Question for the cnc machinists or shop owners

[Bruce]

I have an opportunity to invest in a small manufacturing business that is growing. Its becoming apparent that skilled cnc programmers, repair techs, troubleshooting techs are somewhat scarce, at least decent ones.
If I do I want to immerse myself into cnc machine training. Manufacturers have their own schools, some regions have tech schools, which is better for general but in depth training?

Thanks

[Harry Babb]

Bruce

Reading your post, I am thinking that you want to learn to setup, program and produce 1st article parts using CNC machines.

My thoughts on your question come in from many different angles.

To be "Good" you first have to have a God given talent for being creative and mechanically thinking. Way before you ever even start "Programming" the machine itself......the "Machinist" must call on common sense and experience to "See all the way thru" the part and the machining process.

First there is clamping (and predicting interference) and fixturing and considering the affects and forces induced into the part......chip control, coolant......etc

Then there is tooling selection.....correct insert grades, geometry, chipbreakers, tool length, chatter.....etc

Once you get past all of these things......now its time to get behind the Computer and start programming. In my opinion the act of programming is the least important part of the process as well as the easiest.

So to really answer your question........I would take advantage of any classes offered by the Machine Tool Distributors to develop "Programming Skills". The truth is that all of the CNC machines work nearly the same. G-Codes move the machine around......and M-Codes perform supporting functions like....turnning on the spindle, turning on the coolant, changing tools etc.....there are only slight differences from one type of control to the other.

Trade schools (or the school of Hard Knocks where I got my diploma) can teach you Speeds and Feeds as well as giving you an opportunity to setup and operate these machines under experienced supervision.

As far as learning "Tooling"......I would partener with a distributor that is strong in your area.....most of the good ones (Seco, Iscar, Sumitomo, Sandvik, Toolflo, Vardex to mention a few) will come in and get ya going in the right direction....for a commitment to purchase their product......you can even get one of their catalogs and learn a lot.

The best Machinist that I have ever been around are the ones that spent their young life under the hood of some ole junk car, hammering on it to make it run just so they can take their sweetheart out for burger and shake on Saturday night.

Although we have never shook hands, Bruce, from what I can tell you will end up on top of the heap.

Hope this helps......and I will help you as much as I can.......just gimme a call

hb

[Peter]

Harry is dead nuts on re: the true process of learning.

A much tougher question to face is if you are investing in actual training, which is long and tough and takes talent


OR



are you investinging selling training to people who will buy into your course/school who have no hope of completing it. The gym model. 100 pay, you make it impossible for them to complete.... 1 or 2 make it through.

The former is nobel and not profitable

The latter is practical and makes money.

BUT

supose you are intending the former:

As soon as you train your CNC machinists, they find new jobs and are gone..... it is a dismal, but truthful fact.

SO..... students paying for the training as they go is the only model that is profitable.

But students can't make really good parts. So the machine shop suffers.

Yeah, I'm cynical... by experience.

What do you want to do? Make new machinists and be poor? Or sell impossible dreams to no-talent kids and be rich?


* edit*

my bad... the way I read the OP I thought your question was about investnig in TRAINING machinists.....

Not learning the trade/ profession yourself.

YOU, Bruce, can learn to do it well. This I am sure of. BUT it is it for you?...

Well ....every kid from a half-finished CNC machining course will be nipping at your heels for salary from here in .. per the above post.

How many of them can shake the hand of the owner looking him in the eye in one moment, and dive into the bilge of a Hat or Bert or FedShip and make the repair look easy?

Your choice....

You, Bruce , are a rare and precious breed,

More rare than a CNC machinist...

Just the way it is ....

Charge more, You're worth it.

Peter

[Bruce]

Thanks guys.
This is the current problem that the owner of the shop has. He finds willing people with good basic skills and lathe and milling experience, trains them on cnc machines then they always leave for higher paying jobs that he can't afford to compete with.

He then can't take on the steady orders he needs to upgrade to further levels. He has a few lathe and screw machine operators making parts now. But the cnc machines is where he could take off with.
I myself have numerous designs from over the years of poor parts I've had to continually replace and modify that I still have the sketches from. I modified numerous pieces of marine equipment over the years because of poor design only to see a short time later in most of the cases the newly manufactured stuff mysteriously had my modifications installed.
My dad had 92 patent credits to his name when he retired at 55, except he had the full manufacturing facilities of Philco, Raytheon, RCA, and Ford behind his designs. Its in our blood.


Creating something from a block of wood or metal is an enjoyment for me.

My main contribution besides capital would be toward growing the cnc part of the business. But to grow anything, you have to know what its all about. The school of hard knocks or trial and error as I've been familiar with is not an option here.

