Transmission Down Angle Question

[JohnV8r]

I just got off the phone with the ZF dealer up here in Northern California. He has asked if I would be able to go to a ZF 85A transmission for two reasons: First, the transmission/trolling valve is engineered with a thermostat to ensure that in the 50 degree water up here the viscosity of the transmission fluid is a consistent temperature, thereby ensuring the trolling valve performs consistently.

Second, the trolling valve for the ZF 85A is significantly less expensive than the trolling valve for the ZF 220, which costs about the same as the entire ZF 220 transmission.

The catch is the ZF 85A only goes up to an 8 degree down angle, which would mean I would have to increase the angle on the engine beds/ramps from 5 degrees to 7 degrees. That raised two questions for me: 1) Any issue fitting Cummins 6BTA 5.9's under the motor boxes with a 7 degree down angle? 2) Any issue with the oil in the pan on a 6BTA pooling in an undesirable way at 7 degrees?

Lastly, does anyone have any experience with the 85A versus the 220A? Any reason I should favor the 220 over the 85A other than the down angle issue?

Thanks in advance!

[Harry Babb]

John

Cummins maximum "Front Up" operating angle is 15 degrees.

I am pretty sure that the engine will fit under the engine box if mounted at 7 or 8 degrees "Front Up". It works out that every degree that the engine is elevated, equates to about 7/8" vertical heigth.......so the difference in the heigth of the front of an engine mounted at 5 degrees vs one mounted at 7 degrees is about 1-3/4".

You will have to add the "Running Angle" of the boat to the static position of the engine to get the operating angle......I don't know what the running angle of our 31's happens to be, but I cannot imagine that its more than 5 to 7 degrees......may be I should measure it one day.

Now as far at the ZF gear application.....someone else will have to address that issue.......

Good luck

hb

[JohnV8r]

Thanks Harry!

[Tony Meola]

John

If I remember right the old gas engines and BW transmissions were straight in line drives. So if the shaft angle is 10 to 12 degrees Then the engine angle would have to follow suite. Now if the shaft angle is a known entity, and then you have an 8 degree down transmission, I am thinking you get about a 4 degree engine angle.

Sorry geometry was my week spot in school so double check this out.

Just as an fyi, in the old mercs, my father an excellent mechanic in his day, used to run an extra quart of oil to make up for the angle when she got up on a plane. He always figured the front bearing would starve for oil. Never had a foaming problem but we also only used mercruiser oil. I know todays ol with all of the additives tend to foam.

[CaptPatrick]

A few of the B31s, with original 1 1/4" shafts and short struts, had a shaft angle of 10º. The vast majority of B31s, with original 1 3/8" shafts and the longer struts, have a 15º shaft angle.

[Pete Fallon]

John V8er,
It depends on which configuration you have, mine was the 10 degree angle with the short bronze struts 440 Chryslers with direct drive and intermediate strut bearings near the exit of the shaft log tube and 1-1/4" shafts, like Pat said it depends on the angle. I put in 454 Mercruiser 7.4 L throttle bodied fuel injected engines with a 630A Hurth 8 degree down angle tranny, had to cut down the front engine beds at little, also had to notch the aft bulkhead cross member so the electric connectors on the back of the tranny sending units would fit inside the engine space. I also had the old style 2 lid engine boxes, had to cut notches between the two overhead lids, so that the top off the throttle body cover fit inside the boxes. I changed them out a couple of years ago to single piece box from Marlins 31 he had new boxes built.
I don't think you will have any problems putting any type of trannies as long as you have 15 degrees at the front of the motors like Harry said. You might want to check out your stuffing boxes ( inspect for shaft groves at packing nut and really check your strut barrels for any cracks at the barrel area. Go to Harbor Freight or any tool place and get a angle measuring device a dial with angles on the flats they are not expensive that way you can check your shaft angle, it's more than likely going to be 15 degrees.
Pete Fallon

[JohnV8r]

Pete,

Thanks for that. I do have a total of 15 degrees down angle currently. Also, Shambala is a 1978, so she has the longer struts. I also get a little bit of help on the running angle because of the weight of the bow pulpit she has.



