Navigation

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Feb 4th, '12, 08:00

Unless you use your boat from the house to the bar for a drink and back home again, learning how to navigate is important.

Now add to this navigation out of sight of land and without the use of anything but a compass to travel hundreds if not thousands of miles.

Even navigation within bodies of water using clear cut charts is difficult for some.

On another site I go to on experimental power and energy and non grid connection living, the subject of car GPS came up and how people nowadays just don't seem to be able to to figure out general compass direction on a bright sunny day.

With solar flares coming off the sun expected to hit their peak in a few years, it has already in the past and many expect in the future to damage the power grid.
Myself I'm not so sure the power grid is that vulnerable.

I've already done enough trips with Pat to know he's one of the best persons I've met for the natural ability to navigate.

I know the trips I've done on land, sea and in the air using nothing but a compass turned out just fine.
But it got me to thinking.

Who here would feel comfortable and sure enough of their abilities to navigate out of sight of land with only a compass, chart and a watch?

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Feb 4th, '12, 08:34

Been there and done that in my pre-Bertram 31 days. A war surplus Loran A was my first electronic navigation device. It's a lot spookier in a dense fog and you have to learn your approximate speeds at various RPM's and a few basic formulas like speed x time= distance and it's variations. A pad and pencil along with a chart are a must on the bridge and a chronograph watch also helps.

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Feb 4th, '12, 09:07

Been there and done it on short Snapper trips out into the Gulf of Mexico.

Was not good at it back then and certainly would not trust my abilities today.

The Time/Direction/Speed thing seemed predicitable but compensating for the wind and current ALWAYS threw me off.

For me it was just do the best you can until you can get a visual the "Shore Line" or a water tower or something to steer to.

Its amazing how recognizable the shore line becomes after only a few trips.

Been hearing a lot about the "Sun Spots".

hb

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Feb 4th, '12, 10:29

I regularly run using traditional navigation methods, but I verify with the electronics. I always run using compass courses, even when visibility is perfectly clear. That way when I am running in fog or at night I only worry about the other stuff in the water around me, I know where I am and where I'm going.

Twenty years ago I spent a winter learning how to navigate with a sextant and when we are drift fishing or slow trolling I will shoot the sun during the day or stars at night and plot position. Comparing to the GPS or the Loran can make you feel pretty good, and sometimes make you look stupid.

Capt. DQ · Post by **Capt. DQ** » Feb 4th, '12, 11:14

Back in day, some used radio antenna directional finders. But also knowing the land location of the antenna on land was important too. But the compass is the most important part of any navigation unless your using the sun.

Now...not many boat owners ever have had their compasses calibrated for their boats...which could be off as much as 10 degrees in one direction or the other out of the box, enough to really get you in trouble if your navigating by your compass only.

DQ

Pete Fallon · Post by **Pete Fallon** » Feb 4th, '12, 11:27

Bruce,
34 years ago I was fishing for blue fish up in North Shore of Boston, about 6 miles off shore. A fog bank came in very suddenly, after catching only a couple of fish I headed for my mooring behind my house in Salem. I had only had the 31 express for 3 months, the electronic's consisted of a compass, a VHF and an old Apelco paper depth finder and my charts, watch and a sense of where I was before the fog bank came in.
Just as I got to the mooring the fog started to lift, I looked behind me and there were 9 small runabouts in a line following me. I asked the 1st guy how long he'd been there and he said that he was near by when the fog came in 6 miles out and he figured if I had a Bertram I knew where and what I was doing and he followed me all the way in just by the sound of my exhaust.The other boats were like lemmings and if I had gone aground or gone somewhere else the entire pack would have also.
I grew up on the water front, had a boat since I was 5 and was USCG liciensed 100 ton for 40 years until I gave it up a few years ago. I still carry a chart of the area with me no matter who's boat I'm on, it's always folded up in my day bag. I don't put all my marbles in one bag (lectronic nav systems) always have a back-up.
Bruce want to play some golf? Call me 561-310-7179

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Feb 4th, '12, 12:20

Pete- If you're playing golf, your knee's getting better. Way to go!

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Feb 4th, '12, 14:05

I have become lazy and started relying on GPS...its just so easy.

But on longer trips I still pull out the charts and make sure I know my course before turning on the GPS. Following tight channels I rather have a chart as the GPS always seems to update at the turns when you need it most.