He has two cnc machines now, ones a Haas the other is a Mori Seiki, don't know enough about them to give any sort of description but they sit idle making payments. The current owner can run them but trying to travel and sell his manufacturing capabilities plus run the shop leaves no time to run them.

Thanks for the very good advice.

[Carl]

Bruce...here is a good piece of advice I picked up from a very smart man on this site...

Don't walk, Run away...far away.



But as most do not listen to the advice of those who have gone down the same road, I'll add some thoughts to the very good advice given by others.



Smart people looking to get in the trade, learn fast and get good fast ( year or two to become competent on most machines with basic materials), they also figure out that the best way to move up in pay and benefits is to move on to larger companies or in my area City jobs. There is little way to compete with the ease of their jobs or the pay scale and benefits. That is unless you have a product line.

Less smart people stay on as devoted employees...and many days you wish they would leave.

It's a catch 22...you work on the machines yourself and get all the work out...nobody can sell like you can so orders go down...or you sell and bring in jobs...but your people cannot get them out...or worse they are done wrong.

Happy medium for me is to develop my customers product lines so we in essence do lots of repeat work which has been well proven and only need good setup people and operators to get the jobs out. My customers know how to sell their product like nobody else and takes care of keeping orders flowing...I try to design products around my shop, making it difficult for other shops to compete on lowish volumes.



Best way to learn is hands on...

Some do learn CNC first from schooling...I have seen very few do well in a job shop environment. They know what to do...just not quite how without painting themselves in a corner. Also they tend to break lots of tooling as they program optimal and setups, fixtures, tooling and materials do not always allow for that. They also do not have the skill set to correct problems from telltale noises of tooling doing or not doing its job properly. It can get very expensive very fast.

Bringing a machinist up to CNC can be great...but some just do not grasp the Speed and Feeds as they are used to running by the seat of their pants to get jobs done. If they can get around that and willing to look at jobs different...it can be a great match.


How to learn...read everything, books periodicals, machinist handbook, machine manuals, take some classes if you can find them. Around me they ALL closed up. But start by learning manual to learn how tools cut, what chips look like and why they look like they do. Figure out how to break chips, learn strategies that work and build upon them, learn materials and how they differ from a machining standpoint. Look and learn the sounds of a tool cutting properly, a worn tool cutting, the sounds of a machine just spinning as compared to working. These sounds very often are your only clue as to how a tool is performing behind an enclosure with coolant flooding the part. I can sit in my office and listen to 10 machines running and hear a tool breaking down or an operation not going as it should...sometimes get to the machine faster then the operator standing directly in front...but that you pick up on when you know what sounds right.

Machining is like sculpting...the part is in there...you just have to take the material away in certain spots to bring it out...but you have to have a plan on how to do that. Cut the base to much and it heaves, vibrates and you cannot machine. Cut a feature in such a way that you cannot hold part securely to do the next operation and you get to start over...

CNC is taking your machining plan and your machining knowledge and placing it all into a set of instructions (g-code) and having the machine follow your instructions. When possible you try to tackle as many operations per cycle (setup) as possible, as each time part is moved it leaves a potential for error. Machine does nothing magical..it just follows your commands whether good , bad or indifferent. Machine has the potential to work faster and more accurate as conditions are usually optimal over manual.


Running machines only get you so far...

[Bruce]

Machine does nothing magical..it just follows your commands whether good , bad or indifferent

Ain't that the truth.

[Harry Babb]

Bruce

This could really turn into a very good discussion.........If I may hijack your post......sortof.

I generally don't talk much about Sports, or Politics or several other subjects that come up here in our sandbox......mainly because I have no interest in those sort of things and most of my thoughts are just OPINIONS anyway.

But your original question and some of the subsequent responses really hit a nerve with me..........they address a couple of subjects that I am really passionate about.

The first is machining........not to hard at all.....but can be very complicated......every thing that you do has a consequence on the outcome of the finished part.....and I do mean every thing.......and can be unbelievably gradifying.....like most any other trade.

I generally stay at odds with people who always try to find the EASY BUTTON and cut corners......when ya cut corners, something is gonna suffer.

Beyond the act of machining comes the part of handling and working with the people....and quite frankley that is the hard part of the entire equation. I have struggled with the "Management" part of our business for my entire life. I sence this difficulty in some of the post written here.

Sure people come and people go......but you always hope that they made some sort of difference while they were there.

Like I said......I don't know much about sports......but I have noticed that when the team is not successful.......the manager gets fired first.
Don't know his secret, or if he even did, but Paul Bear Bryant seemed to be a master of Managing People.