My biggest concern was whether I would suffer some type of detrimental issue going from 5 to 7 degrees given Tony Athens' position that the 6BTA's have a propensity to beat oil in the pan into a froth. Based on Capt. Patrick's input and Harry's information on the additional height 2 degrees would add at the front of the engine, I think I will be OK. Also, I'm going to pull the bronze shaft logs and replace them with fiberglass shaft logs.

I just want to make sure I do everything right the first time, which is why I am asking a lot of questions - some remedial - now instead of making assumptions. I'd rather measure twice and cut once. I have certainly appreciated everyone's time and help. It is amazing how much more confident I feel being able to ask questions and bounce ideas off a group with the collective experience here in our little pond.

Most of the time I elect to do work on Shambala myself because I think it's hard to find anyone else who will put as much effort into doing it right. Someday when I'm dead and buried Shambala will be at a fuel dock somewhere and someone will come up and say, "Man, that's a beautiful boat." Knowing that I did things the right way and left Shambala in much better shape than I found her will be my small legacy in the legend of the Bertram 31.

[Ironman]

John:I m not sure if anyone addressed this.. the port exhaust crossover needs room to wrap it with the heat blanket.. mine is fairly close to the engine hatch .I would not want it any higher.
also dont forget about modifing the port front left motor mount for ease in replacing raw water pump.. things I shouild have done..
Wayne

[JohnV8r]

Wayne,

I'll call you before I am going to be down again. I would love to take a look at exactly what you are talking about. I should be down in the first half of September.

Hope you're doing well!

John

[Rocky]

Hey John, I've got an answer for the trans trolling valves- two 5 gallon buckets and ropes LOL !! I didn't realize the temp issue up were we are thanks. Now is it just the price difference and the 220 will work up here, have you talked with Tony about this he probably has done a few boats up at this water temp? Maybe I'll ask him if you havn't, but he hasn't mentioned temp when he gave me the quote, just the "package" with 220's. I picture a sales representitive at the ZF dealer trying to sell you his last 85A"s he has laying about! BTW, nice pic of Shambala in the bay, live bait and striper?

[JohnV8r]

Rocky,

Funny you mention buckets...I actually had a special harness made so I could either tow a drogue or a bucket depending on how slowly I wanted to go. It was a good idea in theory, but a pain in the ass in practice. With the drogue, you could never come out of gear up here because inevitably the wind and current would always conspire to put you right on top of it. I never fouled the rudders or the props with the drogue, but I came close before I finally decided not to take the boat out of gear when I was hooked up. Then there would always be some idiot in a 12' aluminum boat at Duxbury who would want to play chicken. I actually had a guy scream, "You arrogant prick. You think just because you're out here in a two hundred thousand dollar boat you own the place?" I was actually pretty happy that he thought my then 26 year-old B31 looked like a $200K boat. Finally, my oldest son (7 at the time) broke a 35+ lb salmon off in the drogue and I retired it in favor of trolling at 3-3.5 knots on one engine. I'm done with drogues and am getting trolling valves or will give up trolling for salmon in favor of mooching.

I exchanged some great emails with Tony Athens last week on the subject of gears, trolling valves, and the temperature issue. God bless the guy, he took the time to answer my questions via email while he was on vacation in Florida. I didn't expect an answer until he returned. Here are his comments on gear options:

I have no issue with TD gears other then they are hard to get, over priced, and if you have an issue, TD can never do wrong--- it's always an installation related issue until YOU PROVE otherwise. TD has a very good reputation, but it was all built long BEFORE they started to compete w/ ZF making smaller modern light weight gears.. They have built ZERO reputation for the past 15-20 years--Even CABO Yachts & Cummins won't touch them anymore as an OEM offering.