Second year with the boat I traveled the LI Sound using only the Compass, Watch Depth Sounder and Charts. I went from LI to Connecticut and Back each leg, staying a day or two each traverse on my way up to Essex. I was amazed just how accurate I would come to each waypoint. When I encountered my first real good Fog roll in I was so tempted to use the Loran...especially as I had to stop and let a Tug and barge go by before carrying onward... but figured what the hell if I don't find the next waypoint (entrance buoy) I'd fall back to the Loran. I was so proud of myself as the buoy came into sight just off my bow.

Road trips, I hate the GPS unless I know where I'm going.
It's nice to have but it makes your mind wishy washy...I find driving with the GPS is like being a passenger and I couldn't find my way back as is I had driven...make sense?

conchy joe · Post by **conchy joe** » Feb 4th, '12, 14:24

At least once a year. My wife and I practice compass navigation on our trips to the Bahamas. Its fun and helps occupy our time on the three hour crossing, plus it keeps the skills sharp. Even when we use the GPS we write down our coordinates, speed and course every 30 minutes, just in case we loose the gps, we can keep going.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » Feb 4th, '12, 15:38

No electronics? No problem.

However these days I don't trust a compass I have not used before. Most people don't don't know how to swing them or bother to have them swung. I always check an unknown compass against a few known cardinal courses between buoys before relying upon it.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Feb 4th, '12, 16:09

i wish i could say the same as you guys on land. i have a lot of problems with a compass. lets say i take my truck as far in as i can in maine north country then put the canoe in the water and go down river a few miles looking foe black bear signs on riverbank.i pull the canoe up on land and take a compass reading ok i want to walk to that group of four pine trees near the ridge at south/southwest 190 degrees . i start walking with my arrows in the bow quiver so i have both hands to support me should i get my foot stuck or lose balance (this is basically uncharted lands with no roads or paths) now i have to walk diagonal because of swamp or blow downs or rocky incline impossible to climb now i try to compensate as i take out my compass and take a reading and go back the opposite diagonal way and same distance .sure enough i get to the ridge at those compass headings but that group of pine trees are nowhere to be found . i found bear droppings but i thinking i have no clue how to get back to that canoe! basically you have walk to the east and to the west but still on the 190degree heading.i say impossible to walk in a straight line or even close too in that landscape.at best you have to go down hill to get to river .remember you wand to drag that bear down hill however you be totally loss tracking that blood trail.ASK me how i know!!!!!

MarkS · Post by **MarkS** » Feb 4th, '12, 16:17

Navigating the Great Lakes or even some of the other large bodies of water I spend time on I feel very comfortable in almost every case. Dad taught me how to read a map early in life and blindfolded almost every time I can tell you were north is, internal compass.

Throw in currents and tides and all bets are off. The Gulf Stream would throw me for a loop. Troll the same direction all day then throw the fuel to it continuing in the same direction to get home when the brain says turn around and go the other way?

I am sure I could get it but somebody got to splain it to me..................

Capt.Frank · Post by **Capt.Frank** » Feb 4th, '12, 20:15

Peter that reminds me of a story my dad tells. We were returning from shark fishing to Fire Island Inlet and it was foggy around the inlet. I was 10-12 yrs old run compass and watch and found the sea bouy no probem. There was 4-5 big boats with radar and Loran and they were going back and forth about a half mile from the inlet. I ran right in between them to the inlet like I had done dozens of times and they followed me to captree and I went northeast to Oakdale and they went north west to bayshoe I guess.

Bruce, I use my compass and time on every trip, GPS back up. I can remember being on a bunch of boats that lost electronic and people freak out. The sun rises in the east and sets in the west.

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Feb 4th, '12, 20:50

Im great on my turf. I can go at nite or in the fog to any canyon within 140 miles and back without gps. But after 650 canyon trips even somebody as stupid as me can do it. Somewhere else maybe not so great.

randall · Post by **randall** » Feb 4th, '12, 22:18

well....my dad was a navigator and flew many night combat missions so i figured i had it in my blood. i guess its not hereditary. i missed block island by two miles in the fog. (no electronics at all) i grew up on the water and always feel comfortable i'll get there. lost in the mountain back country is worse.

