bertram31.com

Hope y'a'll are getting ready for the pre-summer boat prep-spring is here today!


Does anyone on the board have the Crusader 8.1 Captain's Choice MPI 385hp (496ci) (also came in 425hp). Any information on them would be helpful such as ~cost to repower with them, value, performance numbers. What would a lightly used pair of these be worth with nice transmissions? (I know with these larger running gear is needed) I would have to imagine that these are worth significantly more than a pair of the older carb style 454s? What life expectancy should one have with these types of engines?

Thanks,

D.J.

This is why I asked:

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1976/Be ... Nlkj28rJhE

PM Scott Traenkle (sp?). I'm pretty sure that he has 8.1/496 in his B31. I've heard nothing but good about the Crusader 496s. Good luck.

For 38k I'd be considering a complete, done, running 31 with Diesels. Charlie has a nice Bahia Mar...

I have to agree with Carl.

Not sure what Charlie has done to her besides repower, but if interested PM him.

The boat looks nice, but, 8 liters, almost 800 horses running with gas?
I'll have to ask if you have vested interests in... the Saudi Arabian kingdom!

Yannis wrote:The boat looks nice, but, 8 liters, almost 800 horses running with gas?
I'll have to ask if you have vested interests in... the Saudi Arabian kingdom!

I am pretty sure my old gas 440's are considerably more thirsty then the new tech, 8 liters and they have alot more push.

Not saying pushing throttle open more won't burn more...but you'll also get there considerably faster. Then there is the fact the motors are just loping along at cruise where other gas engines are pushing, more torque to turn a larger more efficient prop, a bit more speed has less wetted surface, more efficient.

Diesel has one big upside, boat value. New gas motors in a boat, once they are used, they get lumped into a Gas Boat designation, whether 350's, 440's, 454 or 496's.

Carl,

You're simply lucky that fuel cost is low in the US.
Otherwise diesels have more than the upside you mentioned.
If you can overcome the initial cost, then everything else is upside.
By the way, I know of zero boat over 28-30 feet in the Med that runs with gas motors. Or it has junk resale value.
Or outboards !! But the new 4 stroke outboards are more economical to run and usually the boats are lighter. Anyway, center consoles there are very few too; mostly big big inflatables.

Fuel price is low in comparison.
It seems pretty pricey to me when I pull up to the pump.
Almost funny as I hope the guy loses track as pump only goes to $99.99 before turning over...and it turns over and over and over.


Anyway, that boat value statement is in light of less fuel consumption, more range and safer with diesel.

Remember, with gas you help feed the State Road Tax. With Diesel that tax is gone.

If we would stop sending our diesel fuel to guys like Yannis over in Europe, the cost of our diesel would go lower.

Ha, we buy from worse !! Lol !!

Tony Meola wrote:Remember, with gas you help feed the State Road Tax. With Diesel that tax is gone.

Actually, AFAIK there's road tax on both gas and diesel... You can buy gas/diesel that's not for road use and it doesn't carry the road tax... In fact, I'd be surprised if the marine fuel stations pay the road tax... I suspect they just don't adjust the price to show the savings...

Ahhhh diesel... The worlds fuel... vs. gas.

Dan,
Is that Paul Haggett's 31 that has the Crusader 8.1 L V-8's for sale . Those motors will last you for ever as long as you keep the oil clean and watch the exhaust and manifold gaskets. If I can remember correctly they were FWC with Stainless steel risers and manifolds. Paul had another surveyor from the North Shore survey the boat and he missed the major crack in the entire bottom where the 2 hull pieces join together also up the transom. I looked at it quickly about 44 years ago and it looked like someone dropped that boat causing the hull split and crack up the transom problem.
I would buy those motors in a heartbeat for the right price, your going to have to change your struts, shafts and props for those 8.1L . I looked into the 8.1 L Crusaders before I repowered with the Mercruiser 7.4L big blocks back in the mid 90's. They were having cooling issues with the MPI fuel injection boiling the gasoline before it got to each cylinder. Also I didn't want to change out all the running gear on my boat. I would look around for a set of 240 Yanmars or 270 Cummin, I feel that the 8.1L motors are too much for a 31. I had my 454's detuned to 310 hp and still did 41.8 on the GPS and she was starting to chine walk at WOT. Call me at 561 -310-7179 I am still in Mass with a bad knee problem.
Pete Fallon

Navatech wrote: Actually, AFAIK there's road tax on both gas and diesel... You can buy gas/diesel that's not for road use and it doesn't carry the road tax... In fact, I'd be surprised if the marine fuel stations pay the road tax... I suspect they just don't adjust the price to show the savings...

Nav

I know that when I buy diesel at the Marina there is no road tax since it is actually the same as farm fuel. Now here in NJ I pay more because I am buying it at a Marina. If I could get the 31 to gas station on the road with diesel, I could buy it at least 50 cents cheaper.

