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I hate water in the bilge, and my 28 has the main pump mounted against the forward engine compartment bulkhead on a block, so there is always about four inches of water left in the bilge. I want to mount a small auto pump at the lowest point of the hull to get as much water out as possible, and leave the main pump to deal with any more serious issues. My question is about the Rule auto sensing pumps, the ones that turn on every 2 1/2 minutes and run as long as there is resistance to the impeller turning. The online reviews are divided into 2 camps: half say they are the best things since canned beer, and the other half say they are the worst junk ever created. Anybody have any experience with these things?

Tooeez,

Is there a hole of any sort that connects your bilge between the engines to the bilge which is inside the main cabin (through the lowest point at the engine/main cabin bulkhead)?
The reason I'm asking is that the lowest point in the 28, IS in the bilge area by the V-BERTH CABIN bulkhead.
If the two are connected, then the water will accumulate in front of the galley and it is there that you would want to get it out from.
If they are not connected, then you need a pump between the engines and another one under the sole in front of the galley.
As for the type of pump you mention I don't know much; my 2 Rule pumps under the deck though, with floaters, seem to be good into getting almost all water out.
In the galley area, the lowest point that is, I have a pump without a float that I activate manually from the switchboard whenever there is any water in the cabin.
I keep the connecting hole between engine bilge and cabin always shut, except when I wash the boat inside just before splash time, however, I winter store the boat at a significant angle towards the aft so that water cannot accumulate inside.


This is a pic from the bilge outside the bathroom, you can see the hole connecting the in side and outside at its lowest point.
I also removed a part of the keel bump on both sides so that the engine pump can sit low and the connecting hole be also at the lowest point
The orange pump you're seeing here is my fresh water pump, nothing to do with bilge waste.

Tooeez wrote:The online reviews are divided into 2 camps: half say they are the best things since canned beer, and the other half say they are the worst junk ever created. Anybody have any experience with these things?

Like I said on the other thread regarding bilge pumps, these pumps do work as advertised... The thing is that because they do run every 150 seconds there IS an issue regarding power consumption... You really need either a shore power fed battery charger/maintainer or some beefy battery banks to run them if you don't run the boat at least once every 1-2 weeks...

They don't consume much power with these frequent test runs but they ARE frequent so it does add up...

I have the same exact issue with my 28 and I also hate the water in the bilge. I actually did the same thing you are talking about.


My boat sits on a custom made trailer most of the time so all the water runs to the back. My main pumps sit on a block as well as far back as possible. I added a cheap rule auto 500 as low as possible. It gets about 1 of the 4 inches of water out.... So basically the best case for me is about 3 inches all the way in the back and about an inch between the engines..... I can't think of way to get more out.

Ryan,

Make a hole (there is a word for it) aft that seals off with a screw plug. Keep it open. This way when the boat is on the hard all the water flows out from the back by itself. Then, when you put the boat in the water the lowest point changes and becomes as I explain in my post above. Easy. I wonder why all boats dont have a plug like this.

Yannis, my main bulkhead is sealed, so I basically have two watertight bilge areas. The aft area collects the water; the forward bilge usually has nothing but dust. Thank you for the picture; I was wondering what to do about the "keel bump", not sure if it has any structural function. It looks to me like there is no problem removing a portion of it.

Ryan, I put a garboard drain plug in the center of my transom at the lowest point of the vee. When on the hard all the water on the port side of the keelson bump drains out. I got a piece of felt about 1/2 inch wide and 30 inches or so long, laid about 12 inches of it in the water on the starboard side of the keelson, ran the rest over the keelson and out the drain plug so it was hanging down on the outside of the transom about a foot. When the felt gets wet the capillary action draws all the water from the starboard side of the keelson.

Remember one thing, the automatic pumps do not pump if you have any hint of oil in the bilge. So if it is not clean, you will have an issue. Now, we all should have clean bilges so I am not advocating that you should pollute the water.

Tony Meola wrote:Remember one thing, the automatic pumps do not pump if you have any hint of oil in the bilge. So if it is not clean, you will have an issue. Now, we all should have clean bilges so I am not advocating that you should pollute the water.

I would have to respectfully disagree with this. If you could have seen what this little 500 was pumping out while I was cleaning the bilge last week....... scary!!!!!!!!

I went and got about 20 feet of cheap black bilge hose and pump it in to 55 gallon drums. So didn't pollute the earth or the neighbors pool....

Make a hole (there is a word for it) -- it's 'limber hole'.

In the maritime world there is a specific word for everything on a ship and a lot of the words date back centuries.

Amberjack wrote:Make a hole (there is a word for it) -- it's 'limber hole'.

As long as there's pumping capacity in the forward section there's no real reason for the hull not to be subdivided into separate watertight compartments... In fact, some (the vast majority) of vessels are required to have them...

Amberjack wrote:In the maritime world there is a specific word for everything on a ship and a lot of the words date back centuries.

Absolutely... And the etymology of these words is sometimes VERY interesting...

Toosez

I just came across this on another site for what it is worth. Not sure they are all this way but this is one persons issue with the Rule Auto pump.

"Had one in my Triumph 23 CC. While I did not have oily water in the bilge, I did have a grey "sludge" from mold/mildew due to the boat being rotomolded plastic. As I understand it, Rule pumps have a auto-sensing "technology" that will not pass oily water for conformance with the federal Clean Water Act. If it encounters oily water, the pump runs, but doesn't pump water.