Recently I discovered a book that I should have read 20 years ago. The name of the book is "Good to Great"......by Jim Collins.....easy reading and makes more sense than anything I have ever read in my entire life.

In reading the book you find that the struggles we all encounter in our businesses (and life for that matter) is our total lack of understanding of motivation of ourselves and others.....which wears ya down to nothing.

I realize that Bruce asked about learning CNC Machining and my first post was my take on what he should do.
But subsequent post opened up the true guts of running a shop and the people......

Once again.......machining, engineering, designing is really not hard work at all....to really be successful.......you have to be alble to assemble a team of folks from all walks of life and keep it all together.

Soooooo.........what are your thoughts guys??.............

hb

[Bob H.]

Bruce, Im with Harry on this one, you sure have what it takes to make it work. A masters in common sense. To get the business in the door it takes a skillful salesperson that knows every inch of the business. Harry and I compare our business fundamentals on a regular basis, both doing well with top key people. The secret is to put the right person in the "right" job and to make sure that no one person has the responsibility of making it work for all. Working our way up the hard way makes it tough to "let" others share the burden of responsibility. Good luck..BH

[Carl]

I think these responses have gone a bit off topic.

I'm thinking the owner is at his wits end and looking for those Key People we are all talking about.

If you cannot find them, make them. You start looking at people with skills, interest, common sense and trustworthy.

A key person in a machine shop is a Machinist, A CNC Shop you need A CNC Machinist, you can have the best managers on the face of the earth but without a machinist in front of those machines nothing goes out the door and the whole thing falls apart.

Even if you are lucky enough to grab a good machinist it is a very good idea to have a good grasp on what they are doing...or supposed to be doing. So to manage a machinist, being a machinist seems to be a good idea, preferably a machinist with common sense. People can look very busy or for that matter work very hard and get very little accomplished doing things the difficult way...and sometimes with varying degrees of success. Its good to be able to know the process and see if it is flowing the way it should...I'll agree there is more then one way to skin a cat and my way is not always the best way...but if their way is very different from mine, I like to hear how someone will be approaching the job before they start. If it makes sense...go for it. But sometimes things like thinking it wise to spend the better part of a day to make a Sub Plate fixture for a $300.00 one time job...well lets say its not the direction we went with. A set of soft jaws in the vise worked very well too.

Bruce- The best way to learn is hands on by far...preferably with a good teacher/machinist and work under them. I learned the most from my fathers foreman before he ventured off on his own. In several months I learned a great deal about the basics and built upon them from every person who has graced our doors or the few shops I was allowed to work in at various times. CNC...picked that up myself, just a matter of formulating your list of processes from beginning to end and loading it into the machine using the machines language of G-Code. How long does it take...I do not know, I'm still learning. But you can be making parts the first day...but a realistic idea is to 6 months to have a basic set of skills in a few materials. I say this as I have taught the basics to people in about that time.

Machine manufactures teach how to use their equipment...you need the skills going in.
Tooling manufactures teach you ways to use their tooling...you need the skills going in.

School--No schools around here to be able to tell you. Guess it would be great to give the basics, the fundamentals to which everything is built. The NTMA I believe has training classes, online or video's...not 100% sure as I just started speaking with them this week about how to find and develop talent.

Like all schools...the level of learning is often dictated by the person teaching.

But If you can find the one teacher/instructor/person who gets it all to click for you...you are able to go off on your own and build upon your foundation. Always going to have hurdles...but once you grasp the basics you know what is working and what is not working and some "educated" guesses along with some trial and error keeps you on the right path.

How long to become a Class A Machinist, a person who can see a part or drawing, grab the correct material, setup and pull the correct tooling and machine to rough it like an animal, then find the appropriate tools with correct speeds and feeds to tickle the finish passes hitting every tolerance in the mean in the most efficient way possible without breaking a sweat...that depends...some never get beyond being able to make a part thats close, takes forever and guy has spent all his energy making it.

Guess its like anything...some grasp it immediately...others never. How long to become a mechanic? What is a mechanic...someone who can do an oil change brakes, someone who can replace part after part till the problem goes away or someone who can stand back, do some checks, diagnose a problem then go in and fix it. Ask the person who changed the brake pads if he's a mechanic and I am sure you will get a definite yes.

