Removing front and side window frames on 86 B28

bertram 20 · Post by **bertram 20** » Feb 16th, '12, 12:10

hello just wanted to know if anyone out here has removed there front and side window frames, i would like to powder coat them.I wanted to know if its a bitch or not to bad to take apart thanks mike

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Feb 16th, '12, 17:46

Never took the windows out of a B20 but I have taken them off of a 244 Chapparell and a B31 for cleaning repairing and painting.

Not a bad job....on both boats the windows were held on with "Tee Bolts" that are in a channel on the bottom side of the frame. Have to remove the head liner to get to them.

But more importantly is the Power Coating. A local guy told me that he had tried several times to power coat old aluminum window frames and generally was not successful.

He claims that the heat causes imbedded corrosion pockets to "Pop" and screws up the finish.

It may just have been his methods.....but I took his advice and just blasted and painted.

hb

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Feb 16th, '12, 20:26

Harry...

I had the same problem with my cabin aft bulkhead window frames when I had them powdercoated.. the coating guy warned me, but the finished frames were worse than he described. I wound up throwing the aluminum frames out and making new ones out of pVC sheet myself.

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Feb 17th, '12, 11:05

Mikey had his done and they turned out OK. He used a hammered finish powder to hide any pit s though.

bertram 20 · Post by **bertram 20** » Feb 17th, '12, 23:20

thanks for the info i will probably just sand and paint them

Ed Curry · Post by **Ed Curry** » Feb 18th, '12, 01:41

We had a few discussions on refinishing old aluminum. I don't remember anyone having long term success. I put shrinkwrap tape over mine and even though it sounds cheesy, it works.
Plenty of other issues on my boat to address.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Feb 18th, '12, 08:42

IR guy just wanted to tell you I am pulling up the cockpit floor and panel walls that sit alongside engine box covers.every piece built with azek brand PVC and joined with 3M4000UV .the parts come apart with ease and the PVC looks as good as it did 10 years ago exposed the elements.

Craig Mac · Post by **Craig Mac** » Feb 18th, '12, 08:53

I dont think powder coating will hold up for this application.

The frames are not stable and twist as the boat rides--the joints will rub and eventually crack--once that happens it will fail. I think you would be better off painting with imron.

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Feb 19th, '12, 11:06

Bob Lico...

I would never have thought about using PVC (Azek is one of several brand names) for my boat until I read Captain Patrick's Boatbuilder's Tips writeup on it. Now I use it everywhere I can. It isn't strong enough for a bulkhead or anything structural, but for repairs, building things where I used to use plywood, and anything that will be hidden below the floor I now use it exclusively. I use thickened epoxy and screws for joining pieces, and have made lots of things with it. You can sand it, glue it, fasten it, machine it, and paint it just like wood... but you can't use water based paints.

I use the PVC lumber (boards and trim pieces) from Lowe's (Home Depot's stuff has a false grain pattern on one side). I have also found a local builder's supply house that sells Azek in smooth 4'x8' sheets in 3/8" and 3/4". The price is reasonable.. about $75 for 3/8" and $140 for 3/4" sheets.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Feb 19th, '12, 17:07

Brother I even use it for structural like the supports under the companion way for one.lets go back to stick built homes.every single stick built home has strongback in the. Attic across the ceiling rafters.a 2 x4 is not very strong laying on the flat however is you add another 2 x4 along side forming a ell wow 10 times as strong,so I took that long standing theory and put one azek on flat and azek type glued two side by side on top forming a beam this has a upright at each end also of azek PVC.you can walk a elephant across it and waterproof for a hundred years.the sides of the engine box and every thing else in companion way is azek . Incidentally azek is totally superior to all other and when you use there trim molding like 1/4 round by 3/4 for window molding it is solid hard all the way thru.takes awlgrip,imron,endura. And sterling better then fiberglass!!!. I am building a new cockpit floor to take advandage of every square inch of space under the deck for fish boxes and to get at new trolling valves.every structure panel will be azek PVC .

