Seiously trying to consider which direction to go within the next year or two. This year, due to finances is a no brainer, and I am just going to rebuild what needs to be fixed, check the other engine to make sure it wasn't poisoned with the goo, and replace the gas tank. Down the road the decision whether to go diesel or opt for the 8.1 MPI gas motors will weigh on my mind. I saw a bahia mar for sale at yachtworld with 8.1 Horizon motors, 370hp, that the owner claimed runs 20kts cruise with a 14gph total burn. The boat also could cruise at 25kts and 35kts wot. I also saw one with 300 cummins that got 30kt cruise at 2mpg or roughly 15gph. I know that the diesels are vastly more econimical and faster to run, but are also way more expensive at the beginning.
I remember reading that someone had gone the 8.1 route and I was curious as to what the real world performance and economy numbers were like.
Question about 8.1 gassers
Moderators: CaptPatrick, mike ohlstein, Bruce
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Tony Meola
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6940
- Joined: Jun 29th, '06, 21:24
- Location: Hillsdale, New Jersey
- Contact:
Harv
I asked my marina for a price on mercs at around 350 hp with transmissions he told me his price was around 14,000 a piece. I check on the rebuilt cummins and they said that would be around 20,000 a piece with transmissions. By the time you get done doing everything you have to do even with gas, the rebuilt cummins may not be that far out of line price wise. I find it hard to believe any gas engine that size would give you 14 gph burn rate in our boats. If they are getting that, I would really be interested. I am seriously thinking about not going in this year and I will either repalce the tank or repower. My starboard engine is giving me some problems but its not the black goo, I think age is finally catching up with them. Tony Meola
I asked my marina for a price on mercs at around 350 hp with transmissions he told me his price was around 14,000 a piece. I check on the rebuilt cummins and they said that would be around 20,000 a piece with transmissions. By the time you get done doing everything you have to do even with gas, the rebuilt cummins may not be that far out of line price wise. I find it hard to believe any gas engine that size would give you 14 gph burn rate in our boats. If they are getting that, I would really be interested. I am seriously thinking about not going in this year and I will either repalce the tank or repower. My starboard engine is giving me some problems but its not the black goo, I think age is finally catching up with them. Tony Meola
Tony,
I found a guy in Fla, through ebay that does GM marine remanufacturing. He has complete 454 350hp motors, for $4000. All internal parts are brand new. All you have to do is add the alternator, raw water pump and brackets plus I think he mentioned the flywheel and bell housing off the old motors then drop her in. Also does higher hp engines as well. Then you repack your old motor in the crate and send him back the core.
I also like the idea of remanned cummins especially since I may have a connection through my job with the cummins distributor in the Bronx,NY. However, even with a connection, we're still looking at 12 to 20k more to go diesel.
When I spoke to the Crusader rep at the NY show, he told me that the 425hp 8.1 motors were about 10% less efficient than deisels. He said the numbers are achieved through increased torque, spinning a bigger wheel slower thus saving on your fuel burn. Also, no carbs, computer controlled, and more efficient use of the fuel going through the motors.
I found a guy in Fla, through ebay that does GM marine remanufacturing. He has complete 454 350hp motors, for $4000. All internal parts are brand new. All you have to do is add the alternator, raw water pump and brackets plus I think he mentioned the flywheel and bell housing off the old motors then drop her in. Also does higher hp engines as well. Then you repack your old motor in the crate and send him back the core.
I also like the idea of remanned cummins especially since I may have a connection through my job with the cummins distributor in the Bronx,NY. However, even with a connection, we're still looking at 12 to 20k more to go diesel.
When I spoke to the Crusader rep at the NY show, he told me that the 425hp 8.1 motors were about 10% less efficient than deisels. He said the numbers are achieved through increased torque, spinning a bigger wheel slower thus saving on your fuel burn. Also, no carbs, computer controlled, and more efficient use of the fuel going through the motors.
Harv
Harv...
I am not sure since I personally haven't searched myself, but I have read that the reman Cummins 6Bs are not always available, and when they are their pricing sometimes is marked up by some dealers. I suppose, since they are a good replacement for 454s, quite a few guys are repowering with them, and some dealers take advantage of the demand. It is possible also I suppose that some dealers justify the markups by saying the engines are scarce.
FYI.. I have the Cummins Atlantic price list for the reman line, which is valid until Jan 30 only.. the brochure says they are in inventory and ready for immediate delivery, so you can believe whatever info you choose..
4BT 3.9 155 HP = $10,100
6BT 5.9 220 HP = $11,700
6BT 5.9 330 HP = $16,100
6BT 5.9 370 HP = $17,200
Above are complete with wiring harness, gauge panels, heat exchangers, wet exhaust, vibration isolators, and flywheel and housing. Transmissions are not included. Std warranty is 2 years/2,000 hours, extended warrantees are available. No cores are required.
If you want I can fax the price list to you. Email me at "IRGuy@aol.com" and we can exchange numbers.
