Would you pass on a Prop tunneled B31

[titolugo]

As the tittle say. I have access to a cabrera project boat with pockets and 315 yanmars installed at a fair price. I will use it as a day boat in calm waters mostly. Would you pass on it?
Alberto.

[Tony Meola]

Alberto

I would take it out for a good run to see how she handles. Usually the tunnels make the boat difficult to handle backing down. Not sure if they will come up if you do a search but there have been discussions in the past on prop tunnels.

They have to be done right. I believe it causes the boat to run flatter eliminating some of the bow proud attitude the 31 is known for.

[Ironworker]

Pockets and Tunnel Drives.....I had a bud with a 24 Penyan with tunnel drive. I can't imagine a poorer performing boat. It was a testament to piss poor engineering.

As already stated make sure you perform a through sea trial.

[Carl]

Pockets and Tunnel Drives.....I had a bud with a 24 Penyan with tunnel drive. I can't imagine a poorer performing boat. It was a testament to piss poor engineering.

As already stated make sure you perform a through sea trial.

Lol- - I joked about those boats for years with that ridiculous jet boat like wash being thrown when trying to get on plane. I wondered why anyone would buy such a boat.

Then there I was standing in the cockpit of one looking at a brand new motor that had been installed by a friend and top notch mechanic. A boat that was being sold for a price that would not cover the cost of that motor for health reasons, a boat that had what I wanted...more open cockpit to fish, no rug and upholsrty to clean after fishing, more cabin space to leave my stuff after a day out. I also wanted a boat that could handle seas better than what I had...so while not found of that stupid tunnel I knew the hull was capable and I found myself with my handshaking accepting the offered deal.
Piss poor performance and giant roostertail is what I had. Talking with dads customer/ vender/ friend who had a large underwater running gear company ran my numbers, told me what performance I should be getting and soon had a desk full of wheels I should try. A man that would rewrite a several thousand dollar invoice if he forgot to add a .02 screw was helping me load 13 wheels in my car telling me to try them all till one works.
Luckily on a PennYan you just have to go under to mount the wheel puller and the rest can be done reaching under. Wheel after wheel I'd put on, then go out for a ride. Wheel after wheel I shot out a large roostertail and peg the tach hitting a whooping 15,16 or 17mph, cruising at 13,14. Some wheels sounded like a tin of marbles hardly getting me on plane.
Then came the OJ Johnson wheel. Took out stupid roostertail, bow came up, more throttle the bow came down at 15mph and lots more throttle to go...17,20,25 and by the time the throttle was pegged I was doing 30mph. Backed her off to where I wanted to cruise based on rpm, not speed I was doing 23 mph at 3300rpm. I tried the rest and none came close to that performance. I returned the balance of the wheels, was "given" that wheel from a man that gives nothing away and bought a spare. I think it was a little 11-13 wheel with tons of rake and cup that came in at almost twice the price of any other wheel.
But cruise at 14 or 23 mph? Others with the same boat found me and asked how I got such performance after seeing me skoot by them. I'd tell the the wheel they needed, even offered to let them try my spare...only one took me up on it. The rest didn't want the price of hauling boat or want responsibility of ruining my wheel and having to buy.

So to answer your question about a 31 with prop pockets. First a prop pocket is a small indentation in hull where the PennYan Tunnel drive has 90% of the wheel in the tunnel, two very different animals. Pockets do hamper backing down and turning, but the word is hamper.
As said, do a sea trial and judge for yourself. It's also a BIG MAJOR hull modification, make sure a good surveyour checks the work out throughly. Those would be some huge holes if they failed. But if done right...it a plastic boat, glued back together correctly, it's a good as new. Better in some cases.
If boat fit my needs and budget, pockets would not have me walk away. I can't think of a reason I'd ever go through the trouble or expense of installiiing myself...but if already done and not adding to cost of boat I'd buy.

Good luck

[scenarioL113]

Is it SHOOTER?

