Question for 26 or 28 owners forepeak ceiling
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Question for 26 or 28 owners forepeak ceiling
I have a 26 FBSF. It is the Napier design and very similar in some respects to the 28's.
I am considering removing the shag carpet ceiling in the forepeak both to update it and to gain access to the underside of deck fittings to re-bed them. Below is a sketch of what I THINK the assembly looks like. I am pretty sure about all the elements EXCEPT the ceiling backer which I drew in green. That piece is pure speculation on my part at this time. I cannot actually see it, I can only imagine it must be sort of like what I have drawn by the placement of the other parts.
Has anyone been "in there" on their 26 or 28? Am I on the right track? What, if anything can you tell me about the backing behind the shag carpet? Does it in fact exist as I have drawn it? Or is there some other arragement? What is it made of? How is it attached? Does it end on the hull at its bottom edge or does it run all the way to the inside bunk / deck part?
Next: A complete repaint is needed on this boat, but not in the immediate budget. Is this job big enough that should wait until I am ready to repaint and at that time replace the rub rails, update the bow rails and so on? Or is it no big deal and I won't mind doing it again at re-paint time?
Any help or advice is much appreciated.
Peter
I am considering removing the shag carpet ceiling in the forepeak both to update it and to gain access to the underside of deck fittings to re-bed them. Below is a sketch of what I THINK the assembly looks like. I am pretty sure about all the elements EXCEPT the ceiling backer which I drew in green. That piece is pure speculation on my part at this time. I cannot actually see it, I can only imagine it must be sort of like what I have drawn by the placement of the other parts.
Has anyone been "in there" on their 26 or 28? Am I on the right track? What, if anything can you tell me about the backing behind the shag carpet? Does it in fact exist as I have drawn it? Or is there some other arragement? What is it made of? How is it attached? Does it end on the hull at its bottom edge or does it run all the way to the inside bunk / deck part?
Next: A complete repaint is needed on this boat, but not in the immediate budget. Is this job big enough that should wait until I am ready to repaint and at that time replace the rub rails, update the bow rails and so on? Or is it no big deal and I won't mind doing it again at re-paint time?
Any help or advice is much appreciated.
Peter
Last edited by Peter on Jun 7th, '13, 10:11, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Question for 26 or 28 owners fore peak ceiling
Yep, hard to get info on that boat. The 26 has nothing to do with the 25 and is more of a scaled down 28 that has very little
to do with the 28. I have only seen ones dated 1976 & 77. Personally I think its a great boat in many ways.
As far as the wooly, wooly I have looked at mine many times and have thought of ripping that krap out, buts whats behind
it? In my probing and guessing I think its just glued onto the fiberglass. I think it would get into a major project and what do
you replace it with and how? Actually the overhead is fiberglass with a pebble finish easily cleaned. Wouldn't the sides with
the wooly, wooly be more of a bulkhead? Heck unscrew those finishing strips and grab a corner of the krap with your pliers
and yank like hell.
to do with the 28. I have only seen ones dated 1976 & 77. Personally I think its a great boat in many ways.
As far as the wooly, wooly I have looked at mine many times and have thought of ripping that krap out, buts whats behind
it? In my probing and guessing I think its just glued onto the fiberglass. I think it would get into a major project and what do
you replace it with and how? Actually the overhead is fiberglass with a pebble finish easily cleaned. Wouldn't the sides with
the wooly, wooly be more of a bulkhead? Heck unscrew those finishing strips and grab a corner of the krap with your pliers
and yank like hell.
Re: Question for 26 or 28 owners fore peak ceiling
Chanse
LOL
At the moment that is not of much concern to me, but I do want to do a little work on the top weather deck at some point so it is better to figure out about the arrangement before I start that job.
Thanks for taking the time to reply,
Peter
LOL
Finding out what is back there very well may come to that, but if so I'd rather uncork those gremlins in the fall, not the spring. Who knows what I'll find?Heck unscrew those finishing strips and grab a corner of the krap with your pliers
and yank like hell.
At first I thought so too, but from inside the electrical locker it is possible to contort your hand up and forward to find the void I drew behind the top edge of the inner fiberglass liner and the hull. So at least at that point and directly below it the carpet isn't glued directly to the hull. Hence my supposition (question) that there is some sort of backer panel. Of course I can't get my hand or any tools in there far enough to see/ feel what the panel might be.buts whats behind it? In my probing and guessing I think its just glued onto the fiberglass.