I am not sure since I personally haven't searched myself, but I have read that the reman Cummins 6Bs are not always available, and when they are their pricing sometimes is marked up by some dealers. I suppose, since they are a good replacement for 454s, quite a few guys are repowering with them, and some dealers take advantage of the demand. It is possible also I suppose that some dealers justify the markups by saying the engines are scarce.
FYI.. I have the Cummins Atlantic price list for the reman line, which is valid until Jan 30 only.. the brochure says they are in inventory and ready for immediate delivery, so you can believe whatever info you choose..
4BT 3.9 155 HP = $10,100
6BT 5.9 220 HP = $11,700
6BT 5.9 330 HP = $16,100
6BT 5.9 370 HP = $17,200
Above are complete with wiring harness, gauge panels, heat exchangers, wet exhaust, vibration isolators, and flywheel and housing. Transmissions are not included. Std warranty is 2 years/2,000 hours, extended warrantees are available. No cores are required.
If you want I can fax the price list to you. Email me at "IRGuy@aol.com" and we can exchange numbers.
Harv-
The 8.1/496s are great motors. I fished on my friend's 31 Tiara with 8.1 Crusaders alot. They've run great and have never been down.
The 31 Tiara is somewhat comparable to our boats in size--I think its a little heavier and has about 2' more beam. He gets about .9 mpg at cruise of about 24 knots. With the 8.1s, your Bahia would be a couple knots quicker, and maybe a little more fuel efficient, but not much from what I've seen. His boat, even with a 245 gallon tank, lacked range.
Also, from what I remember when I looked at the 8.1s, the 425 hp version is a waste in our boats. The extra hp comes from higher in the rpm range--hp/torque is about the same in the cruise rpm range.
I'm sure Bruce can offer some better advice here, but as far as buying "reman'd" 454s, be careful. I've talked to a couple mechanics around here who said they'd only use mercruiser factory remans. They've had failures with the "other" brand remans, and the warranty money for R&R (something like $400), doesn't come close to covering their costs--so they either charge the customer labor when the motor goes up after a few hours, or eat the labor costs themselves.
You're in NY, find a good speed shop and talk to them. I've found that those guys, if they're good, know basic 350s and 454s (weaknesses and strengths) as well as anybody.
For now, I'm hoping my 454s run forever, because I don't know what I'd do--but I'm leaning towards diesels for range and resale....
John F.
The 8.1/496s are great motors. I fished on my friend's 31 Tiara with 8.1 Crusaders alot. They've run great and have never been down.
The 31 Tiara is somewhat comparable to our boats in size--I think its a little heavier and has about 2' more beam. He gets about .9 mpg at cruise of about 24 knots. With the 8.1s, your Bahia would be a couple knots quicker, and maybe a little more fuel efficient, but not much from what I've seen. His boat, even with a 245 gallon tank, lacked range.
Also, from what I remember when I looked at the 8.1s, the 425 hp version is a waste in our boats. The extra hp comes from higher in the rpm range--hp/torque is about the same in the cruise rpm range.
I'm sure Bruce can offer some better advice here, but as far as buying "reman'd" 454s, be careful. I've talked to a couple mechanics around here who said they'd only use mercruiser factory remans. They've had failures with the "other" brand remans, and the warranty money for R&R (something like $400), doesn't come close to covering their costs--so they either charge the customer labor when the motor goes up after a few hours, or eat the labor costs themselves.
You're in NY, find a good speed shop and talk to them. I've found that those guys, if they're good, know basic 350s and 454s (weaknesses and strengths) as well as anybody.
For now, I'm hoping my 454s run forever, because I don't know what I'd do--but I'm leaning towards diesels for range and resale....
John F.
The weak point in the 454 is in the head cooling passages. They are thin near the valve area and salt water will eat them thru.
If you get a reman 454, you don't know wheather it was a fresh or salt water motor to start and may be dealing with eroded cooling jackets.
I quit dealing in buying reman gas engines along time ago due to the fact that no matter who I bought from, they didn't last.
Everyone says they do a good job and replaces a bunch of parts but the last pair of remans I put in 10 years ago I bore scoped the cylinders. Both engines were bored .40 over as the stamp in the piston showed but the cylinder walls in numerous areas still showed gouges.
Very poor job.
If your starting off with a pair of fwd cooled 454's, talk to the local speed shop guys about local rebuilders. I had very few problems with 454 lower ends, chances are if your only trying to get another year or two out of em you may not need lower work.
As far as the 8.1 numbers go look at the cruise speed vs the fuel flow, 20kts@14gph with a top engine of 35knts.
14 is not bad if your doing 26 knots but 20 is slow. Find out what he burns at more the mid range.
Compare at apples to apples. Most 300hp diesels @ 20 knots will burn less than 10 gph.
BTW the term cruise speed can be anything along the rpm range, but really should be referred to as the max sustained rpm the engine maker suggests.
Having been through this scenario so many times, including another one this past Thursday, don't make the financial your #1 decision factor on a repower.
Make your use of boat the #1 decision.
1. Do I go out on long trips where fuel conservation/speed is important?
2. Do I just puddle around a couple of weekends a month if that?
3. If I were to put a better speed vs mileage engine in(diesel) would I really take those long or longer trips or am I just wishful thinking?
