few rpm. My motor box is far from sealed...so no lack of air. As Bob says, every little bit counts, its also cumulative free power, a little here and there adds up.

I spend approximately 15 hours a week looking at multi-probe engine monitors where I'm manipulating fuel and air mixtures and gauging the power, temps and engine health. Diesel marine engines are a little different than air cooled piston plane engines but the effects of air/fuel ratios are very interesting to me. Ninety percent of my flying time is running Lean of Peak with fuel being the limiting factor in the BHP. Air is free so I run Wide Open Throttle (WOT).

Crows Nest has 8.2 DDs at 300 hp per side. The engine boxes were extended about 11" per side for the motors/gears, so they go past the engine bulkhead by 11". That's what's left of the bulkhead from where it was cut out for the motors/gears. She has no air intake other than what she had as a stock gasser. She must pull all her extra air from under the deck, etc. through the aft of the engine boxes. There's no difference in the way she runs with the boxes open or closed, so I know that the she's getting enough air. Long story short--depending on how tight your deck/hatches/bulkheads/side panels are, and the hp of the diesels you're putting in, you may not need the extra air from side induction boxes.

Bob's air intake is pretty slick. I wouldn't want a straight vent to the engines without those runners--too much noise.

Ironworker wrote: ↑Sep 21st, '21, 14:43 I spend approximately 15 hours a week looking at multi-probe engine monitors where I'm manipulating fuel and air mixtures and gauging the power, temps and engine health. Diesel marine engines are a little different than air cooled piston plane engines but the effects of air/fuel ratios are very interesting to me. Ninety percent of my flying time is running Lean of Peak with fuel being the limiting factor in the BHP. Air is free so I run Wide Open Throttle (WOT).

LOL...I had no clue what you were talking about...but with a little search, it became very interesting.

I wonder if I wish I had that kind of engine/fuel control on the boat's motors. On one hand, it would be great to adjust on the fly (pun intended) while monitoring exhaust, head temps, fuel usage...On the other hand, it may just drive me over the edge. On the other other hand I'd love to see if I could drop the EGT's a bit with the mixture. As I don't have another other hand, I guess I'll just make due another way.


Maybe it is just my lil 210's, but the intake doesn't make all that much noise. I'd say the gas 440's with flame arrestor removed made more of a racket than the 210's with the air filter removed. I've played with that recently when hoping maybe the higher EGT had something to do with restricted airflow from the filter. So while running I monitored pyro and had bud pull off the filter. No difference detected...maybe a bit of a hiss...but negligible. Then again 210's less air needed

John,

Was just thinking through this, Murray Ventilation is going to draw up ones specifically for my 370s, I will share when he does but you could probably downsize them if you go with 210s or 250s.

Pete,

If they're aesthetically right for the hull, I'll get the one's you're getting.

Let me know what you find out.

Thanks,

JohnV8r

Carl wrote: ↑Sep 22nd, '21, 06:22 LOL...I had no clue what you were talking about...but with a little search, it became very interesting.

I wonder if I wish I had that kind of engine/fuel control on the boat's motors. On one hand, it would be great to adjust on the fly (pun intended) while monitoring exhaust, head temps, fuel usage...On the other hand, it may just drive me over the edge. On the other other hand I'd love to see if I could drop the EGT's a bit with the mixture. As I don't have another other hand, I guess I'll just make due another way.


Maybe it is just my lil 210's, but the intake doesn't make all that much noise. I'd say the gas 440's with flame arrestor removed made more of a racket than the 210's with the air filter removed. I've played with that recently when hoping maybe the higher EGT had something to do with restricted airflow from the filter. So while running I monitored pyro and had bud pull off the filter. No difference detected...maybe a bit of a hiss...but negligible. Then again 210's less air needed

Carl,

I've spent many many hours over the last number of years since the invention of multiprobe engine monitors studying the inner workings of airplane piston engines. I can say without hesitation that my engine monitor has saved my life several times being able to catch an impending disaster in a cylinder and be able to arrest the situation before it becomes a catastrophic engine failure, I don't worry about EGTs so much, I'm more focused on CHTs.

Its my love for the engine monitors that prompted me to go electronic with my new QSBs

Rick: I used to run lean of peak in my Beech Debonair. You had to be careful and I did not have fancy electronic gauges, but there definitely is a sweet spot there. Of course just past that sweet spot is a hole in a piston! LOL! Very few boaters have the attention span to run a boat motor that way . . Look a squirrell!

Rawleigh wrote: ↑Sep 22nd, '21, 17:22 Rick: I used to run lean of peak in my Beech Debonair. You had to be careful and I did not have fancy electronic gauges, but there definitely is a sweet spot there. Of course just past that sweet spot is a hole in a piston! LOL! Very few boaters have the attention span to run a boat motor that way . . Look a squirrell!

I'm currently flying two A36's. One Normally Aspirated and Turbonormalized. I have roughly 14,000 logged hours and likely another several thousand that I didn't bother logging. I estimate that I paid for my engine OH's just by flying LOP.

But we're way off topic and I apologize.

Air is free so our engines diesel or otherwise should get as much as we can give them. Let fuel be the limiting factor in the function of the engine. Limiting Air does bad things to engines, especially those with Fuel flows optimized for a certain airflow.

[youtube] https://youtu.be/MA3_jQqUjeQ[/youtube]

Ironworker wrote: ↑Sep 22nd, '21, 17:35
Air is free

I guess you don't dive much



...and PLEASE Don't tell the Government that as we'll soon have an air Tax.

Who knew someone can talk so long about air coming and going from a boat...however it all does make sense. Interesting product, but I wonder how much of their claims are true. It seems more than adequate for our boat and motors needs though.

Carl wrote: ↑Sep 23rd, '21, 06:13 Who knew someone can talk so long about air coming and going from a boat...however it all does make sense. Interesting product, but I wonder how much of their claims are true. It seems more than adequate for our boat and motors needs though.

The face draining vents with moisture eliminator is what I’m after. Over engineered, cut a hole, put it in place and your good. Move on to the next item on the list.

PeterPalmieri wrote: ↑Sep 23rd, '21, 06:28 cut a hole, put it in place and your good. Move on to the next item on the list.

You may want to secure them in place just before moving on...

I get what you mean though...no designing, no making, no fussing, no fitting and no modifying. Just receive the box, open, prep and paint if desired, cut hole, secure and you get to check that item off your To Do List. Very smart! That is definitely a way to eliminate a Project within a project and keep the timeline on track.

Carl wrote: ↑Sep 23rd, '21, 06:01 I guess you don't dive much



...and PLEASE Don't tell the Government that as we'll soon have an air Tax.

We already pay an air tax in the way of emission standards on fuel and increasing costs for internal combustion engines. Not to mention freons and all other costs associated with ozone layer depletion products. Along with the current carbon taxes being considered in the US along with upcoming legislation from the current admin.
If it can be taxed, the govt has already done it, whether directly or in directly, or considering it.

PeterPalmieri wrote: ↑Sep 23rd, '21, 05:09 [youtube] https://youtu.be/MA3_jQqUjeQ[/youtube]

This was a very interesting video. The moisture reduction feature in their products is pretty slick. I'm wondering if a small modification to Capt. Patrick's induction boxes would assist with moisture reduction?