Way back when, a section of the State Marina in Forked River had an Exxon Station on its property on the main road. The back of the Station was on the river and he had fuel pumps back there for boats. The price was the same as the street price for cars. You could buy fuel back then way cheaper than in a marina. Unfortunately he is now long gone and the State put office space up there.

Tony Meola wrote:I know that when I buy diesel at the Marina there is no road tax since it is actually the same as farm fuel. Now here in NJ I pay more because I am buying it at a Marina.

It's not only in NJ that you pay more for "marine" fuel... "Marine" fuel being fuel you buy at the dock...

Tony Meola wrote:If I could get the 31 to gas station on the road with diesel, I could buy it at least 50 cents cheaper.

It's not feasible for my Bertram (it takes 720 gallon from empty to full) but couldn't you get the the gas station fuel to your 31?!... I'm thinking maybe a big tank in the back of your truck?!... I know people in Ft. Lauderdale that have the boat behind the house get a tanker to drive up to their house... The driver then uses a long hose through the garden to fuel their boats... Significantly cheaper then the fuel dock...

Marina's have the insurance to deal with that adds to fuel cost. Up here its a short season, so it's make it now or your helixed.

Also being somewhat of a captive market many can charge what they want...


Fuel delivery can be called in to Fuel delivery services...the ones that fuel up construction equipment do not have road tax added. Just needs to be enough to make it worth their effort.

Bringing down your own fuel...many marinas used to look the other way. But potential for a spill with clean up costs has many enforcing the NO Fueling boats in marina policies. I think that is pretty standard in the contracts as Insurance companies don't want to pay out on that stuff as it is over the top expensive to clean a spill, if reported.

Carl wrote:Marina's have the insurance to deal with that adds to fuel cost. Up here its a short season, so it's make it now or your helixed.

Also being somewhat of a captive market many can charge what they want...

I may possibly have given the impression that I thought the fuel dock operators were price gouging but I don't see them drying Lambo's or even Lexus'... I'm guessing that it's a combination of higher expenses and smaller volume plus the "captive" market thing...

Carl wrote:Fuel delivery can be called in to Fuel delivery services...the ones that fuel up construction equipment do not have road tax added. Just needs to be enough to make it worth their effort.

I believe that down here in FL some of the fuel truck people will do as little as 100 gallon as their minimum delivery quantity... I don't know of a single marina that allows them access though... Works only for people with private docks...

Carl wrote:Bringing down your own fuel...many marinas used to look the other way. But potential for a spill with clean up costs has many enforcing the NO Fueling boats in marina policies. I think that is pretty standard in the contracts as Insurance companies don't want to pay out on that stuff as it is over the top expensive to clean a spill, if reported.

I'm not sure that's the reasoning... I think it's the fact that in most cases (at least down here) most fuel docks are owned and operated by marinas... Stick around any fuel dock down here and you'll see several micro fuel spills a day...

Nav

If you are in a Marina, you can not have fuel delivered or put it in yourself unless you are pumping it from the Marina's pumps.

Since I keep the boat at a private dock, I could get a bulk fuel load. I need to order 100 gallons minimum. Easy to do if I am running offshore. If I am just bottom fishing and doing the local Howdy boating, I tend to keep the tank between 1/4 and half full so she sits higher in the water when not in use. Then I don't need to raise the water line.

She gets filled up at year end as she is pulled for her winters nap, and if I plan on any long distance cruising. I had a distributor that was willing to send his truck out to the private dock and then a couple of us could buy fuel with one stop shopping, but unfortunately the person who was going to go into this with me just passed away suddenly.

Everyone else I know that are nearby and could take advantage of this option use gas not diesel, so, take a 100 I am fine. Take less I pay more.

Such is life and boating.

Navatech wrote:
I believe that down here in FL some of the fuel truck people will do as little as 100 gallon as their minimum delivery quantity... I don't know of a single marina that allows them access though... Works only for people with private docks...

I know of a couple marina's where its a good few mile ride to fuel up. I know many of the patrons would leave if they HAD to take that ride for fuel every time they needed it...they'd blow their boating budget just going there and back in some of the older gas guzzling boats. So while Marina has a no dockside fueling clause in the contract and it is enforced if they should see it happening...I think the patrons have figured out the staffs schedule.

Carl wrote:Bringing down your own fuel...many marinas used to look the other way. But potential for a spill with clean up costs has many enforcing the NO Fueling boats in marina policies. I think that is pretty standard in the contracts as Insurance companies don't want to pay out on that stuff as it is over the top expensive to clean a spill, if reported.

I'm not sure that's the reasoning... I think it's the fact that in most cases (at least down here) most fuel docks are owned and operated by marinas... Stick around any fuel dock down here and you'll see several micro fuel spills a day...[/quote]

Marina's with fuel docks, your right, they have always enforced that. Some used to offer their clients a nickel or dime off pump price too. I think we have 12 or 13 recreational marinas going around the Island; fuel can only be found at two fuel docks, both located in the same harbor. So for the rest it's a trek over to Jersey or Brooklyn to fuel up...for some only a mile or so, others then have a ways to go.