4. Do I want to lift my engine boxes and have the bragging rights to a custome diesel refit on the dock? ( don't laugh, it does happen)
Once you make the decision on how you will really or are currently using the boat, look at the economic factors of fuel burn, diesel vs gas.
Then honestly come up with a budget you can afford.
Now some have no money constraints. Great.
Most do.
Does that budget meet the requirements for the following:
1. Fixing current gas.
2. Putting in new gas.
3. Repowering with used diesels, many different brands.
4. Repowering with reman diesels.
5. Repowering with new diesels.
Ask the repower people if you can do some of the grunt work to save money, if you want to.
My current repower got some extras at no addtional cost due to the willingness of the owner to run around for stuff and make phone calls that would otherwise be wasted time for me.
I won't do it all the time, but this owner is a really nice guy who knows quite a bit about boats and repairs and has the ability to do quite a bit of stuff himself.
Some shops don't want the owner around at all.
This is just how I have approched the repower market.
I lose about 20% of inquiries cause when I ask them how they use the boat, the cost of a diesel refit just don't make sense.
But that's okay cause that's my business and someone who comes to me for advice deserves to hear it on a straight forward and honest basis.
On the resell side down here what I am starting to see cause of our economic drop in the boating market is that diesel 30' range boat prices are starting to drop quite a bit, but those that have gas boats who have to sell to step up to a diesel can't sell them cause there is a glut on the market and are considering diesel upgrades they normally would not consider.
Had 3 inquiries last week.
What ever you decide don't make the mistake of dumping good money into bad just to get the boat going.
If a diesel refit is atainable a couple years down the road, don't toss 10k into getting the old gassers repaired.
Toss it into a jar and put it toward the refit cost and fish with some buddied for a few seasons.
If you get a reman 454, you don't know wheather it was a fresh or salt water motor to start and may be dealing with eroded cooling jackets.
I quit dealing in buying reman gas engines along time ago due to the fact that no matter who I bought from, they didn't last.
Everyone says they do a good job and replaces a bunch of parts but the last pair of remans I put in 10 years ago I bore scoped the cylinders. Both engines were bored .40 over as the stamp in the piston showed but the cylinder walls in numerous areas still showed gouges.
Very poor job.
If your starting off with a pair of fwd cooled 454's, talk to the local speed shop guys about local rebuilders. I had very few problems with 454 lower ends, chances are if your only trying to get another year or two out of em you may not need lower work.
As far as the 8.1 numbers go look at the cruise speed vs the fuel flow, 20kts@14gph with a top engine of 35knts.
14 is not bad if your doing 26 knots but 20 is slow. Find out what he burns at more the mid range.
Compare at apples to apples. Most 300hp diesels @ 20 knots will burn less than 10 gph.
BTW the term cruise speed can be anything along the rpm range, but really should be referred to as the max sustained rpm the engine maker suggests.
Having been through this scenario so many times, including another one this past Thursday, don't make the financial your #1 decision factor on a repower.
Make your use of boat the #1 decision.
1. Do I go out on long trips where fuel conservation/speed is important?
2. Do I just puddle around a couple of weekends a month if that?
3. If I were to put a better speed vs mileage engine in(diesel) would I really take those long or longer trips or am I just wishful thinking?
4. Do I want to lift my engine boxes and have the bragging rights to a custome diesel refit on the dock? ( don't laugh, it does happen)
Once you make the decision on how you will really or are currently using the boat, look at the economic factors of fuel burn, diesel vs gas.
Then honestly come up with a budget you can afford.
Now some have no money constraints. Great.
Most do.
Does that budget meet the requirements for the following:
1. Fixing current gas.
2. Putting in new gas.
3. Repowering with used diesels, many different brands.
4. Repowering with reman diesels.
5. Repowering with new diesels.
Ask the repower people if you can do some of the grunt work to save money, if you want to.
My current repower got some extras at no addtional cost due to the willingness of the owner to run around for stuff and make phone calls that would otherwise be wasted time for me.
I won't do it all the time, but this owner is a really nice guy who knows quite a bit about boats and repairs and has the ability to do quite a bit of stuff himself.
Some shops don't want the owner around at all.
This is just how I have approched the repower market.
I lose about 20% of inquiries cause when I ask them how they use the boat, the cost of a diesel refit just don't make sense.
But that's okay cause that's my business and someone who comes to me for advice deserves to hear it on a straight forward and honest basis.
On the resell side down here what I am starting to see cause of our economic drop in the boating market is that diesel 30' range boat prices are starting to drop quite a bit, but those that have gas boats who have to sell to step up to a diesel can't sell them cause there is a glut on the market and are considering diesel upgrades they normally would not consider.
Had 3 inquiries last week.
What ever you decide don't make the mistake of dumping good money into bad just to get the boat going.
If a diesel refit is atainable a couple years down the road, don't toss 10k into getting the old gassers repaired.