You can see a bit of this piece's construction from inside the electrical locker up under the helm. A notch was cut out in mine at this spot to mount the instrument nacelle. Here you can see marine plywood sandwiched between two layers of fiberglass about 1/4 inch each . I'd guess from the way it flexes while cleaning the area up over the bunks it isn't cored there. It wouldn't need to be. But maybe it is. I don't really know. The overall dimension outside surface to inside surface at the forward hatch suggests that the liner is not anywhere near the outer weather deck at that point. More mysterious voids?Actually the overhead is fiberglass with a pebble finish
At the moment that is not of much concern to me, but I do want to do a little work on the top weather deck at some point so it is better to figure out about the arrangement before I start that job.
Thanks for taking the time to reply,
Peter
- Skipper Dick
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Re: Question for 26 or 28 owners fore peak ceiling
Peter,
I have an 83 28 FBC and I replaced all of the carpet a few years back. I ripped out the old and found that it was glued down. I cleaned up the glue and used the old carpet as a pattern and put back a nylon carpet. It was perfect and looks great. I did not replace the carpet on that area below the bunks and alongside the walls above the deck because it did not look too bad. I used a carpet glue and it set up in just a short time. It was about a 2 hour job.
Dick
I have an 83 28 FBC and I replaced all of the carpet a few years back. I ripped out the old and found that it was glued down. I cleaned up the glue and used the old carpet as a pattern and put back a nylon carpet. It was perfect and looks great. I did not replace the carpet on that area below the bunks and alongside the walls above the deck because it did not look too bad. I used a carpet glue and it set up in just a short time. It was about a 2 hour job.
Dick
1983 Bertram 28 FBC w/300 Merc Horizon
Re: Question for 26 or 28 owners fore peak ceiling
After some more poking and prodding here is my revised sketch of what I am pretty sure I will find
This is offered with the caveat that I have not yet taken anything apart so I am not certain:
Note the change from the last drawing: that the void near the rail is created by a short piece of "ceiling backer" mounted vertically. It would appear that this part is tabbed to the hull all along its lower edge and probably screwed somehow to the overhead liner piece at the top. It is about 7 or 8 inches high aft and less forward. This not only looks like what I have, it also would be a fairly straight forward means of assembling these pieces which afforded some adjustment/flexibility to allow for manufacturing tolerences and so on.
This overall design would be in keeping with the Napier design of the entire boat. It was originally built in modules. The hull / the cockpit deck / the weather deck / the house / the fly bridge / the bulkead or canvas or half bulkhead at the back of the house / the galley module / and so on. You picked your desired configuration from a menu and they put it together for you using the appropriate parts.
My experience in working on this boat tells me that they left a great deal of room for manufacturing variations and tolerencing. So the overhead module; the weather deck module; and the hull module would not have been tight fits one to the other. Instead some allowance would have been made for adjustment and placement during assembly.
Note that additionally the continuous tabbing along the botom edge of the backer makes a water channel that would (does) re-direct any deck hardware/ hand rail/ rub rail leaks aft and away from the bunks and forepeak keeping the bunks cozy and dry and the forepeak less musty and moldy. Was this benefit their intention or just a happy accident? Probably an unexpected consequence because the backer ends at the chain locker bulkhead forward and the electrical locker bulkhead aft and there is no specific provision for any leaking water to go anywhere special at these points. My guess is Bertram intended to build these boats to not leak at all, period.
Now I'm guessing here: But I'd suppose during manufacture you first put in the bulkheads. Then put down the overhead piece and get it more or less where you wanted it. Then you put in the ceiling backer panels fitting them between the overhead module and the hull. Once placed you screw them in at the top to hold them where they need to be and then tab them into the hull at the bottom.
This is clever design. Recall that this pre-dates CAD and since it is a boat nothing is straight or square. Everything is curved and tapered and so forth. So designing this stuff so that it fits together properly would have been a pretty intense three dimensional excercise. Bertram Yachts, Napier, and his team must have spent a good deal of thinking figuring out how to create the design, produce the tooling, and develop assembly techniques for all these big molded parts so that they would fit together. And that would have included how to allow for the above mentioned tolerencing and manufacturing variations... but doing so in a way that was efficient to build and assemble. Not a lot of place-and-scribe; test fit and retry.
I do not know how many B26's Bertram built, but certainly there are more 25's around. I always assumed that the 26 was a "value engineered" 25. One where they took away the tumble home and curved transom and so on to avoid using a two piece mold. And at the same time fixed the head room problem by putting a curb in the weather deck and adding a longer, taller house. But all this was a trade off of a certain sort of classic beauty for a more slab-sided utilitarian look. Now I also see how much effort was put into the stuff we don't see from the outside: the modular production concept,tooling, and technique, and I have to offer my admiration for thier efforts.