Look up seaboard marine restoration of SHOOTER
She gets a some insane performance numbers. Prob similar numbers to Bobs Phoenix. I am NOT saying the boats are SIMILAR, just the numbers...

https://www.sbmar.com/repower-projects/ ... m-repower/

[Carl]

She gets a some insane performance numbers. Prob similar numbers to Bobs Phoenix. I am NOT saying the boats are SIMILAR, just the numbers...

The same speed except when you look at the hp of each. Jimmy G has those numbers too and no pockets...but again look at the hp motors he installed.
More hp also means more burn, less range more cash outlay...then again Bobs outlay is ALL Encompassing. A ton of percentage increases from a ton of projects tied together.

[titolugo]

Well,
The boat right now is a project boat and can’t sea trial it. It was one of the first done at Cabrera’s facilities and spent a lot of time fishing in the Caribbean. I just sold my 43’ Bertram and bought a 630 and would love to have the 31 as the little Bertram. I really like that it has all the Cabrera’s cockpit floors and engine box packages with some Yanmars included for almost the same price to buying a bare hull. I have talked to a friend of mine that used to own one with the tunnels and a pair of the yanmars 315 LY and he told me that he only saw cavitation when going upwind in extreme sea conditions doing 12-14 knots. He had to back down to let the air bubble out of the pockets. I have a 33’ Phoenix with pockets and used to have a 29’ Phoenix with pockets as well and never experienced those situations. My friend never played with different propellers. I am inclined to buying it and do some testing. Worst case scenario, I can always return it to it’s original shape or sell it. The alternative would be getting a bare hull for almost the same price and redo it completely but it would be a lot more expensive since it doesn’t have any running gear nor engines.

[titolugo]

I forgot to mention, I am used to doing modifications and testing. My 43’ was done completely and I was able to make it a37 knot boat and was on plane at 11.5 knots. On the other hand, if I buy it I’ll take all the weight transfer recommendations and test different props to see what happens. If anyone have direct experience in setting a B31 with the Cabrera prop tunnels please let me know. I believe that the prop tunnels used by Tony in California where custom made by him and not the Cabrera’s.

[scenarioL113]

I believe the point of the pockets is to keep the drive line to the end of the prop as straight as possible. If you search and look at some other boats like Bobs Phoenix (on this board) he accomplished a similar end result by lowering his engines as low as they could go to the hull.
I do not know off the top of my head what the end shaft angle is for either Shooter or Phoenix but that in both boat lowering the shaft angle gives a better end performance result by directing the HP and propulsion in the opposite direction of the travel of the vessel.
Sorry, I dont know all the fancy words to describe it but that is the "jist" of it.

Yes, Shooter has bigger HP engines but I think at cruise RPM both the 370 cummins and the 440 Yanmars are in the same ballpark on fuel consumption numbers. I could be wrong. At Rated RPM the Yanmar gets 23GPH and the Cummins gets 20GPH but the curves are very different as the RPM comes down and I think they get pretty close to each other.

What is the point....I dont know... LOL

At the end of the day the "Tunnels" if installed have to be done correctly and that means engineered properly bc it is a lot more than just glassing in tunnels. Cavitation and other variable have to be considered and prop clearance etc...

If you are thinking about it I would reach out to Tony Athens or somebody of that caliber and ask their opinion. I just mentioned Shooter because I knew it was a 31 Bertram and it was done by someone who I know that "knows his sh!t.
I would also reach out to Lico and others that have lowered their engines to the MAX and pick their brains as well.

[Snipe]

I have lowered my engines as low as they could go and move them aft about 4 inches. Also I have modified the shaft angle achieving 11.9 deg stock was 15.2 deg I haven’t made the water yet but I have read a lot of Bob lico’s posts and have seen that the shallower shaft angle and shifting the weight aft yielded great results. I have seen some tunneled 31’s but don’t know the results. Good luck with your project!

[Carl]

Bob is not running 370's...that is what is remarkable with his performance.