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Feb 19th, '12, 22:36

Bob

What is the secret to cutting this stuff on a table saw. When I tried, it was actually gumming up the blade and not cutting. In fact it got a little hairy since it kicked back on me.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Feb 19th, '12, 23:46

for what it worth never, never shop in a box store! even if you are desperate in the 11th hour. i have a relative way up in the store management for entire country. mba`s working every day to screw the public into believing it`s the right thing.i needed a simple brass 1/4" npt. plug the other day and absolutely had to be solid plumbing supply house only had 7 on hand i needed eight needless to say went to all three national box stores all they had was hollow ------stupid, stupid move this is the same with pvc products,if it is not azek don`t bother of course the box stores don`t carry only cheap imitations to screw the public.sign should read ONLY MADE IN CHINA products here.moral ----use azek cut with thin kerf blade no problem.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Feb 20th, '12, 04:19

What is the secret to cutting this stuff on a table saw? When I tried, it was actually gumming up the blade and not cutting. In fact it got a little hairy since it kicked back on me.

Tony,

The trick to cutting just about all materials, is to use only clean, sharp, good quality carbide tipped blades. Plastics cut best with 60 or 80 tooth blades. A 60 tooth carbide is my standard all around blade on the table saw. About the only time I change over is for cutting acrylic, and have a dedicated 80 tooth carbide that is used only for that purpose.

Yup, those $40-$60 10" blades seem pricy, but they'll out live a plain steel blade by 20 times over, or longer. In the long run they're cheaper than plain steel...

Br,

Patrick

ianupton · Post by **ianupton** » Feb 20th, '12, 08:14

I used to pretend I was a woodworker. More than half the stuff I see on this sight I could never dream of doing.

If you have never tried a Forrest saw blade, you are missing out.

Absolutely the best blade I have ever used. About 2X what Capt. Patrick was just quoting, but honestly the best thing

http://www.forrestblades.com/

Ian.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Feb 20th, '12, 09:09

Ian,

You're right about the Forest Blades, but it'd take a shop, clientel, and production routine like Ray, (Tunawish), has to justify the expense.

One of the things I miss, here in PodunkTexas, is the ability to have my blades professionally sharpened and cleaned. Nobody within a 75 mile radius sharpens saws, other than chain... So I end up buying a couple of new blades every year. I probably have around 20 carbide tipped blades in the dull drawer looking for a fresh start...

Freud Diablo and DeWalt are good quality blades. Irwin, Vermont America, Oldham, Ace, and Skill are junk, but affordable and still far better than a straight steel blade...

Br,

Patrick

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Feb 20th, '12, 09:16

Pat,

I know a good blade sharpener. I can hook you up if you like. Yep, in MA, but UPS can work wonders...

Dug

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Feb 20th, '12, 09:33

Capt. I use the Freud blade 80 tooth and put it to the test with Epi' . Has to be the worst wood to cut ,fortunately we have a old school sharpener not to far away. I cut azek with a very thin carbide kerf blade build up the least amount of heat possible.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Feb 20th, '12, 09:34

Thanks, Dug, but there are several high quality sharpening services here in Texas that I can send to, some even pick up the return shipping, so only the outgoing shipping is out of pocket.

With the amount and type of woodwork that I do, it's still more convenient to just buy a new blade when I need one...

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Feb 20th, '12, 11:51

I use only Freud 50 and 60 tooth carbide tipped thin kerf blades on my 10", 3 HP Delta Unisaw.. A woodworking store went out of business about the time I started using the saw a lot when I was trimming out our new house (I did all the built ins, crown mouldings, door and window casings, hardwood floors, etc, myself.) and I bought 4 new blades when they were about 60% of normal price. I saved the regular steel blade that was original equipment on the saw for when I am cutting stuff that might have nails in it.

I have cut, routed, jointed, thickness planed, resawed, and bandsawed PVC with no problems at all. The only issue for me is that the sawdust sticks to everything when it is new, because of static. You also have to be sure that you vacuum it all away and not let it get outdoors or into your grass.. because unlike wood sawdust it does not rot away. I actually had to vacuum part of our lawn when I was making a lot of PVC sawdust in my driveway on a windy day.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Feb 20th, '12, 12:19

I saved the regular steel blade that was original equipment on the saw for when I am cutting stuff that might have nails in it.

Keep one of the less sharp carbide blades for cutting lumber with nails. Regular steel blade is only going to cut through a very few nails before it's shot. The carbide will chew through a nail like butter, but any ferrous metal will take it's toll even on carbide also...