Toss it into a jar and put it toward the refit cost and fish with some buddied for a few seasons.
repower
Harv, I have never owned a gas powered inboard boat till I bought the lateset ( 31 Tiara) Used it two years and repowered with tamd 41p/ zf630 gears..Paid 10 grand for the motors( came out of a 1999 carolina classic) One was overheated and scuffed one piston..wet liner engine ,replaced one hole and away I went. Motors had 400 hrs when I bought them. Sold the crusaders with transmissions for 5 grand..Took the volvos up to McDonnel diesel in Ct. ( one of the best volvo techs in the US) one at a time in the back of my P/U. Spent 3 grand there..he went thru both motors with a fine tooth comb. Spent another 2 grand on hoses, racors, new batt cables, awlgrip etc.. I did all of the work, at least 200 hrs of my own time. So for around 10 grand counting the sale of the crusaders its done. Now I burn 12/14 gal hr., was burning 24/27 gal per hour with the 454s. Cruise was 21 knots at 3000/3050 with the big blocks . Cruise is now 21/23 at 3200/3300 with the diesels. The boat is faster, burns half the fuel, more room to move around in engine room and is not a floating time bomb. I got sucked into thinking a gas inboard boat would be ok scince I dont run a charter boat anymore. People said you are not putting the hours on you dont charter anymore,you dont need diesels..to that I say B.S. Take you time look around and find a low hour pair of cummins, volvo..whatever. I will never buy a gas powered inboard boat again. And I dont care if gas goes up or down. Diesel is better.
Ok guys, to answer some questions here.
First off, when confronted with the situation, I first contacted my auto mechanic, who is also a Chevy wizard and has his own machine shop. He offered to do both engines for $10k....mind you this is a discounted price since he is also my friend of 35 years. This included all new internal parts, bore out to 462 cubic inches, fine tune the heads, change the cam specs, intake manifold and carbs, and balance both motors. When I told the owner/mechanic of my yard to yank both motors and I would have them done, he got very annoyed and told me, if I want someone else to rebuid my motors, I can also find a new yard to stay at. He offered to tear them down, let my guy do all the machine work and specs and then he would reassemble the motors to those specs, and still stay inside the $10k pricing. This lead me to concerns of who would stand behind the motors should a problem arise. My guy told me that if something happened 5 years from now, he wasn't going anywhere, but the yard couldn't give me an asnwer. That is the reason I decided to let the yard just do as simple of a repair as is necessary to get through the next year or two.
Now, with the gas motors, my range is limited. It's a long ride to the canyon from Freeport and I presently don't have the range. Even if all my gas tanks were in good order, I have the main fiberglass for 172 gals, and 3 corroded aluminum tanks that would have given me an additional 135 gals, just under the helm ahead of the engines....would be a costly proposition per trip. Also, I have taken the endeavor to charter the boat and would appreciate the added speed, reliability, and safety of diesels. If I had more speed and range, longer trips would be the norm instead of the exception. Basically I am limited to at most 55 miles offshore with a very small margin (maybe 10 mile) safety factor. Most of my offshore trips so far have not gone over 45 -50 miles.
Right now my financial constraints limit me to fixing what I have and replacing the fiberglass tank. I am also in the position to have my 26footer reassembled and ready to go early in the season if need be. Also, splashing the smaller boat might also enable me to sell her. By the way, the 26 has canyon range. I figure with my 2 injury settlements, the sale of my 26 and the sale of the gas motors, I could indeed afford diesels 2 or 3 years down the road.
I have one other question regarding my gassers. I have heard of guys switching the intakes and carbs to the Edelbrock Performer mainifold and a 650cfm Edelbrock marine 4barrel carb. I understand the manifold is good for added torque throughout the entire rpm range of these motors with an increase of about 10 to 15 hp, but I don't know how much their carbs would add or if that is the total for the manifold and carb package. If anyone has any real world, hands on information on this I would greatly appreciate the info.
First off, when confronted with the situation, I first contacted my auto mechanic, who is also a Chevy wizard and has his own machine shop. He offered to do both engines for $10k....mind you this is a discounted price since he is also my friend of 35 years. This included all new internal parts, bore out to 462 cubic inches, fine tune the heads, change the cam specs, intake manifold and carbs, and balance both motors. When I told the owner/mechanic of my yard to yank both motors and I would have them done, he got very annoyed and told me, if I want someone else to rebuid my motors, I can also find a new yard to stay at. He offered to tear them down, let my guy do all the machine work and specs and then he would reassemble the motors to those specs, and still stay inside the $10k pricing. This lead me to concerns of who would stand behind the motors should a problem arise. My guy told me that if something happened 5 years from now, he wasn't going anywhere, but the yard couldn't give me an asnwer. That is the reason I decided to let the yard just do as simple of a repair as is necessary to get through the next year or two.