I wonder if they ever recouped thier engineering and design costs?
Meantime I probably will not go after this project this spring.
I am thinking about tearing out the carpet in the fall. Then cutting long-ish slots into the backer to gain access to the back sides of the hardware. I would re-apply some sort of ceiling (I don't know what yet) leaving these holes open. Then I would then finish them by putting in some sort of little shelf pocket. It would have an inside liner so you don't look straight at the outer hull or hardware when you look in there and it would flange-mount around the edge of the access hole to finish the edges of the ceiling. The bottom of the shelf could extend (cantalever) into the interior space an inch or two without getting in the way of using the bunks. This would trim out the access hole and still leave me an easy way to get at the rail hardware in the future while preserving the original integrity of the design.
Those are my thoughts for now. If anyone beats me to the project on their boat, or has already been-there done-that, I'd like to hear fom them....
Peter
This is offered with the caveat that I have not yet taken anything apart so I am not certain:
Note the change from the last drawing: that the void near the rail is created by a short piece of "ceiling backer" mounted vertically. It would appear that this part is tabbed to the hull all along its lower edge and probably screwed somehow to the overhead liner piece at the top. It is about 7 or 8 inches high aft and less forward. This not only looks like what I have, it also would be a fairly straight forward means of assembling these pieces which afforded some adjustment/flexibility to allow for manufacturing tolerences and so on.
This overall design would be in keeping with the Napier design of the entire boat. It was originally built in modules. The hull / the cockpit deck / the weather deck / the house / the fly bridge / the bulkead or canvas or half bulkhead at the back of the house / the galley module / and so on. You picked your desired configuration from a menu and they put it together for you using the appropriate parts.
My experience in working on this boat tells me that they left a great deal of room for manufacturing variations and tolerencing. So the overhead module; the weather deck module; and the hull module would not have been tight fits one to the other. Instead some allowance would have been made for adjustment and placement during assembly.
Note that additionally the continuous tabbing along the botom edge of the backer makes a water channel that would (does) re-direct any deck hardware/ hand rail/ rub rail leaks aft and away from the bunks and forepeak keeping the bunks cozy and dry and the forepeak less musty and moldy. Was this benefit their intention or just a happy accident? Probably an unexpected consequence because the backer ends at the chain locker bulkhead forward and the electrical locker bulkhead aft and there is no specific provision for any leaking water to go anywhere special at these points. My guess is Bertram intended to build these boats to not leak at all, period.
Now I'm guessing here: But I'd suppose during manufacture you first put in the bulkheads. Then put down the overhead piece and get it more or less where you wanted it. Then you put in the ceiling backer panels fitting them between the overhead module and the hull. Once placed you screw them in at the top to hold them where they need to be and then tab them into the hull at the bottom.
This is clever design. Recall that this pre-dates CAD and since it is a boat nothing is straight or square. Everything is curved and tapered and so forth. So designing this stuff so that it fits together properly would have been a pretty intense three dimensional excercise. Bertram Yachts, Napier, and his team must have spent a good deal of thinking figuring out how to create the design, produce the tooling, and develop assembly techniques for all these big molded parts so that they would fit together. And that would have included how to allow for the above mentioned tolerencing and manufacturing variations... but doing so in a way that was efficient to build and assemble. Not a lot of place-and-scribe; test fit and retry.
I do not know how many B26's Bertram built, but certainly there are more 25's around. I always assumed that the 26 was a "value engineered" 25. One where they took away the tumble home and curved transom and so on to avoid using a two piece mold. And at the same time fixed the head room problem by putting a curb in the weather deck and adding a longer, taller house. But all this was a trade off of a certain sort of classic beauty for a more slab-sided utilitarian look. Now I also see how much effort was put into the stuff we don't see from the outside: the modular production concept,tooling, and technique, and I have to offer my admiration for thier efforts.
I wonder if they ever recouped thier engineering and design costs?
Meantime I probably will not go after this project this spring.
I am thinking about tearing out the carpet in the fall. Then cutting long-ish slots into the backer to gain access to the back sides of the hardware. I would re-apply some sort of ceiling (I don't know what yet) leaving these holes open. Then I would then finish them by putting in some sort of little shelf pocket. It would have an inside liner so you don't look straight at the outer hull or hardware when you look in there and it would flange-mount around the edge of the access hole to finish the edges of the ceiling. The bottom of the shelf could extend (cantalever) into the interior space an inch or two without getting in the way of using the bunks. This would trim out the access hole and still leave me an easy way to get at the rail hardware in the future while preserving the original integrity of the design.