Asking Tony his opinion is great, but from my knowledge he did not run his boat with those motors without pockets to know the performance difference. Boy that was a mouthful. Even with Bobs boat I'd love to see how the boat would run with shafts at standard angle to compare. For that matter, I'd like to see how mine ran with shafts at 15° compared to the 11°I wound up with. Maybe for me more down angle would be beneficial in lifting the stern some and achieve more speed. I think my long drawn out point is to compare one needs to have a control to compare too, then make a change, test and compare.

My understanding is higher hp motors need to run larger wheels if they expect to handle around docks and no wake zones. Small wheels would need too much pitch to go slow. Big wheels is more shaft angle and a motor can only go so low till you need pockets.

[scenarioL113]

I thought Bob was running the 370s, Obviously not tho so I guess he is running 330's bc I know he is NOT running 300s (CPL970). SNIPE will be running 370s and will be a comparison (vs the Yanmars in Shooter anyway).
Maybe SNIPE will be a 42knot with the extra ponies...(Kind of Like Bobs Corvette, it can do over 160 BUT do you want to???

All the angle stuff and weight distribution is beyond my engineering repertoire (yes I had to google it to ck the spelling). I dont know about your boat Carl and dont want to get yelled at if I say Tabs may help...

Back to the pockets, I dont think there is enough data to really get good data on what is best (Pockets vs No Pockets). Just gotta ask guys what they got and how it performs and then decide what way is best for you

[Carl]

I have tabs and plan to keep them as they do help running at the speeds I run.

That said, on one hand I get better performance with tabs, BUT the other hand says tabs are brakes that push the rump up, bow down to gain speed.

I wonder if more shaft down angle could be advantageous at lower speeds...than again shooting water downwards is lost energy.

[Yannis]

Guys,

I introduced my mechanic to my buddy with the Albemarle 31.
This boat has a significantly bow proud attitude and with the 375 Yanmars is a slightly faster boat than mine, I believe its cruising speed is 25-26 knots whereas mine is 23-24.

Anyway, my mechanic said that a permanent kind of flap, one that would stretch all the way between the boat's existing moving flaps, attached to the transom and extending 20-25 cm behind the boat (thus extending the water line while blocking/reducing the "rooster" effect from the propellers) would significantly reduce the boat angle and improve fuel consumption. He said that the shaft angle in these Albemarles is very deep.

[Rawleigh]

Yannis: On the old time Chesapeake Bay wooden deadrise work boats they were known as "settling boards". They kept the stern from settling or squatting under power..

[Ironworker]

I'm pretty sure the EarleyBird is running 270's.

[Yannis]

Rawleigh,

I hardly can make sense in simple english, now if I’m to learn Chesapeake naval terms, I need one more life.
Thanks, though!

[scenarioL113]

I'm pretty sure the EarleyBird is running 270's.

YES, you are correct. I meant SNIPE

[titolugo]

Good evening,
I was able to track down two prior owners of 31 Bertrams with Cabrera tunnels installed. One of them had the boat until only two month ago. He told me that he was hesitant to buy the boat at first because of the tunnels but after using the boat he really liked the way the boat behaved. He said that it didn’t have nor needed trim tabs, it had a higher bow attitude and was dryer than his friends B31’s. He told me that he had taken extremely bad weathers and didn’t had any type of cavitation problems. He kept some spare props that He offered to test if I buy the project.
The other prior owner sold it over 10 years ago and told basically that the boat behaved well except going upwind at high speeds in waves of 3-4 feet, the boat lost grip. He told me that cavitated, but I asume that basically the boat went airborn. He didn’t played with different props. I could probably track down the current owner since I know were the boat is.
After talking to the recent owner I don’t believe that I should pass on the boat. Let’s see, I’ll keep you posted if I end up buying the boat with it’s progress.

[Tony Meola]

Tito

Good Luck if you decide to pull the trigger.

[Tony Meola]

Rawleigh,

I hardly can make sense in simple english, now if I’m to learn Chesapeake naval terms, I need one more life.
Thanks, though!

Now that is funny.