Now, with the gas motors, my range is limited. It's a long ride to the canyon from Freeport and I presently don't have the range. Even if all my gas tanks were in good order, I have the main fiberglass for 172 gals, and 3 corroded aluminum tanks that would have given me an additional 135 gals, just under the helm ahead of the engines....would be a costly proposition per trip. Also, I have taken the endeavor to charter the boat and would appreciate the added speed, reliability, and safety of diesels. If I had more speed and range, longer trips would be the norm instead of the exception. Basically I am limited to at most 55 miles offshore with a very small margin (maybe 10 mile) safety factor. Most of my offshore trips so far have not gone over 45 -50 miles.
Right now my financial constraints limit me to fixing what I have and replacing the fiberglass tank. I am also in the position to have my 26footer reassembled and ready to go early in the season if need be. Also, splashing the smaller boat might also enable me to sell her. By the way, the 26 has canyon range. I figure with my 2 injury settlements, the sale of my 26 and the sale of the gas motors, I could indeed afford diesels 2 or 3 years down the road.
I have one other question regarding my gassers. I have heard of guys switching the intakes and carbs to the Edelbrock Performer mainifold and a 650cfm Edelbrock marine 4barrel carb. I understand the manifold is good for added torque throughout the entire rpm range of these motors with an increase of about 10 to 15 hp, but I don't know how much their carbs would add or if that is the total for the manifold and carb package. If anyone has any real world, hands on information on this I would greatly appreciate the info.
Harv
Harv,
From what I've heard it's time to find a new yard if you can. I agree with you thoughts on rebuilding you're motors. Use the guy you know to do the complete job and will back it up. The deal the yard proposed doesn't sound good at all.
I think that if you were going to go new gas I'd choose the reman cummins 220/330 roughly the same cost and with the 220's you wouldn't have to change running gear. Actually, you B31 guy's are lucky as the 4cyl diesels are an option, especially your BhiaMar, great econ and decent cruise to boot.
You need a yard like Bruce's someone who's willing to work with you on what you need. I've been lucky enough to find a couple and it has made the difference in my ownership.
One more thing I found when considering a repower. I worked with my local yard and have a good rough number of $40k to repower with cummins 330's and me doing a good portion of grunt work. I've considered re-financing to fund the project and the payment would only be $200 more than I'm doing now. The thing to consider is that the finance people will expect a bill from the yard for x amt ant that's what you have to complete it for. So, rather than having to cume up with the $$ upfront another $200 or so a month for a diesel boat is more liveable.
Whichever way you lean toward, keep in mind that for now ethanol is a reality for gas and very highly likely for diesel. Also for diesel, you should consider compatability with low-sulfur fuels.
Best of Luck,
JohnD
From what I've heard it's time to find a new yard if you can. I agree with you thoughts on rebuilding you're motors. Use the guy you know to do the complete job and will back it up. The deal the yard proposed doesn't sound good at all.
I think that if you were going to go new gas I'd choose the reman cummins 220/330 roughly the same cost and with the 220's you wouldn't have to change running gear. Actually, you B31 guy's are lucky as the 4cyl diesels are an option, especially your BhiaMar, great econ and decent cruise to boot.
You need a yard like Bruce's someone who's willing to work with you on what you need. I've been lucky enough to find a couple and it has made the difference in my ownership.
One more thing I found when considering a repower. I worked with my local yard and have a good rough number of $40k to repower with cummins 330's and me doing a good portion of grunt work. I've considered re-financing to fund the project and the payment would only be $200 more than I'm doing now. The thing to consider is that the finance people will expect a bill from the yard for x amt ant that's what you have to complete it for. So, rather than having to cume up with the $$ upfront another $200 or so a month for a diesel boat is more liveable.
Whichever way you lean toward, keep in mind that for now ethanol is a reality for gas and very highly likely for diesel. Also for diesel, you should consider compatability with low-sulfur fuels.
Best of Luck,
JohnD
-
Tony Meola
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6940
- Joined: Jun 29th, '06, 21:24
- Location: Hillsdale, New Jersey
- Contact:
Harv
You need to do what is right for you. I agree with Bruce on rebuilts. My father was a great mechanic, but as good as he was, he always felt rebuilding a marine engine was questionable. He always said, even fresh water cooled engines, you never know if at some point they had sea water in the oil, due to a bad riser, blown head gasket ect.
Unless you know the block and the guy doing the work you are taking a chance.
I am looking at is this way for myself, my tank at 220 gals, is still good so I save about 6,000 there. My 454's believe it or not are original. I figure if I leave them in, between new carbs, fix the starboard engine and fuel tank, I would have at least 10,000 into the boat and still have 32 year old engines, that will probably need risers in three more years. So I figure that gets me close enough on the cost of the engines with Transmissions to really think about converting and not throwing the money away. I don't know if the Cummins guys are just giving me a story but they say they have plenty of 330's around. That is how I am weighing this out. Good luck in your decision. Tony Meola
You need to do what is right for you. I agree with Bruce on rebuilts. My father was a great mechanic, but as good as he was, he always felt rebuilding a marine engine was questionable. He always said, even fresh water cooled engines, you never know if at some point they had sea water in the oil, due to a bad riser, blown head gasket ect.
Unless you know the block and the guy doing the work you are taking a chance.
