Teak deck

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 18th, '13, 07:09

What to do?

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 18th, '13, 07:42

For the moment she's clean

jackryan · Post by **jackryan** » Aug 18th, '13, 14:20

I have some samples of a faux teak deck that is make of a rubber material. Does anyone have any experience with this product? It certainly does not look as nice as a real teak deck, but it does look nice and would be very low maintenance. I was wondering if it would get hot in the sun? Their website says that it has good anti-skid performance. Here's a link http://www.flexiteek.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's some others: http://www.plasteak.com/marine-teak-decking" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.nuteak.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's a do-it-yourself teak deck demo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8qy9UtW0g4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here are some reviews: http://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-for ... ews.html#b" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JR

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 18th, '13, 14:34

I certainly don't need to replace the deck, but maybe your asking for your own reasons.

The lip that the hatches sit on seem to have been coated in epoxy but his one has cracked or chipped off. I now have some rotted wood th I need to somehow clean up before resealing. Taking the decks out is a major pain that I want to avoid.

Buju · Post by **Buju** » Aug 18th, '13, 16:39

Pete, I'd do the following:

mask off the adjacent exposed deck with masking tape
spray some bleach spray cleaner onto the lip, scrub it with a stiff nylon brush, rinse clean, let dry.
remove any substrate thats rotted beyond hope.
cover the underlying below deck components with visqueen/builder paper/drop cloth.
clean of the lip with a good alcohol bath.
mix up an appropriate sized batch of epoxy, thin it about 15% with denatured alcohol.
liberally apply the thinned epoxy with a throw away brush to the hatch lips, keep on applying as it soaks into the wood, until its gone.
mix up a batch of epoxy, thicken it to mayo consistency with silica & strand glass.
use the thickened epoxy to fill all voids from where rotted substrate was removed, apply with plastic spreader/putty knife/etc-
wipe away excess silica/strand thickened epoxy so the surface is pretty close to being flush with slight depressions where the voids were.
mix up a small batch of epoxy, thicken it to peanut butter consistency with microballons.
apply the microballon thickened epoxy to the entire hatch lip and let it kick.
sand the lip/tracks with 80 grit on a block to resurface your shape
sand it again with 120, then 220.
stick a fork in it, or prime and paint it
chug a beer

ljmauricio · Post by **ljmauricio** » Aug 18th, '13, 17:32

I've used it on a 26 Rampone CC on deck and cover boards. It does get hot in the sun. Very easy to maintain, and no one asked if it was real teak.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 18th, '13, 18:08

Thanks buju. I will have to start researching each of the products like microballons.

jackryan · Post by **jackryan** » Aug 18th, '13, 20:43

Peter,

No my deck is fine. I was thinking from your post that you were needing to replace your teak deck, and thought you might be interested in a synthetic deck. Sorry,

JR

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 18th, '13, 21:08

No problem. Deck is generally in great condition. Just those lips and the ends of the hatches as well need a little maintenance.

Buju · Post by **Buju** » Aug 18th, '13, 22:42

For products, you can go with the West System line of epoxies. They're pricey, but its a pretty foolproof system.

Resin:

Hardener:

Silica additive:

strand glass:

microballon (microsphere) additive:

There are a lot of other epoxy resins, hardeners, additives, etc out there. If you go to a glass place (hit up Robbie) you can get similar products without the marked up packaging.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 19th, '13, 05:46

Thanks again. I spent the night reading their product descriptions and videos.

I have 5 hatches in the deck, I think I will do all of them while I'm at it including the edges of the hatches.

Thanks so much.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 19th, '13, 08:02

If I want to do the hatch edges while I'm at should I just skip the silica step?

Buju · Post by **Buju** » Aug 19th, '13, 18:07

What are the hatch edges like?

The thinned epoxy primes the surface & penetrates deeply into the wood so its more than a surface bond

the silica/strand mix bonds to the primed substrate, fills the voids and is very strong

the microballon mix fills the smaller surface voids, and provides a easily sandable surface...