Rocky · Post by **Rocky** » Feb 4th, '12, 22:57

I'm good with compass watch and chart, BUT when you take away the location of the sun in bad weather AND no dead reckoning once in awhile to position on that chart from deviation(current,wind,tide) I'm watching for that split second of dead reckoning until I find it. Otherwise I'm just wasting fuel and getting myself into a dangerous situation running for a period of time off course. My father used a direction finder (ADF I believe) device on the boat from an airplane when we flew, along with of course a compass, watch and chart. The sextant I've always wanted to learn how to use, it seems like anyone who does a lot of open ocean cruising knows it like the back of there hand, I know my father does (circumnavigating). LoranC I remember was the greatest thing to come since sliced bread back then!

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Feb 5th, '12, 17:40

I would like to say sure.. I can navigate fine with a compass, chart, and a watch, but it has been so many years since I have had to do it I admit I am rusty and wouldn't want to have to. Every few years I take the coastal navigation course again as a refresher.. and learn something new every time.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Feb 5th, '12, 23:18

When we first got the Bertram back in 75, we started running offshore with a friend, who also had a 31. He taught me how to come home using the compass and the depth finder to check my position. Of course the chart is essential. I think I can still do it. The issue is, back in those days, if the loran quit on you, you always had the compass and depth finder. Today, if the GPS goes out, you probably lost the depth finder also.

The other thing I do, even when trolling, always mark your latest position on the chart every 15 minutes. That way you when you have to head home, you are at least within 15 minutes of your last destination. Good news here is that living in the NE, it is pretty hard to not hit land.

Now cuting the bay is another story. Did that once in the fog. No fun. Took us longer to cut the bay 5 hours), 7 miles from home than come in from 15 miles off shore in pea soup fog, than run Barnegat Inlet which at the meant running west 1/2 mile, north up the beach a mile then west through the jetty's.

White nuckle day.

randall · Post by **randall** » Feb 6th, '12, 01:18

running in fog with andre' and thudd i learned a valuable lesson....not everything is on the chart or the GPS.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Feb 6th, '12, 07:59

I figured it wouldn't be too long before a news story came along that was appropriate.

Seems they didn't have a compass or GPS or any survival gear especially when traveling in a new area including matches or lighter.

I luv his comment on not being able to start a fire with sticks or rocks. Since I've done both, first back when I was a kid, he's full of it. First though you have to know what your doing. That seems to be the major hurdle with most.

Just another unprepared bunch playing Darwins wheel of evolution. People should be held liable for the costs associated with search and rescue's.

http://www.startribune.com/nation/138740159.html

GOLD BEACH, Ore. - Dan Conne says he and his wife and son thought they were going to die after getting lost while picking mushrooms and spending nearly a week in the rugged forest of southwest Oregon.

They spent the nights huddled in a hollow log and considered sacrificing their pit bull, Jesse, for food.

"She's that good a dog, she'd have done it, too," Conne said.

But help finally arrived Saturday when a volunteer helicopter pilot decided to look outside the search area and spotted the family â€” Dan, his wife, Belinda, and their 25-year-old son, Michael â€” on the edge of a deep ravine in tall timber. The three were about 10 miles from the town of Gold Beach, roughly 330 miles south-southwest of Portland..............(read on at site)

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Feb 6th, '12, 08:10

Typical left coast hippy types....

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Feb 6th, '12, 08:43

I grew up on LI Sound and have lived on the Chesapeake for more than 20 years. My Dad taught me to navigate with a compass and charts (time not so much). On the sound, you head north or south and you're OK, on the Bay east or west. Its alot easier to be sloppy when you're not in the ocean and trying to get back to an inlet.

A while back, Doug and I, who had run his 31 Crowsnest to Montauk the year before, took her to Atlantic City for the NE Rend. I went over to Crowsnest at 7 am as planned, and Doug came out of the house around 7:30 looking like it'd been a long night the night before. He had just put in a new stereo system with really powerful speakers in the boat, and showed me the install and cranked up some tunes.

We left the dock on a grey, slick calm morning, and started heading north on the Bay. Doug was running the boat, and I was sitting up on the bridge reading the paper and enjoying my coffee.

I looked up from the paper, and we were heading right for Sparrows Point/Baltimore Harbor. Doug's GPS would cut out now and then, and he was following the course by compass. Problem was, the compass was way off--the new killer speakers, with their big magnets, made the compass useless. Well, we had enough visibility and charts, and the GPS was due to self-start again, so no big deal.

Doug's long night had started to catch up with him, so I ran the boat while he slept through the northen Bay and the C&D Canal. It was beautiful and calm, the GPS had come back on, and Crowsnest had an easy cruise compared to my gasser--it was just great.