I am looking at is this way for myself, my tank at 220 gals, is still good so I save about 6,000 there. My 454's believe it or not are original. I figure if I leave them in, between new carbs, fix the starboard engine and fuel tank, I would have at least 10,000 into the boat and still have 32 year old engines, that will probably need risers in three more years. So I figure that gets me close enough on the cost of the engines with Transmissions to really think about converting and not throwing the money away. I don't know if the Cummins guys are just giving me a story but they say they have plenty of 330's around. That is how I am weighing this out. Good luck in your decision. Tony Meola
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In Memory Walter K
- Senior Member
- Posts: 2912
- Joined: Jun 30th, '06, 21:25
- Location: East Hampton LI, NY
- Contact:
Pardon my chiming in, but having gone through this myself in the past and having made a decision that has held me in good stead for 15 years, here are a few things to think about when it comes to Cummins remainders/rebuilds. The basic engine was/is the 210 Turbocharged 6BT. They aftercooled it to get 250 hp version (6BTA). It is probably (in my opinion) the perfect engine for a 31 Bertram flybridge. Cruise at the mid-20's WOT at the high 20's. Go to the newer 300-330's and the engines are tuned to get higher rpm's which gets you even higher speeds. Given the way we fish in the NE, the higher HP engines at idle move at 5+kts by virtue of the props those engines need to meet their rpm requirements. My needs are for slower maneuvering/ docking/bass trolling. Choosing the higher HP versions make changing the running gear a must which raises the ante of repowering costs. On Bahia Mar models which do not have the weight of the bridge superstructure I would suspect the boat would fly with the 250s. I have the 210's on a Sportsfisherman with a heavy teak deck, gin pole and 130 lb chair. I kept my 1 3/8" running gear, gasser exhaust diameter and cruise at 21 kts @ 7 gals per hr per engine whether there are 2 people on board or six. In a search for engines I would guess that the 250's and the 210's would be easiest to find as they've been around the longest and have proven themselves over time. I also think either would be perfect for a Bahia Mar that fishes in the Northeast where the days you can run 30 kts can be counted on your fingers and slow trolling for Bass is a necessity not a luxury. Gassers do that better so if it's important, you've got to factor it into a diesel choice. My two cents for what it's worth. Walter
John,From what I've heard it's time to find a new yard if you can. I agree with you thoughts on rebuilding you're motors. Use the guy you know to do the complete job and will back it up. The deal the yard proposed doesn't sound good at all.
I have been in this yard for about 9 years. My uncle and I always had a good working relation with them. Prior to my uncle buying the Bertram we had kept just the 26 footer there and bills were always paid in a timely manner. 4 years ago when my uncle died, it became a little more difficult to meet the bills in a timely manner as before. One of the reasons and probably the only reason the yard gave me that ultimatum is the fact that over the last 4 years he has consistantly and patiently worked with me regarding finances. I still owed him roughly 2k before this years winter storage and yes that acounts for 2 boats. He also took into account that I was out of work for close to a year because of my accident. He has done work for me knowing that I can't always pay on the spot and that is the major reason I stay at that yard. Where else can I go ...as a stranger/newcomer.....and be treated the same way. Any time I can do work myself he will assist me or guide me through, gives me free use of shop machines and also has the best dock location in Freeport as far as I am concerned. Generally he is an all around nice guy, does top notch work, and never hassles me. I figure he felt that I was maybe looking to shortchange him somehow. When I discussed this with my father, my father agreed with the yard's position in that he gives me so much leeway.
He also has shown a little faith in me in the fact that after he hauled the boat, he pulled the bad motor, pulled the heads, and already started the repair. If he wanted, he could have wrapped the boat and waited until my account was caught up. He is not a bad person, and I never tried to portray him as such. From what I have seen, there are plenty of yards that do not allow outside work, and realistically, after i looked back at the situation, I agree as well. Why would I, as the owner of a business allow $10k to walk into someone elses hands? He also offered me the option of sending the heads to my friend's shop, but taking care of the bill will be simpler only dealing with one person.
Now as for the future, my friend said he would like me to introduce the 2 of them and maybe down the road, they can enter into some sort of joint venture.
Harv
There have been several 33 owners that re-powered with 8.1's (both Crusader and Merc). At a cruise of 3500rpms they burn around 30gph (or right around what the 454's burn). Of course they're also cruising at 22-23 knots as opposed to 18-19 knots. That being said, I've been on a 33 with Crusader 8.1's and Flo-Scans. To cruise at the old 18-19 knots they still burn around 22-25 gph.
The bottom line is that I doubt you'd get 14gph at 20 knots from 8.1's. Also, despite what the Crusader Rep said, the 8.1's are no where's near 10% of Cummins or Yanmar, but what else would you expect him to say.
The bottom line is that I doubt you'd get 14gph at 20 knots from 8.1's. Also, despite what the Crusader Rep said, the 8.1's are no where's near 10% of Cummins or Yanmar, but what else would you expect him to say.
Regards,
Doug L.
Doug L.
Harv, Sounds like you've already got one of the yard who will work with you, I didn't realize the history you've got with them.