If your hatch edges dont have rot and voids, then I suppose you dont need that. But I'm not sure what you're looking to do if they're in pretty good shape?
Just seal em up?
If you remove a lot of rotted wood, you may want to lay a little glass cloth to hold things together before adding the thickened resin.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 19th, '13, 19:49

The resin on the hatch edges are starting to chip and crack. I didn't do a thorough inspection but doesn't seem to be water damaged but it may be next if I'm not proactive. I don't think I will need any fill

From what your explains I don't think there is any coat that penetrated the wood initially

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 20th, '13, 07:46

Buju and everyone else,

I first wanted to thank you for putting in time to walk me through this. With the two kids and my limited time I'm trying to plan this out and buy materials in advance so I can fit this in to my schedule.

Question:

As I move from thinned expoxy to silicia and microballon do I only need it to tack up before moving on to the next or do I need to allow it to cure?

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Aug 20th, '13, 08:13

As I move from thinned expoxy to silicia and microballon do I only need it to tack up before moving on to the next or do I need to allow it to cure?

Regardless of the resin type, epoxy, polyester, or vinylester, proceeding with the next resin application when the previous one is tacky is a good thing, allowing a complete bond between applications...

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 27th, '13, 21:29

So I've started to clean everything and trying to dry it out.

Question, the sections that are not rotted should I cover them with the silica and stand glass? How should I approach the sections in good shape. Don't assume I know anything my only experience with epoxy is tying flies.

Thanks again.

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Aug 28th, '13, 06:22

Peter-
I use West Systems, and can buy it at my local True Value Hardware store for 20-25% less than at any marine store.

John

Buju · Post by **Buju** » Aug 28th, '13, 06:55

PeterPalmieri wrote: Question, the sections that are not rotted should I cover them with the silica and stand glass? How should I approach the sections in good shape. Don't assume I know anything my only experience with epoxy is tying flies.

What you wanna do is make a body section by using a natural rabbit strip whipped on, then a drab colored dubbing palmered up to a grizzly hackle dual wing, with a few strands of flashabou. Make a buoyant head by using a spun bucktail technique, whip finish it with Kevlar thread, and put a dab of epoxy over the wrap. And trim the spun bucktail into a rear tapering shape which flares out near the wing... then chug a beer.

That was fun. Peter, how do you plan on finishing the hatch ledges? Gonna paint them? Leave them in their god given epoxy colors, what?

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 28th, '13, 08:01

I was just gonna leave them in epoxy as they are hidden from view, unless there is a reason I should paint them. My only concern is to repair the wet sections and give a clean coat to all the lips so I can check this off the maintenance list for a few years.

Thus far I've removed all 5 hatches, left them open to dry for a day, taped them all off and sprayed with bleach. Will go back down tonight clean the gunk out and scrub them down with a brush, remove bad wood and hopefully it will be dry with no rain for the weekend.

Stop off at WM tonight and pick up my supplies.

You have summarized my epoxy experience to a T, trip is planned for False Albacore and bass in Montauk for mid September. If you've got the most recent issue of Flyfishing in Saltwater (Sept/Oct) the pictures of those bass blitzes are a daily occurance.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 28th, '13, 09:23

One more question...I called west System and walked them through my plans. They made two suggestions, DO NOT thin the epoxy rather use a heat gun to heat up the wood, the heat would thin the epoxy and help it penetrate the wood. Also suggested using 206 rather than 209.

Good Idea or bad idea? I'm inclined to go verbatum off Buju's instructions...

JohnV8r · Post by **JohnV8r** » Aug 28th, '13, 09:47

Peter,

Definitely thin the epoxy on the first coat. You want it to soak into the wood at essentially the same rate that water would so that it penetrates as far as water might. It's not a bad idea to hit the wood with a heat gun to make sure you have removed all the moisture you can, but the idea that heating the wood would be more effective than thinning the first couple of coats of epoxy is not accurate.