That said, I also have not quite come around to accepting the ZF85A yet (modeled after ZF80A that was finally dumped just a few yrs back-----issue after issue after issue).. But yes, I have used them and so far so good on the ones I have installed.. (You might look at the Searay, Bayliner or Meridian forums for more current feedback on the ZF85A)

But regardless, the ZF85A cannot compete with the ZF220A (10 degree-- best fit & $$ for your Bertram ) or ZF280A ( 7 degree with best valve-ing /shifting overall, and "tough as nails") as to long term service, support, and $$..

Here are his comments regarding trolling valve options, water temperature, and thermostatic controls:

Both TD and ZF valves all work the same and neither comes with a thermostatically controlled oil cooler or bypass circuit UNLESS you specifically add it----Plus, the thermostat is not part of the troll valve--it's part of the oil cooling circuit with any gear--Someone is feeding you something less than complete/accurate info. Does having a controlled oil temp work better? Yes it can as long as you define what better is. About all it will do is require a little less finesse-ing over the course of a long day trolling. But, it's going to be very far from being hands-off…. Cost??--Could easily add $300-400 or more per package as the oil cooler and circuit is now quite complex in operation, bulky, and needs added plumbing. I have at least 10 guys under my belt that fish Salmon up your way that have non-thermostat oil coolers-- no one seems to complain--BTW, they had a great year with many of them having over a 1000 fish count.

The installation of any troll valve on any gear and "dialing it in" is never just a 1,2,3 thing.. There is the install of the valve on the gear-- Always the easiest part.. Then, there is the "control", and, how do you "monitor" part of the install in the boat itself- Always a time consuming and labor intensive task to do it right-- each boat and each gear is different... Dialing it in as to actual operation? That will come with use with any valve type and boat combo--Just the weather conditions at the time will always add an new twist each time you use it.

The closest thing to a "set & forget" troll valve are the ones that are part of an electronic control package that have a "revolution counter" on the prop shaft coupling and proportional electronic valving on the gear that literally keeps the shaft turning the same RPM regardless of outside variables.. Very nice but complex and pricey.

Troll valve cost-- again your info is not quite 100%-

ZF85A troll valve is about $700-ish BUT IT DOES NOT include any type of thermostat thingy (troll valve part #3313199012) --"[your source]" is wrong on this. That is a separate kit and runs around $300-ish (thermostat kit part #3312207001) - (I just dropped a note direct to ZF to see if anything has changed on this-- If I put my foot in my mouth, I want to know it before you do..).

ZF220A Troll valve--Again, [your source] is wrong-- Less than $900 when part of a new gear option..

ZF280A troll valve-- $550 when on a new gear package-- and very nice unit!

We stock all troll valves for the ZF gears--all of them--ZF85A, ZF220A and ZF280A

TD option--Yes, they are expensive!

That is the most complete and transparent information on gears, trolling valves, and water temp/need for thermostatic control that I have received from anyone on the West Coast.

The really interesting part of this whole repower process is that one of the easy decisions back around 2005 was to go with Yanmar 6LP's and get them from John List at List Marine in Sausalito. He had a great reputation as "THE" Yanmar guy in the SF Bay Area and was very thorough in answering my questions in 2005 when I almost pulled the trigger on the repower. His reputation remains stellar, but Yanmar is no longer a realistic option.

Contrast that with the SF Bay Area options for Cummins 6BTA's - a disjointed mixture of good service/information from Tom O'Connor at Cummins West to a jaw droppingly dumb approach from the guy Cummins West recommended as a good option to "a la carte" some parts of the my repower from. I diligently walked that guy through what I wanted/needed, and his first response to me was, "It's going to be spendy." Not to be remedial here, but if your opening line to me about me spending my money with you is "it's going to be spendy" instead of the "value" in me using your services, you're not getting my business. The point is Cummins is a mess in the San Francisco Bay Area. How they don't have an authorized Cummins distributor with a strong reputation in the main San Francisco Bay (instead of Vallejo Boatworks - with a solid reputation with sail boaters in an out of the way place) is a mystery to me. It has got to be one of the biggest strategic failures I've ever seen.