We came out of the C&D and turned south into the channel to run down the Delaware Bay to Cape May. Doug's sleeping, Crowsnest's Detroits are sounding great, and its really calm.

I head her south in the channel, and see the fog on the D. Bay--about a 1/4 mile visibility. Then the GPS cuts out again--and the compass is off, and then the card would just do a quick spin for good measure, and Doug's still sleeping.

So, I'm navigating using a chart and radar--the radar would pick up the channel marker bouys, I'd keep track on the chart, and just kept staying between the buoys down the Bay and matching them up on the chart as I passed. It worked pretty well.

We get down the Bay pretty far to where it really widens up, and its getting alot harder to keep track of the buoys with the radar. Doug wakes up, takes over the helm, and we have some laughs over Crowsnest's electronics and nav. system. After talking for a bit, we realize that neither of us had kept track of where we were. The GPS was out, the compass was useless, and with nothing close it was really hard to tell what the radar was picking up.

We just kept poking along in the 1/4 mile visibility fog, trying to make sure our wake stayed straight behind us, and eventually came upon two guys fishing in an old 18' or so runabout. We pulled up to them in Doug's B31 Crowsnest with its half-tower, outriggers, internationals hanging off the back of the bridge, and said --"Hey, which way is Cape May?" They looked at us like we were nuts. I said --"Just point." They pointed, and off we went. The looks on their faces was great.

We eventually found Cape May, made our way to AC, and had a great time. Went offshore the next day with a buddyboat, and got a couple of nice YFTs.

My back-up plan was to unscrew the compass from the mount, and sit on the stern yelling out the heading--never came to that.

Boating with Doug--always an adventure and alot of fun.

Oh yeah--that was the same GPS that on the way to Montauk the year before had come off its mount, swung out on its cable, and caught me right on the head. Good times.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Feb 6th, '12, 09:44

So much for big time speakers on the bridge.

randall · Post by **randall** » Feb 6th, '12, 10:14

then theres running in thick fog on autopilot using a buoy as a waypoint. uh oh.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Feb 6th, '12, 10:24

Never understood the the mega wattage sound systems in boats or cars.

Like putting a mercury vapor light in to illuminate your 3' x 3' closet.

Charlie J · Post by **Charlie J** » Feb 6th, '12, 10:44

Like putting a mercury vapor light in to illuminate your 3' x 3' closet.

lol that would put out some heat

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Feb 6th, '12, 11:29

To be honest, I don't like anything that gets in the way of my hearing any operating sounds. When drifting, I love the silence and want to know when/if a pump kicks on or a reel runs off. I know, I'm no fun.

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Feb 6th, '12, 11:36

The story in Maine, where they have heavy fog often is that the old timer fishermen practice "potato navigation" when returning to their home harbor.

They put a boy with a pail of potatoes up in the bow, and whenever the captain orders the boy throws a potato as far as he can, dead ahead.

If the captain hears a splash he keeps going.. if he hears a thud he stops!

Peter · Post by **Peter** » Feb 7th, '12, 06:35

I am a little surprised at the number of the Faithful who feel a little unsure about DR with a compass. When ever I am traveling in boat plane or car I am constantly doing some navigation in my head. How far to the next town? How fast are we going? How long before I expect to get there? How is my fuel condition? Should I stop there or at the next town after that?

Of course in boats its not towns but buoys and in planes it is check points.

It is handy to approximate a nautical mile as 6000 feet. That way everythig is in "60's" 60 minutes to an a hour; 60 seconds to a minute; 6 60's to make the compass rose.... and so on and so forth. 60 is divisable into whhole numbers by 2,3,4,5,6,10 and 12. And of course 60 knots covers one nautical mile in one minute.... so 15 knots that mile takes 4 minutes. Or at 20 knots that mile takes 3 minutes.... you get the idea.

I think the trick is to not worry about getting it down to the third decimal point as you work the numbers in your head. Over distances of many miles it is more like to the nearest five minutes... in the shorter distances to the nearest minute and only critical stuff to the nearest couple of seconds because you probably can't keep that steady a speed and course anyway unless the distance is very short.

If you start doing this stuff in your head it becomes a kind of game and a fun challenge, and then you start to get pretty good at it pretty quickly. Even on commercial airline flights if I know the approximate route I'm checking my watch and figuring where we should be and what I should be seeing if I can see the ground at all... and when the decent should start and so on and so forth. Why bother? Because it is habit.