Those are my thoughts for now. If anyone beats me to the project on their boat, or has already been-there done-that, I'd like to hear fom them....
Peter
Re: Question for 26 or 28 owners forepeak ceiling
Peter: I have an '85 B28. I have looked at this job and will do it eventually. The "backer" piece which fills the gap between the ceilng liner and hull on my boat is 1/4" plywood which appears to be held in place only by the screws through the trim piece at the top. It is not tabbed to the hull. There really is not very much to it. I started to take it apart a few years ago to try and get to a stanchion base and it seemed like the whole thing was going to come out in pieces, so I stopped before I made a mess. If you were ready to do the job, it wouldn't take long to get everything out of there and you could probably come up with somethng that could be set up for easy removal for access to the stanchion base bolts. Good luck and I'll be looking for the posts and pictures on how you end up doing it. Leigh
- Pete Fallon
- Senior Member
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Re: Question for 26 or 28 owners forepeak ceiling
Leigh,
Why don't you go to Harbor Freight or similar store and get one of those small inspection cameras, they are battery operated and have a 3' probe with a light on the end. I find it very useful to have, especially when trying to see behind and between confined spaces. I use mine on almost every survey that I do, they are about a $100.00 with carrying case. Makes looking at things that you just can't get to a lot easier.
The last 26 I surveyed had that same awful carpet material, I'm sure it was just glued to the inside of the hull, no backer board. Good luck,
Pete Fallon
Why don't you go to Harbor Freight or similar store and get one of those small inspection cameras, they are battery operated and have a 3' probe with a light on the end. I find it very useful to have, especially when trying to see behind and between confined spaces. I use mine on almost every survey that I do, they are about a $100.00 with carrying case. Makes looking at things that you just can't get to a lot easier.
The last 26 I surveyed had that same awful carpet material, I'm sure it was just glued to the inside of the hull, no backer board. Good luck,
Pete Fallon
1961 Express Vizcaya Hull 186 12-13-61
Re: Question for 26 or 28 owners forepeak ceiling
Recently pulled the "spongy padding" off some of my side walls of my Cobia 220.... Found a nice 2-3 inch fold of glass for no reason sticking up between the deck and hull joint. No reason for it and nothing to connect to... Just a mess for me to grind down and re-glass smooth. Hope you do better.
Re: Question for 26 or 28 owners forepeak ceiling
Thanks for the input.
Leigh, good to know that my mystery piece is just a bit of ply. No biggie.
Kurt, Stuff like that happens every job I have ever done on any boat. I just shake my head and say to myself "It's a friggin boat. Of course it isn't going to be 100% simple."
Pete, Good to know the HF remote inspection camera works well.......... because I just ordered one.
They are on sale at the moment AND if you google for "Harbor Freight Coupons" you can get a code for an additional 20% off any item.
Inspection camera
http://www.harborfreight.com/digital-in ... 67979.html
Coupon
http://promocodesforyou.com/index.php?i ... 4AodTiMAKA
Next Question:
What are people using to replace the carpet?
Although I like the idea of some sort of wood ceiling for its beauty, I really don't spend a lot of time in my forepeak. It isnt like a larger boat where I am spending a lot of nights aboard. So it is hard to justify the expense and effort to install and finish fine hardwoods.
Although it was butt ugly the shag carpet had some redeeming qualities such as insulation, easy to install, pretty straightforward to clean, conforms to the curves, soft to bump up against when you roll over in a tight bunk, and so on.... It was just butt ugly and now it's not JUST butt ugly..... it's old and tired butt ugly.
I'm curious to hear what solutions people have come up with.
Peter
Leigh, good to know that my mystery piece is just a bit of ply. No biggie.
Kurt, Stuff like that happens every job I have ever done on any boat. I just shake my head and say to myself "It's a friggin boat. Of course it isn't going to be 100% simple."
Pete, Good to know the HF remote inspection camera works well.......... because I just ordered one.
They are on sale at the moment AND if you google for "Harbor Freight Coupons" you can get a code for an additional 20% off any item.
Inspection camera
http://www.harborfreight.com/digital-in ... 67979.html
Coupon
http://promocodesforyou.com/index.php?i ... 4AodTiMAKA
Next Question:
What are people using to replace the carpet?
Although I like the idea of some sort of wood ceiling for its beauty, I really don't spend a lot of time in my forepeak. It isnt like a larger boat where I am spending a lot of nights aboard. So it is hard to justify the expense and effort to install and finish fine hardwoods.