I don't own a boat needs repair; I have a member of my family that needs a transplant. Short of it being even remotely practical to send Shambala to Capt. Patrick, Bruce, or one of the places in NJ whose work I've seen pictures of, I'd rather do the work myself than turn it over to someone I don't trust or who has never worked on a B31. I may take twice as long and eventually spend twice as much as I should have, but I know I'll do it right.

Which brings me all the way back to Tony Athens. Pardon my French here, BUT THAT GUY F*CKING GETS IT! He's the only guy on the West Coast who responded in a timely manner with thorough answers and asked additional questions to make sure he understood what I was wanting before giving me his recommendations. He didn't lead with price; he led with why he felt his yard was a good fit for my business. In short, he's the one West Coast Cummins authorized dealer that made me feel like he's as invested from A to Z in doing the job as right as I am. How it is that Shambala is in the 2nd largest metropolitan area on the West Coast and I feel compelled to deal with Tony Athens who is in a small market north of Los Angeles (four hours south of me) is amazing to me. But again, Tony Athens gets it and to his credit he is going to be getting my business...

And Bill Fuller can tell me "I told you so" for the rest of his life. He's been telling me for years I should call Tony Athens when I'm ready to repower.

[JohnV8r]

BTW, that was halibut/striper fishing along the Alameda Rock Wall. It's my favorite mid-May to early June location as the halibut stack up in the depressions in the bottom to spawn and feed on spawning herring. The Rockwall in May/June, Berkeley Flats in June, and Angel Island/Seal Rock in July/August are my favorite "Bay" locations to fish halibut. The stripers end up mixed in with the halibut as an incidental catch.

My favorite all-time halibut story occurred at Angel Island. I had just gotten my then 5 year-old son, Burke, a custom built rod that was more appropriately sized for him. We went over to Angel Island to break it in. I had just pinned an anchovy on for him, dropped it down, and turned to get my own line in the water for maybe 15 seconds when he said rather calmly, "Dad, I think I've got a fish." Without turning around to look, I said, "No, it's just the bottom grabbing your lead." Burke replied, "NO DAD, I THINK I'VE GOT A FISH!"

I turn around and his brand new rod on the first cast is wildly pumping up and down with line screaming off the reel. Burke is hanging on for dear life and I finally tell him to put the rod on the gunnel and just start cranking the reel. About 5 minutes later, I see this big brown halibut start to emerge from the depths:



That's why Shambala is an irreplaceable member of our family. I have so many great memories like that...

[Harry Babb]

Wow......what a good story......


That young man is very fortunate to have a dad like you John.......keep up the good work......It will pay off in the years to come......trust me! ! ! !

And from there I think you should buy a IRM 220....or 221 or 222 or 223 or 224 or 225.25 or what ever it a it takes to keep this guy on the end of a fishing rod.......he is your buddy.....keep it that way.


hb

[JohnV8r]

Thanks Harry! I am a lucky guy to have two great boys!!!

[Rocky]

Yes John, sounds like you beat me to it, I too e-mailed Tony as he is on vacation not at shop- he e-mailed back writing "I suspect your talking about John with the Shambala. "
Yep, I said! Anyway, looks like 220's are just fine for our area with a trolling valve. Sounds like your a lot closer to getting your boat done then me, let me know if you need any help.
Great story BTW, that makes me wish we never gave up "VELOCE" the 31 my father had as there were unforgettable times on it too. You may have seen her from Sausalito out at times ?

[JohnV8r]

Rocky,

I believe I have seen Veloce a couple of times. I see "Legend" over in that area somewhat frequently. I believe Legend is berthed at the yacht club next to Sam's Anchor Café. There is an express that is berthed in Emeryville that I used to see halibut fishing quite a bit. Also, Cree Partridge that owns the Berkeley Marina owns a gas powered B31 named Karina. Cree is a really good guy, but I won't take Shambala over there anymore because of they allow guys to work on their own boats. That always leads to overspray and other mishaps that I don't have a lot of patience for.

I'll reach out to you soon.

Take care,

John