[Rawleigh]

Back in the late '90's I had some friends who had a machine shop making some really cool Harley parts on Fadal machining centers. Four valve cylinder heads carved out of a solid chunk of aluminum, etc. The company was called Advanced Racing Technology (ART) and made a lot of parts for nitro drag bikes. Very talented people, but they ultimately failed. My take from their situation was that a machine shop needs to make a couple of meat and potato widgets that come off of CNC machining centers or lathes that can be configured for a single set up so that low end employees can fixture the part and push the button. Lots of simple product with a set profit margin that will carry the shop between the orders for fancy expensive parts (the cream) is essential.

Job shop work is a killer. very hard to price it right and not have it go somewhere else.

[Harry Babb]

Rawleigh.......your right on target.......The Book "Good to Great" describes your thoughts exactly.

Figure out what you do best, what your passionate about, and what make you money.......and keep doing just that. Get the right people on the bus.....in the right seats on the bus.

I am telling you guys that when the team looses they fire the coach! ! ! ! Its your job as the "Master mind" figure out how to maximize the talent in your available talent pool......and get the job done.

When I worked at Mack Trucks the old man that was my boss gave me a Mack Truck Service Manual and just inside the front cover he wrote "RTFB Hippie" (back when I had hair.....long hair) translated.....READ THE F#*^ING BOOK..Hippie......

I am telling you that if you get yourself a copy of the book "Good to Great" and read it at least 2 times......you will be incrediablly enlightened........the scary thing is that it makes you take a good in depth look at yourself.....which is sometimes disappointing and disturbing.

If you guys decide to read the book......pay particular attention to Nucor Steel story as well as the story about Mr Echerd and mr Walgreen.

Later

hb

[Carl]

A machine shop without a machinist is like a bus without a driver...rearrange the people in the seats, chant, cheer and sing Cumbaya all you want...but the bus stands still till you get a driver.



Yes, by all means fire the coach for not hiring a competent driver or being one himself...but thats the topic of this post, isn't it. Where does Bruce find, how does Bruce attract a good competent machinist...a CNC machinist at that. And how would Bruce best learn the trade himself.



If the place is doing repeat work or production...you figure out a few process, layout the process step by step with pictures so others can follow the steps and your good. I am thinking this is more of a job shop type deal...maybe I am wrong. But in a job shop each job is a new challenge with new materials, new tooling, fixtures, approaches etc etc...maybe not the case. Maybe owner can teach and layout the process, place into a manual were someone, including Bruce can pickup job packet and be off running...

Easiest year we had was the busiest year we ever had...thousands and thousands of the same assembly. We did in lots of 250pcs(25 pallets of parts) as we could not store more. First few rounds were a pain...but soon after I trained and cross trained the guys, they soon were able to do each process almost from start to finish. Someone didn't show I could move any person over to cover him. New hires were trained by the people on the floor. At times we were running two lots of the job concurrently all going somewhat smooth...But thats production of a single family of product...and not a job shop.

Hmmm...thinking now Bruce did say manufacturing. Yup, I just went back...manufacturing. Making the same item over and over? That is a bit less of a challenge as you need not become a full fledged machinist, but learn the processes laid out by owner. learn snippets of the trade pertaining the parts you are making. Hire and train people to perform those tasks. You can certainly grow your knowledge base as time goes on...enhance production as you implement new tactics and tooling.



...and Harry, I pick up the book and give a read...that is the one by Jim Collins i assume.

[Harry Babb]

...and Harry, I pick up the book and give a read...that is the one by Jim Collins i assume.

Carl
Jim Collins wrote another book called "Built To Last"........Ironically.......he wrote Built to Last first.......when actually "Good To Great" defines how to bring a "Good" company thru transformation into a "Great Company"......then "Built to last" describes how to keep the company Great. Truthfully......I do not own a copy of "Built To Last" yet. I have read "Good to Great" twice and about to read it yet the third time.

Bruce DID ask how to learn CNC Machining.......and I think that was addressed early on in the responses to his post. Obviously Bruce DID get his questions answered and I say that with confidence based on the fact that he has not come back to this subject asking further questions.

I did mention earlier that my further replies were on the border of "Hijacking" his post.......but I do feel that it is extremely important that if Bruce (Or anyone else for that matter) is considering making an investment into a struggling yet growing company, folks like us, who have already been down the trail for many years can and should offer our experiences and share battle stories that will help with the success of their endeavor.

In the book "Good to Great" you will find a brief story about NUCOR STEEL. Nucor is responsible for the MINI MILL concept of steel making. Their theory was to build small mini mill in rural farm towns and avoid the big cities known for steel making. Their idea was that if they were located in the "Farm" town they could attract hard working folks that already had good work ethic...........their idea was that they could teach steel making to people with good work ethic easier than they could teach Work Ethic to talented STEEL MAKERS...........and it worked.