Remember also, a dull saw blade is a dangerous tool!

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Feb 20th, '12, 23:07

Capt. Pat

Thanks. I believe I have an new 80 tooth Freud. Just have to find were I stuck it.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Feb 20th, '12, 23:11

Bob

My father in law used to design Pumps and Valves for the old Teledyn Farris Company. He always hated the cheap stuff from the box stores. One time a valve busted on a weekend in the winter at his summer place. In a pinch I went and got one of the cheap ones. Then replaced it later on with one from the plumbing supply. The difference in price for a 3/4 ince ball valve was one buck. Not worth buying the cheap stuff.

Put the cheap one next to the one from the plumbing supply house and you will see the difference right away. The castings just don't compare.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Feb 20th, '12, 23:28

tony so true,so true but i have to continue my uphill fight to prevent someone not in tune from doing just that putting in a box store ball valve in a 31 bertram.

Pete Fallon · Post by **Pete Fallon** » Feb 21st, '12, 00:44

Bob,
You wouldn't believe the crap valves and fittings I see being put into our vessels while conducting my surveys. Brass not bronze fittings, brass stop and waste gate valves for sea cocks, schedule 40 PVC pipefittings cross threaded to thru hulls and non stainless steel hose clamps. Fuel lines with zip ties and wires with household wire nuts, all these items can cause a sinking or a fire. Most owners don't know the difference between brass and bronze and just want to do it on the cheap. Like Forest Grump said you can't fix stupid.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Feb 21st, '12, 09:58

Pete excellent post ,and coming from a guy with hands on experience it means that much more!

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Feb 21st, '12, 10:38

tony i should mention it is almost essential to use that same blade in your sliding compound saw or chop saw this is 8" crown on built up ogee just fits in saw . a learning curve for me mitering crown on a 45 degree.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Feb 21st, '12, 10:42

another view

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Feb 21st, '12, 10:55

here are some of the azak samples used as a bottom border on a house in this case just showing you all azek brand moldings are solid pvc and cut fantastic on your saw obviously not available in box stores.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Feb 21st, '12, 22:30

bob lico wrote:here are some of the azak samples used as a bottom border on a house in this case just showing you all azek brand moldings are solid pvc and cut fantastic on your saw obviously not available in box stores.

Bob

The HD by me handles Azek. I know that in a lot of case's even name brands are made cheaper for HD. Is that true with the Azek board?

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Feb 22nd, '12, 08:59

Ian is right about the Forrest blades. Far superior to any other. They use a special micro grain carbide that is sharped to a polished edge, unlike most carbide, which is sharped to a rough finish. Capt. Pat, Forrest has its own sharpening service that will put the polished edge back on the carbide!! Try it, you won't go back! Forrest Woodworker II is what is on my good 10" cabinet saw (I also have a cheap Sears tablesaw for ripping salt treaed and other crap!)

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Feb 22nd, '12, 09:17

Yes that's what I try to indicate.my relative received his MBA then on to a PM degree ,very important if your looking for CEO in the future anyways he is at atlanta hq .americans are brand conscious so the entire store is gear to that.lets say you go to Lincoln welder corp. and ask would you drop your draws for 10.00 bucks (of course not)how about 10 million-------_yep! So they take the same A/c welder and keep it exactly the same outside but inside made for very limited use like a homeowner.they mark serial number with H at the end and a tag not for continuous use on back for legal reasons. You walk in store ---- Wow 40.00 bucks cheaper then the welding store down the street !.the key here is name brand to fu- k the public that is not aware. Benjamin Moore paints is one of the very few ( Keep your money) the rest of the products bolt nut screws and every else with no country or brand name is china or pacific rim country knock off.these MBA. Buyers go thought out the world to save a nickel when they do they get promoted.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Feb 22nd, '12, 22:38

Bob

Just wasn't sure on the Azek. Seems like a lot of trouble for them to go through on a composit board. There are some things that the manufacturer will not change yet HD has to carry it. I saw 5200 in one tonight. I am sure that is the real thing. Was priced like it.

bertram31.com

Removing front and side window frames on 86 B28

Removing front and side window frames on 86 B28

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