You know it almost sounds like launching and running the 26 would be a good option to buy some time to get things together for the B31.
When I was looking at options this fall I had a choice of the factory reman motors (basically new) or rebuilts from a local rebuilder and for the same motor the difference was about $3k per motor. Obviously the factory reman are the better option, however when you're on a tight budget saving a total of $6k on the project makes a difference. Also, you would do fine with 210-270hp and they're a little less than the 330-370's I looked at. Though they may cost a little more up front, the 4cyl yanmar/cummins would be a great economical option for ya as well.
Best of luck in sorting it all out.
JohnD
You know it almost sounds like launching and running the 26 would be a good option to buy some time to get things together for the B31.
When I was looking at options this fall I had a choice of the factory reman motors (basically new) or rebuilts from a local rebuilder and for the same motor the difference was about $3k per motor. Obviously the factory reman are the better option, however when you're on a tight budget saving a total of $6k on the project makes a difference. Also, you would do fine with 210-270hp and they're a little less than the 330-370's I looked at. Though they may cost a little more up front, the 4cyl yanmar/cummins would be a great economical option for ya as well.
Best of luck in sorting it all out.
JohnD
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Capt Dick Dean
- Senior Member
- Posts: 336
- Joined: Dec 17th, '06, 15:33
- Location: Long Island, N.Y.
- Contact:
Harv, you better stay put and throw all this advice in a pile and go thru it. Hell, it's winter and this would be good on a Sunday afternoon.
Sometime ago, I got hold of a copy of Nigel Calder's book, "Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Manuel". It took just a week to get thru it. Believe me.
I skipped the Spars and Rigging, Deck Hardware, Transmission to Propeller. I know about dripless shaft seals. So why read it? I want to be the Bruce of New York. I would be the Dick of New York. Don't laugh!
Forget all the electrical stuff. Hit the start button. Don't start? Call the gas station man.
After reading the book, I realized that there was no re-power section. That's where I come in. That's my nitch.
So don't do nothing 'til you see me on the Times best seller list. Under fiction ...
Sometime ago, I got hold of a copy of Nigel Calder's book, "Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Manuel". It took just a week to get thru it. Believe me.
I skipped the Spars and Rigging, Deck Hardware, Transmission to Propeller. I know about dripless shaft seals. So why read it? I want to be the Bruce of New York. I would be the Dick of New York. Don't laugh!
Forget all the electrical stuff. Hit the start button. Don't start? Call the gas station man.
After reading the book, I realized that there was no re-power section. That's where I come in. That's my nitch.
So don't do nothing 'til you see me on the Times best seller list. Under fiction ...
A/K/A El Gaupo
-
Bulletproof
- Senior Member
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Jul 3rd, '06, 07:08
- Location: Marblehead, MA
- Contact:
8.1's in my B31
Harv,
I put two 8.1 Crusaders in my boat and naturally it wil be another year before I hit the water so I won't be able to give you testimony on my choice until then. I chose the 8.1s for the money to start then I found out that I was going to have to change the shafts, cutlass bearings, props, and now the tank and maybe the diesels might have been the better decision. Now that they are sitting in the boat I'm stuck with them.
I'm satisfied with my choice for several reasons. The diesels took a foot from my deck and I wasn't fond of that idea. I didn't want to change my engine boxes either. The Crusaders fit exactly in the same place as the 454's, well some modifications to the port oil cooler but otherwise they fit great!
I heard of one other boat down at Lippencott Marina in Maryland that supposedly was owned by Dennis Connor that is on land and for sale but I couldn't get anyone to talk to me about it. I'd love to know what props they had on it.
Anyway, I talked to a guy who had a 38' Viking that switched to the Crusader 8.1's and he went from 28 gallons per hour to 14 cruise. That tells me that mine will do no more than that once I get going. One can only hope. I didn't hav etime to read all the posts but will tomorrow morning. I'm looking forward to being able to tell the rest of my story.
Good Luck!!
I put two 8.1 Crusaders in my boat and naturally it wil be another year before I hit the water so I won't be able to give you testimony on my choice until then. I chose the 8.1s for the money to start then I found out that I was going to have to change the shafts, cutlass bearings, props, and now the tank and maybe the diesels might have been the better decision. Now that they are sitting in the boat I'm stuck with them.
I'm satisfied with my choice for several reasons. The diesels took a foot from my deck and I wasn't fond of that idea. I didn't want to change my engine boxes either. The Crusaders fit exactly in the same place as the 454's, well some modifications to the port oil cooler but otherwise they fit great!
I heard of one other boat down at Lippencott Marina in Maryland that supposedly was owned by Dennis Connor that is on land and for sale but I couldn't get anyone to talk to me about it. I'd love to know what props they had on it.
Anyway, I talked to a guy who had a 38' Viking that switched to the Crusader 8.1's and he went from 28 gallons per hour to 14 cruise. That tells me that mine will do no more than that once I get going. One can only hope. I didn't hav etime to read all the posts but will tomorrow morning. I'm looking forward to being able to tell the rest of my story.
Good Luck!!