May be we should start another Post to discuss business management techniques...........I am sure that everybody here has war stories and successes..........that they would possibly share.........To me this topic is very interesting......

Carl........thanks for keeping it going......

Let me know what you think of the book

hb

[Rocket]

Harry, my wife and I own a business that we have grown from 2 employees (us) to 120 in the past 20 years. It is all about people and the level of engagement of those people. The further you get away from the actual work, the more important the engagement becomes. The people on the front line are really the only ones who have the opportunity to know what is happening and why, you need to give them the tools to tell you about it, then support them in doing something about. Good to great is a really good book, so is his latest, Great by Choice, particularly the part about firing bullets before Cannon balls. Another good Business book is Jack Stack's "The great game of Business" and Bo Burlinghams "Small Giants" .

Another one which is not really a usiness book, but would work well for the machine shop environment is "The Checklist Manifesto" by Atul Gawande who is a doctor.

Great thread guys

[Harry Babb]

Wow Rocket........that's very impressive......120 folks......we employ 18. We have been in business for 35 years now. The first 10 or 12 years had no real direction.

Assuming that I was mature enough to comprehend the principles in Good To Great.....I wish I had read it when I was much younger.

I am not aware of the other books that you recommended but for sure will get copies of Collins other publications.

If you don't mind me asking.......what type of business do you and your wife have?

hb

[Rocket]

We have a commercial recycling company, so we were in the right industry at the right time!

http://www.urbanimpact.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Harry Babb]

That's a good place to be Rocket......impressive website.

Do you notice that the Harder you work the Luckier you get?!?!?!

My neighbor owns a Construction Waste Container company. Everything he collects goes directly to the land fill. Several years ago my daughter had her house renovated. At least 2 or 3 times a week she was rummaging thru the Dumpster at her house pulling out really good 2x4's....half sheets of plywood and who knows what else.....that she eventually used to make shelves in their Boat Barn.

I have often thought that my neighbor could develop an entire new income stream if he setup a conveyor to sort some of the building materials that are in the dumpsters.

Our business has somewhat of a unique niche to it, too.......first of all we really pride ourselves in accruacy.......that alone seems to draw a good clientele......then we strive and struggle daily to be on time......and except when I get a wild idea we stick to what we know.

hb

[Rocket]

Harry I work very closely with a machinest and with a fabricator. Together we have designed and built everything from simple modifications to a crane to specialized conveyors to a unique loading system for our paper trucks to a complete divided truck body. During this time, I have learned a little about the machine shop world and when you said that accuracy is one of your trademarks, it made me realise what type of operation you run. We sometimes curse our machinist beacause trying to replace a pin in a difficult location when the part has been made perfectly accurately, the assembly can be challenging! Of course had the OEM made the pin to the with such tight tolerances in the first place, we probably would not be needing to replace it! It seems that the guys who can build an accurate part also understand the most effecient way to produce it, have suggestions for improving an assembly and only have to make it once and their scrap bin is only fill of chips. That is why a "shop rate" is no way to to buy machining services. The good guys charge more per hour, then put fewer hours into it, which is truly the definition of value. This guy runs a job shop, with some repeat runs and all his machines are antiques, but he has modified them all and installed NC and CNC controls in many of them. He has invested in some newer stuff, but his shop is small, he makes a really good living and takes great pride in his work and has fun doing it.

[Major]

Im a little late to the part but wanted to stop in. I went through the tech school deal from basic machining to tool and die making and finally to CNC topics in the end. For me the manual machining classes were definitely the way to go to get the basics down. Feeds and speeds are a big deal to learn but also workholding as mentioned earlier. In a cnc program not taking workholding into account in the program will really set you back timewise even if you didn't crash the machine. Even topics that seem trivial like the order of what should be machined first is brought up in the basic classes. Various machines will have their own controls and programming methods so that will be more of the on the job training side of learning.

As far as keeping people the atmosphere has allot to do with it in my opinion. I worked for Michelin in their mold shop and moved back home to help my dad when the economy tanked since his business was hurting. I had a great supervisor and coworkers so its was hard to leave but they did say if I wanted to come back they would do what they could to get me back in. Im still here where my dads company is and started up a new calibration company but miss machining. I have thought about putting out my resume just do do it part time. If you can keep a good workplace where people get along for the most part and like what they do pay is relative. When I worked for Michelin we had "office people" constantly on us about production and why things couldn't be faster when they had zero machining experience. That was the one thing I hated most and why I loved working second shift every other week. So my point is to keep a good environment so even if the employees make a little less they enjoy the workplace and that will somewhat make up for a small difference.