[Hueso]

Tito:

Saludos. David from High School. Call me at seven eight seven eight one cero six two two cero.

David

[Rawleigh]

Yannis: Your English is really good. You ought to hear my Greek (not)!!

[Yannis]

Rawleigh, Tony,
thanks, BUT:

whenever they tell you that you speak a language very well, OR, that you don't look your age, it's always a lie!!

(for example, they never told YOU that you speak very good English, and nobody bothers to compliment your 20 y.o. daughter that she looks like 18...)

The minute one starts complimenting someone about these two topics (age and language proficiency), that's the minute they start lying. A socially accepted lie alright, but a lie nevertheless!
Most people thereby complimented feel their ego boosted and everyone lives happily ever after...

[Carl]

A gent that works here with me for over 10 years...he still speaks horrible English and forget about him trying to write it. But I will say his English is much better than my Spanish. Anyway, aside from a few phases every now and then I forget your in a different Country more often then not.

Hows that? Better than "you speak good English" on the lie scale.

[PeterPalmieri]

Now I’m totally lost is “cero”, zero in Spanish or a Chesapeake naval term. I thought they were those sugary things you get at a carvinal.

[Yannis]

Ha, ha....

I gather that there are TWO prerequisites for someone to learn a foreign language:

First, how much they NEED to. For example, the average american does not need to learn a foreign language as almost everything around him revolves in english. Same for the British. Same for the Spaniards, as half the world speaks Spanish.
The average Greek, and every other average native of a small country has no option. Either he learns a popular language or he has to raise cattle or goats.

Second, is the persons ABILITY to grasp languages, to have the “ear”.
My ex as well as my brother both earned their Masters degrees in an english speaking environment. Today they both claim that they have forgotten half of what they learned and they even tell you they are much happier in the company of people who speak greek and avoid intl groups as they are forced to speak english which becomes all the more difficult to them.
Others, are fluent in half a dozen languages without a real struggle..it just occurs to them almost naturally.
I know people like that and I envy them!!

I lived in the states and in france so Im fluent in these two, plus, french made me learn italian in one year.
I also lived in romania, there was a period I could speak some, not any more.
Oh, people tell me my greek is ...very good, lol!

[Tony Meola]

Yannis

Not to worry about your 20 year old daughter.

Most of us on this board are more interested in complementing your 40 year old daughter (if you have one) that looks like she is 25.

[Rocky]

Yannis

Not to worry about your 20 year old daughter.

Most of us on this board are more interested in complementing your 40 year old daughter (if you have one) that looks like she is 25.

Now that's funny Tony.
I'm myself happy to report I don't fit that bill yet!

[John F.]

Now I’m totally lost is “cero”, zero in Spanish or a Chesapeake naval term. I thought they were those sugary things you get at a carvinal.

I thought cero were mackerel.

Patnovic at Whorton Creek did a B31 with prop tunnels, big Yanmars, and a full tower. It was supposed to be pretty fast. I saw the boat at Whorton Creek and a few times around Kent Island, and remember seeing it (or maybe another one) years ago when they were f'glassing in the prop tunnels. I have no idea how it ran. Best of luck

[Rocky]

I drove down to the SeaBoard Marine area and met Tony Athens. Very knowledgable guy and extremely nice, he welcomed me to walk around his shop and gave me a grant tour of his projects. "Shooter" was a customers 31 in which Tony was hesitant to put those tunnels into,I remember he told me "but the customer is always right", so in they went. If you read the story about Shooter he even writes about that.
He did not say or talk too much about performance when done. I imagine with that kind of HP and torque, your gonna get something! They had to work on getting the top speed they had on paper. Would you turn down a 31 with that being the only questionable modification? Sea trial, Sea trial, Sea trial!
Then you make that decision.

[Bruce]

I've done one 31 with pockets. They were nothing like Penn Yann tunnels.

The last one was when Cummins came out with common rail QSB. I got the the first pair out of Cummins SE they were 370. Needed the pockets to turn the prop size. Boat performed excellent. I've posted pics of it in the past.