Paul Haggett
B31 Bulletproof
Marblehead, MA
B31 Bulletproof
Marblehead, MA
Paul,
No offense, but I have a hard time believing the guy with the 38 Viking. A friend of mine with a 33 Bert replaced his 454's 2 yeras ago. The fuel burn on my 33 with 454's was 30-32 gph at 3150-3200 rpms (flo-scan confirmed), good for 18-19 knots. I was on my friends boat last March. Here are his results (with flo-scan numbers):
4600rpm 30.1kn 63gph .47mpg
4200rpm 27.6kn 48gph .51mpg
3470rpm 22.5kn 31gph .70mpg
3200rpm 19.9kn 27gph .70mpg
3050rpm 17.0kn 24gph .69mpg
2800rpm 15.0kn 22gph .68mpg
2600rpm 13.2kn 19gph .67mpg
So while the 8.1's do burn less, there's no way a 38 Vike went from burning 28 gph to 14 gph. My friend usually runs his boat at 3400-3500 rpms as the KMMG are the same as if he ran at 3200. If you look at the boat tests in any of the Boating Magazines, they will back up this data. While your speeds will certainly be greater, the fuel burn should be pretty much as detailed above.
No offense, but I have a hard time believing the guy with the 38 Viking. A friend of mine with a 33 Bert replaced his 454's 2 yeras ago. The fuel burn on my 33 with 454's was 30-32 gph at 3150-3200 rpms (flo-scan confirmed), good for 18-19 knots. I was on my friends boat last March. Here are his results (with flo-scan numbers):
4600rpm 30.1kn 63gph .47mpg
4200rpm 27.6kn 48gph .51mpg
3470rpm 22.5kn 31gph .70mpg
3200rpm 19.9kn 27gph .70mpg
3050rpm 17.0kn 24gph .69mpg
2800rpm 15.0kn 22gph .68mpg
2600rpm 13.2kn 19gph .67mpg
So while the 8.1's do burn less, there's no way a 38 Vike went from burning 28 gph to 14 gph. My friend usually runs his boat at 3400-3500 rpms as the KMMG are the same as if he ran at 3200. If you look at the boat tests in any of the Boating Magazines, they will back up this data. While your speeds will certainly be greater, the fuel burn should be pretty much as detailed above.
Regards,
Doug L.
Doug L.
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In Memory Walter K
- Senior Member
- Posts: 2912
- Joined: Jun 30th, '06, 21:25
- Location: East Hampton LI, NY
- Contact:
I just got the new Boat U.S. magazine and there was an interesting note about Marine Power 8.1's. Seems that the overlapping valves cause real water intrusion problems with some of these engines.
I am very happily in diesel land right now. I just look back on my gas days as a headache from the get go. I know they were doomed from the start, but god they sucked.
I lived with water intrusion all the time. I changed out chocolate oil more times than I care to admit or count. I cannot imagine buying a new boat, with new power, and having those types of problems from the get go.
Harv. Be careful.
Call me.
Dug
I am very happily in diesel land right now. I just look back on my gas days as a headache from the get go. I know they were doomed from the start, but god they sucked.
I lived with water intrusion all the time. I changed out chocolate oil more times than I care to admit or count. I cannot imagine buying a new boat, with new power, and having those types of problems from the get go.
Harv. Be careful.
Call me.
Dug
While the 8.1's do have the potential for water ingestion due to overlap, I know Merc, Crusader, adn Volvo have taken steps to rectify the situation. I think how the engines are installed has a lot to do with the issue.
I know it sounds crazy for 5.7's in the Luhrs, but its the truth.
I know it sounds crazy for 5.7's in the Luhrs, but its the truth.
Regards,
Doug L.
Doug L.
I am not sure how to post a PDF image/file here, but I have the article in question in PDF format. It does reference another article from Jan '03 about 7.4L and 8.1L GM marine engines suffering valve failures due to condensation from exhaust migrating back into engine during vacuum created during intake stroke. This particular article does however focus on 5.7L's in a Luhrs 32 Convertible. I realize it seems ridiculously underpowered and I agree. That's what I remembered most about the article...the fact that they even put 5.7's in a 32. Anyways, all that aside if anyone would like a copy of the article let me know and I will email it to you.
Matt
1975 B28 FBC
Toms River, NJ
Matt
1975 B28 FBC
Toms River, NJ
This is a typical example of the crappy writing/reporting that we can expect from Boat Useless. They mention a problem with one set of engines referencing a 3 year old article on big blocks and then write about the current problems invloving a small block. Like all of the ethanol bullshit they write about, they continue to cause more problems by serving to confuse rather than informing.
If it wasn't for the unlimited Tow option on their mememberships I'd have nothing to do with them.
If it wasn't for the unlimited Tow option on their mememberships I'd have nothing to do with them.
Regards,
Doug L.
Doug L.
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thuddddddd
- Senior Member
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- Joined: Jun 29th, '06, 07:42
- Location: N. east Ma, home of fat teddy
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thuddddddd
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1028
- Joined: Jun 29th, '06, 07:42
- Location: N. east Ma, home of fat teddy
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