If you thin the epoxy like you should, it will almost disappear into the wood like water. That is what you want...the epoxy soaking itself deep into the wood to arrest further deterioration of the wood. When you do an epoxy undercoat on teak trim that hasn't fully dried out and you haven't effectively thinned the epoxy, you trap the moisture in the wood which will cause it to continue to rot while it is encapsulated in the epoxy coat.

Good luck!

John Vietor

JohnV8r · Post by **JohnV8r** » Aug 28th, '13, 09:50

One other thing: Laying epoxy down on hot wood can cause the epoxy to bubble up. This in turn will necessitate additional sanding to achieve a smooth finish and remove the rings from the epoxy bubbles. Let the wood cool before you put the first coat on.

JohnV8r · Post by **JohnV8r** » Aug 28th, '13, 09:53

Last comment: Yes, I would use 206 instead of 209. Slow is plenty slow for your application. You don't need Extra Slow.

Stephan · Post by **Stephan** » Aug 28th, '13, 11:03

My guess is the epoxy will bubble. I would not really worry about that it does not look to be an area where the cosmetics are important. If it bugs you just pass a butane torch over the bubbles and they will pop.
I am generally a neat worker but I loose like 30 IQ points (I don't have 'em to spare) whenever I am handling epoxy or 5200. Your deck is beautiful; I would mask and cover like crazy before going near it with the epoxy.
Best,
Stephan

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Aug 28th, '13, 11:12

just pass a butane torch over the bubbles and they will pop.

WHOA! Be careful there. If the epoxy has been thinned with alcohol or other volatile liquid, that torch is gonna' touch off a fire. Don't ask me how I know...

Buju · Post by **Buju** » Aug 28th, '13, 11:18

Well I'm not going to argue with a Gougeon techie...
They tend to know their product app.
But I can't help but think that their method sounds good in theory, but in reality may be impractical.
It'd def be a good idea to hit the wood with a gun prior to epoxy app, and a check with a moisture meter wouldn't hurt, but you'll know if its good or not.

The slow vs extra slow... I always like to error on the side of more working time because of the cost of resin and hardener. For the thinned initial application it's not an issue. But for the subsequent thickened epoxy applications, I'd go x slow. Remember, the more epoxy (volume) you have in a pail, the faster its going to kick.
You have several hatches, youll be mixing up a good amount of epoxy.

If you leave the finish as exposed epoxy, it'll start to look bad after a year I'd guess. The epoxy will yellow and become more opaque over time, which will also make it more brittle and prone to fail.
You could remedy that by using the special clear coat hardener, or painting it.
To paint you could simply wash it clean with soap & water, then apply a few coats of a prepack brown urethane enamel.
Qt of Briteside, Easypoxy, even rustoleum.

Marlin · Post by **Marlin** » Aug 28th, '13, 20:02

West is to way to expensive ,try us composites in fl ,Merritt in Rivera beach fl, glue products in west palm, all will ship fed ex, thin with alcohol, do it many times a month on project boats, what u are doing is a bandaid ,
, a temp fix, kinda like the iceberg principal, in the old wood boat days we would drill 1/16 " holes in this area to a depth that felt non punky anymore,lots of them, use slow cure and keep on applying till it doesn't absorb anymore ,follow the suggested proceedures previously described,

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 29th, '13, 05:41

Marlin it is a temporary fix, hopefully one that will last a few seasons.

After speaking with the prior owner who built the deck and a close inspection I can see that the lip is bolted from underneath. It looks like the lips can be removed and replaced. The lips are made of white oak. This would be a simple job once the deck is removed. But removing the deck is a big job. So I'm gonna move forward and worry about a more permanent solution in the future.

WM is about a half mile from the boat and I'm estimating materials to be a tab over $200 and I am doing the work this weekend. I will keep those other vendors in mind for the future.

Thank you. And thanks again to everyone who has weighed in.

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Aug 29th, '13, 05:56

FWIW, I've followed the advice here and thinned with alchohol and it really soaks in. I've never used a torch or heat gun. Again, check your local hdwre store to see if they carry West Systems. Its about 20% less $ than West Marine, and I usually have some kind of coupon that makes it 25-30% less.