Now I know that sounds like alot of needless busy work, but honestly it gets so you are pretty quick with it. The effort to calculate the time to go on a leg for instance is only a few moments of mental effort. I think I have spent more time thinking about getting another beer!....then it becomes fun....and then it gets to be habit.... and when you need it you will have confidence in your ability to navigate by dead reconning.... and if you have developed the habit you will always know pretty precisely where you are.

If you are going to have to REALY RELY on nav by DR over a long distance you need to keep a log of course steered and speeds and get down with the current corrections. This is getting past the "do it in your head" stage but still having a mental picture of what you would expect in a no-current situation lets you know if you have done the math right or if you are way off.

So I encourage all of you to give it a try. It is awkward at first because who likes to do math in their head? But it quickly becomes easier because of the 60's thing. In a matter of a few trips I gurantee you will start having fun with it if for nothing else but a moment of amusement when you are otherwise bored. Soon you will find you can't stand not knowing where you are on the course or road. And then it becomes habit.

As for land navigation in the woods by compass; it is a bit tougher because you often can't walk directly toward your desired destination. So you must use two or more landmarks and triangulate a bit as well as use back sights and ranges. Back sights are hugely helpful. Always take back sights. If nothing else they make you familiarize yourself with the way the terrain will look when you will be returning. I admit that the whole situation is tougher.

Peter

randall · Post by **randall** » Feb 7th, '12, 10:38

peter.....the danger with backcountry skiing is gravity. if you dont stay above your escape route there is a painful slog in your future....and thats just navigation....most of the attention is focused on avalanche avoidance.

its amazingly easy to get disoriented in the woods when the only direction you can possibly go is down.

TailhookTom · Post by **TailhookTom** » Feb 7th, '12, 10:57

Watch, compass, dividers and numerous paper charts -- all of which have course, time, speed and distance written on them -- by me!!!

TailhookTom · Post by **TailhookTom** » Feb 7th, '12, 11:00

By the way, the dog should have sacrificed them and then gone back home. Try sacrificing my dog, the last sound you will hear will be your neck snapping.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Feb 7th, '12, 11:56

I will fess up to being unsure. I'd consider myself a bayman and can get around the bay in any conditions no problem. My offshore experience is a straight line from the inlet head buoy. I always know my distance and course heading to get back. I need to work on my skills.

MarkS · Post by **MarkS** » Feb 7th, '12, 12:07

I ain't buying it Walter! I bet you are a hoot! Hell I'll even let you prove it by buying me a beer sometime before we both check out!

:)

TailhookTom · Post by **TailhookTom** » Feb 7th, '12, 12:19

I'm with you, Mark! Walter ran one of the premier advertisting agencies back in the day when a Madison Avenue ad agency was THE place to be. Hell, I bet the characters of Madmen are partially based on his tales!

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Feb 7th, '12, 14:42

Nobody would believe them....and in retrospect, they WERE funny!

randall · Post by **randall** » Feb 7th, '12, 18:34

i beg to differ....fishing with walter is fun! i've done it a bunch of times.
plus ...you catch fish.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Feb 7th, '12, 22:32

peter that was a good informative post.i have to point out navigation is not the reason you are there and you really cannot be walking every five steps and stop and take a fix.i take a point i would like to set up a blind or climb a tree and as i walk i look down to a cheap bubble compass that is pined to my outer clothing above the top pocket . every now and then i can glance at it and still try to maintain a reasonable straight path to my destination . the bubble compass is only one inch in diameter but when i take my fix with electronic hand held gamin gps. i compare headings. like i said my eyes are on the terrain and signs of the" black ghost " a while back i came out on a sow with cub ---------not smart it just happen the problem is i treat the navigation aspect of the hunt with little regard and the curse myself for not giving it a little more attention like marking or paying attention to landmarks. bruce i was lost overnight about thirty years ago and caught in huge snowstorm every thing was turn around at nightfall i was looking for ash tree to start fire (they burn green ) made a lean too under hemlock tree and cut a bed of hemlock branches to sit on . howling wind and snow a real bitch without fire you would die wandering around in the dark . save all your bullets and shoot at night did not do a damn thing with luck a local with the search party found me with one 358 call round left. much worse then being loss in the open seas with a good functional boat waiting for weather to clear.

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