On several occassions, I had to haul-out my boat, drain the bilge thur the drain plug (in my yard). Testing, I filled the bilge above the pump with plain water, bilge pump ran fine. Put her back in, after two weeks, battery 1 (hooked up to pump) dead. Look in bilge, my grey water is present. Haul out again, drain bilge, test again with fresh water, pump works fine. After 3rd time, did the fresh water test, pump runs fine, then poured 1/4 bottle of motor oil in. Pump running, but not pumping water. Clean everything out with degreaser agent, fill bilge with fresh water, run pump, pump works fine. Ripped out the pump, brought it back to Utsches as Rule servicing dealer. Counter person tells me, yeah Rule automatic pumps won't pump oily water. Look on packaging of brand new Rule auto-pump hanging on the wall, there it is with a green flag, the Clean Water Act statement compliance.

Replaced with auto Gott pump, never had a problem again. Replaced the Rule auto-pump in my Triumph 17CC with a 1100 Atwood Sahara auto pump, never had a problem in that boat.

Its only the self contained float/auto pump (square in shape) Rule pumps that have this feature. The round/cynlinder Rule auto pumps do not have this feature. Go firgure?? "

Tony is correct in his statement. The pump will not come on if one has a pure oil spill as the pump senses the conductivity of water.
But if you have an oily bilge mixed with water, it will pump.

So, just add water, and stir, right?

Bruce wrote:Tony is correct in his statement. The pump will not come on if one has a pure oil spill as the pump senses the conductivity of water.

The pump will come on for it's regular "test" but it won't continue pumping... IOW, it will do it's 20 seconds or so run and stop...

Nav, in 20 seconds I drain my own boat, plus my neighbors on both sides.

Yannis wrote:Nav, in 20 seconds I drain my own boat, plus my neighbors on both sides.

If the pollution rules in Greece are anything like they are in Cyprus even a drop of oil can get you in a LOT of trouble!... The result is amazing though... You can stand on the quay in the commercial port and clearly see the bottom at about 12 meters (roughly 36')...

This is my point !

What's the purpose of a pump which detects oil and stops after 20 seconds, when, in those 20 seconds the crime has already been committed!
As for the 12 meters of transparent water, Athens is a 4 million inh. city and people safely swim at its seafront.

Yannis wrote:What's the purpose of a pump which detects oil and stops after 20 seconds, when, in those 20 seconds the crime has already been committed!

This "feature" isn't really a "feature"... It wasn't designed to keep oil out of the water... It's just a side effect of the technology... And it's not advertised as a "feature"... The way to keep oil out of the water is to keep oil out of the bilge!...

Unfortunately the systems that one would find on oceangoing ships (centrifugal water separators) are not available in the size/price that make them an option for smaller vessels like ours...

Do these pumps have a "manual on" switching capability like if you were using the Rule-a-Matic float switch, or do they only operate in automatic mode?

Tooeez wrote:. The online reviews are divided into 2 camps: half say they are the best things since canned beer, and the other half say they are the worst junk ever created.

Honestly this seems to be the opinion of almost ever bilge pump I look at. I like the idea of the Johnson cartridge pumps but the reviews seem mixed on those as well. Todd

JohnV8r wrote:Do these pumps have a "manual on" switching capability like if you were using the Rule-a-Matic float switch, or do they only operate in automatic mode?

Mine (Rule) do... Standard 3 wire setup...

Tooeez et al,
No matter which way you go every 28 and 31 Bertram should be equipped with at least 3 (Three) 2000 or larger pumps and auto switches for each pump. I prefer Johnson pumps and Ultima auto switches and a light on the helm area so you can see when the pump activates. Also a high water alarm with a loud bell on the pump that usually has the most water around it, on the 28 and 31's it will be the forward bilge pump while the vessel is at rest. As a marine surveyor I find that people have no clue how little water a 500 gpm pump actually discharges, especially when the discharge outlet is 3 or more feet above the pump. I have seen 31's that have auto switches that did not work because they were so coated with oil and dirt that they wouldn't lift up when completely submerged in bilge water. Also the Rule auto switches are the least reliable in the marine industry, the wire gauge is very small and it is easily broken. So make sure that you keep all pumps in good working order and inspect them often. A $200.00 pump and switch is a very small amount compared to a sunk boat that can be worth $200,000 to replace. The new 35 Bertram has a list price of $750,000 with all the bells and whistles. So in closing the largest pump that your wiring will handle is the best insurance against sinking.
Pete Fallon

Tony Meola wrote:
Its only the self contained float/auto pump (square in shape) Rule pumps that have this feature. The round/cynlinder Rule auto pumps do not have this feature. Go firgure?? "

''

that explains it. The auto 500 is one of the little round ones.

Thanks, everyone, for all the input. I will put a Rule 500 automatic (the round one) as a sump in the engine compartment, with a 2000 Rule next to it as the main engine space pump, to replace the single 800 Rule the boat came with. The forward compartment has a 2000, and I will keep the 800 aft pump to remove water underway. When I get it done I will let you know how the sump does at keeping the bilge water to a minimum.

Tooeez,
If you put two pumps, why not consider as the second one the "diaphragm" type with a metal strainer at the lowest point, that will almost dry your bilge. The 2000gph one with a float can be set to auto anyway, and will take care of the bulk even at your absence.