Stephan · Post by **Stephan** » Aug 29th, '13, 10:00

CaptPatrick wrote: WHOA! Be careful there. If the epoxy has been thinned with alcohol or other volatile liquid, that torch is gonna' touch off a fire. Don't ask me how I know...

I won't dare ask how you know and I will take this as a good reminder that I've gotten very comfortable with this practice but I am curious:
If I don't go bubble hunting until 20-30 minutes after application won't all the acetone or alcohol have left the epoxy by then?
Is it a very pale blue or clear flame -that I could miss- until the epoxy itself gets cookin?
I'm just now realizing how hard it would be to pull the trigger on a fire extinguisher pointed at some special teak/mahogany/oak in an area I've cleaned to do finish epoxy/varnish work. I'm guessing waiting for it to burn itself out is not an option. If I should earn a, "don't ask me how I know..." moment what's recommended for putting the fire out?
Thanks, and I haven't intended this as a hijack of Pete's thread but a useful safety tangent. Apologies if it appears otherwise.
Stephan

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 29th, '13, 10:11

The main hatch in my little project is over the fuel tank, this is making me a bit sceptical to even use a heat gun to dry things out. Any reason for concern? I'll use my small Honda EU to power the heat gun.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 29th, '13, 10:14

John F. wrote:FWIW, I've followed the advice here and thinned with alchohol and it really soaks in. I've never used a torch or heat gun. Again, check your local hdwre store to see if they carry West Systems. Its about 20% less $ than West Marine, and I usually have some kind of coupon that makes it 25-30% less.

There is a True Value right next to West Marine, I'll run in before going to WM. With that said I have 25% off WM coupon which I will use for the West System.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Aug 29th, '13, 10:29

If I don't go bubble hunting until 20-30 minutes after application won't all the acetone or alcohol have left the epoxy by then?

Most volatile liquids, alcohol and acetone included, will flash off within that time frame if they are not part of a mix. Mixed with a resin however they remain volatile for quite awhile because air is not reaching any volatile molecules below the the surface.

what's recommended for putting the fire out?

A fire extinguisher can leave a hellofa mess... A fire requires three elements: heat, fuel, & air. Remove any one of those elements and the fire is extinguised. A wet blanket could work under the right conditions...

Navatech · Post by **Navatech** » Aug 29th, '13, 12:41

CaptPatrick wrote:A fire extinguisher can leave a hellofa mess...

Just one reason I prefer to have a few CO2 extinguishers on hand... In addition to the more standard powder extinguishers...

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 29th, '13, 16:50

Another question.

Everything is just about dried out now and I have of the old epoxy that's flaking off. Do I need to remove all the old stuff? If so how?

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Aug 29th, '13, 18:05

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Aug 29th, '13, 21:37

Peter

One thing, if the lip is removable, and you accidently epoxxy it to the main part of the deck, you could have a bigger mess when you go on to perform the bigger job and they don't come off.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 30th, '13, 05:53

Tony it seems they have already been epoxied together that is why I can't remove them now without pulling up the deck.

Seems to be after they were bred on so just the seam but couldn't be sure unless the deck is out.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 2nd, '13, 05:28

Update.

Did my prep all week at night after the kids went to bed, looked like rain yesterday but I got all the steps of west system on. CraigMac was nice enough to stop by and keep me company for a bit. Went back down after dark and all seems good just need to sand. Woke up this morning to wet ground, it rained over night but no problems. Looks a little rough but a wanted to make sure I hit everything good.

Shannon had to go to work this morning so I now have to figure out how I'm going to watch two small kids and get my sanding done.

Thanks again, I'll post some pics when she's done.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 2nd, '13, 11:07

Feeling a bit defeated at the moment. Time to wash up and play with the kids.

Sanded everything down, looking to get the fit just right two of the hatches are stuck closed. The handles to lift them have small pins that snap with the slightest amount of pressure. Going to have to find solid replacement handles and replace them to pull the hatches out. Sand the edges more and refit.