Although it was butt ugly the shag carpet had some redeeming qualities such as insulation, easy to install, pretty straightforward to clean, conforms to the curves, soft to bump up against when you roll over in a tight bunk, and so on.... It was just butt ugly and now it's not JUST butt ugly..... it's old and tired butt ugly.
I'm curious to hear what solutions people have come up with.
Peter
Re: Question for 26 or 28 owners forepeak ceiling
My HF inspection camera just arrived and I am impressed for the price.
Comes in its own case with about a 3 foot fiberoptic cable/camera. Image quality is pretty good. LED lights on camera end with 4 or 5 brightness levels. You can rotate the displayed image so it isn't in some strange orientation. You get a video cable if you want to route the image to a bigger TV or screen. It even comes with a little magnetic pick up that attaches to the end; a small hook and a little mirror too. The little mirror is the only part that looks uselss.
If you work on boats, cars, or homes you should treat yourself to this modest investment in what promises to be a useful tool.
Peter
Comes in its own case with about a 3 foot fiberoptic cable/camera. Image quality is pretty good. LED lights on camera end with 4 or 5 brightness levels. You can rotate the displayed image so it isn't in some strange orientation. You get a video cable if you want to route the image to a bigger TV or screen. It even comes with a little magnetic pick up that attaches to the end; a small hook and a little mirror too. The little mirror is the only part that looks uselss.
If you work on boats, cars, or homes you should treat yourself to this modest investment in what promises to be a useful tool.
Peter
Re: Question for 26 or 28 owners forepeak ceiling
I don't know how little you paid, but I have a Milwakee one that uses the same 18 volt lithium battery as my little drill, the mini impact, a grinder, sawzall and a myriad of other little power tools. Having the compatible batteries is really nice and the tool works well. The inspection camera is an incredibly useful tool especially since the reading vision has diminished somewhat and I find it hard to read small part numbers in poor light and sometimes my phone won't fit to take a picture, which is my first trick.
Re: Question for 26 or 28 owners forepeak ceiling
The camera from HF with the coupon was about $64.
A couple of bucks to ship it so call it $70.
I honestly didn't expect much, but it works very well.
I like that it comes with a case. Any tools wich use thier own attachments that include a case to keep everything together is a bonus in my mind.
Can't be beat for the price.
If it only solves one difficult/frustrating access problem it will pay for itself by saving me its entire cost in one bar bill! (I don't like to drink alone and round of good drinks cost big bucks nowadays!)
Uses 4 AA batteries (come with it,) but I have those around all the time anyway.
I never considered using it for reading part numbers... Pretty good idea.
Peter
A couple of bucks to ship it so call it $70.
I honestly didn't expect much, but it works very well.
I like that it comes with a case. Any tools wich use thier own attachments that include a case to keep everything together is a bonus in my mind.
Can't be beat for the price.
If it only solves one difficult/frustrating access problem it will pay for itself by saving me its entire cost in one bar bill! (I don't like to drink alone and round of good drinks cost big bucks nowadays!)
Uses 4 AA batteries (come with it,) but I have those around all the time anyway.
I never considered using it for reading part numbers... Pretty good idea.
Peter
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Re: Question for 26 or 28 owners forepeak ceiling
Does anyone have an idea where one can find the 1" round fore peak ceiling caps/covers that cover bridge fasteners?
- Skipper Dick
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Re: Question for 26 or 28 owners forepeak ceiling
Capt. Rex.
When I was looking for them I found them on line. They were gray or black, but I spray painted them white. It has been a few years or so back and I don't remember where I got them, but I do remember that I didn't have much trouble finding them. I think they are about 1 inch in diameter as you stated.
Good luck
When I was looking for them I found them on line. They were gray or black, but I spray painted them white. It has been a few years or so back and I don't remember where I got them, but I do remember that I didn't have much trouble finding them. I think they are about 1 inch in diameter as you stated.
Good luck
1983 Bertram 28 FBC w/300 Merc Horizon
- CaptPatrick
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Re: Question for 26 or 28 owners forepeak ceiling
Br,
Patrick
Molon labe
Patrick
Molon labe
Re: Question for 26 or 28 owners forepeak ceiling
My local Ace hardware has them in black, white and tan. I just saw them there yesterday in the fastener section.
Rawleigh
1966 FBC 31
1966 FBC 31
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Re: Question for 26 or 28 owners forepeak ceiling
As usual- you all rock! Will try ACE to if I can actually see them before purchasing... Thx
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