Between the rain, kids and everything closed today I'm throwing my hands up until another day.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 3rd, '13, 06:18

Looking at the pulls on the hatches ( in the earlier picture) any recommendation for a better design?

I'm thinking I will unscrew the latch and using the existing holes screw in a piece of wood I can use to pull the hatches.

The culprit is the rounded corners were hard to get, I think I can use a dremel to work those edges.

Then hopefully I can replace the pulls with something more durable?

My best guess these are what are on the boat now.

http://www.whitecapindustries.net/produ ... ductId=432" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

EDIT: They look like the Whitecap s-222 but in fact are not made by them

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Sep 3rd, '13, 21:34

Peter

Read through these. Mike gives a description of using stainless steel carriage bolt.

http://bertram31.com/newbb/viewtopic.ph ... lls#p38668" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://bertram31.com/newbb/viewtopic.ph ... lls#p39101" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 4th, '13, 05:27

Thanks for the links Tony. Unfortunately with the deck already set up with the existing pulls I need something that will at least cover the existing surface of the plate. Otherwise I will have an exposed routed out area to deal with.

Buju · Post by **Buju** » Sep 4th, '13, 08:05

You get those radius corners sanded yet Peter?

Works good to take a hole saw of the appropriate size, minus the drill bit, and wrap your PSA sandpaper around it.
Then use that, carefully, on your drill to sand the radius...

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 4th, '13, 10:30

Thanks Buju. Haven't done it yet. I'm a weekend warrior.

It's a long way down to the boat today

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Sep 4th, '13, 22:25

Peter

Making me jealous. I miss those views. Had them for 27 years before I got a job close to home. Some thing about that view, nothing like it. I miss Manhatten.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 5th, '13, 13:18

Tony, I go in to the city ocassionally. You are only remembering the good parts like the views (both animate and inanimate) and the choice of foods. You forget about being herded like cattle at the train station, delays, the smell of the subway in the summer etc. You can keep it I'm happy to be out in the burbs..

Buju, locating PSA sand paper locally is a pain in the rear. There is a tool shop I am going to try tomorrow, I have a friend who has different drum type drill attachments, better then using a hole saw. I also picked up a bunch of dremel micro drums (made up word) they are about the size of a chapstick cap, good for details but to remove material it is gonna take a while.

I spoke to Whitecap who makes the junky lift rings, they say those are not designed for a heavy hatch. They and some others make a more durable type handle. But I am going to wait until the winter to replace handles when the cover is on and I can bring the hatches home to work on.

Any thoughts on handles, assuming I am not going to find a replacement where the hols line up so I'll look to go slightly over sized. Any thoughts on a technique to recess new lifts, should I use a router or a chisel? Should I fill the holes and seal with west sytstem and then bed the new lifts in the same caulk as the deck seems?

While I'd love to use the bolt idea the Capt outlined it's not going to work for me with existing cut outs.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 5th, '13, 15:39

Added note:

I spoke to the folks at Whitecap, in fact they did NOT make the pulls on my hatches, although they are similar. That style really isn't designed for heavy hatches like mine. The gentleman there was ultra helpful even though I don't have his product on my boat. He's even going to send me a sample piece that he thinks will fit with minimal modifications. Sometimes you meet the most helpful people who go out of their way....

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 9th, '13, 14:24

Almost there, big festival at the marina yesterday did not give me the opportunity to finish up.

I found some replacement lifts at Freeport marine just a hair smaller then the originals. and bought the caulking for the teak seams.

I replaced the handles and let it set up. I attached a rope to the pull and had to make a harness so that I could squat and use my thighs to lift the hatch, even so it took me some time to get the larger one out. With both removed, I used a dremel to sand things down. Over did it in a few spots, so after getting everything fitted just right I put on a another coat of epoxy to my bald spots. Let that set up overnight and put my hatches back in place 5AM Sunday morning while I could still gain access pre festival.

Still have to do a light sanding and paint, I bought the west system hardner that is a clear UV protector, forgot the # and sand down the caulk around the pull and clean off the pull..

under close inspection some spots on the hatches will need to be done too, will wait until the boat is covered for the winter.