23' Hunter

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Nov 23rd, '11, 17:59

Reading a nice article in Pro Boat Builder by dan Spurr about history of fiberglass boats, small nice picture of a 23' Hunter, supposed to be the first hull based on Hunt's deep-v hull form.

Has anyone seen one of these in person? The photo is small but man does it look like a neat mini 31' hull

Bob H. · Post by **Bob H.** » Nov 23rd, '11, 18:55

Raybo, The surf hunter was a hunt design, made in padnaram mass, sweet boat. Old timer has one where my dad keeps westwater, very hard to find, great ride...they made a few models, mostly I/O s, same nasty deep V as the Bertram...BH

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Nov 23rd, '11, 21:11

was it a surf hunter or a aqua hunter?

I cant find any photos online

Bob H. · Post by **Bob H.** » Nov 23rd, '11, 21:23

Raybo, Surf Hunter, pre Hood, i found one pic of a wooden one from the 60's, Ill try a pic I can post if not Ill check on the one in my dads marina..BH

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Nov 23rd, '11, 21:26

one picture in pro boat builder, says its from Hearts Of Glass- will have to look through the book for other photos

Bob H. · Post by **Bob H.** » Nov 23rd, '11, 21:39

Found this one...BH..sorry so small...google had one for sale..

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Nov 23rd, '11, 21:48

thats not it, this almost like a 26 express but it had a really nice low windshield that looked like it was wood, picture was black and white

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 1st, '11, 17:15

didnt want to scan the book, here is a photo of the photo in the book

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Dec 1st, '11, 19:15

Are you sure that's not a 23' Dyer that's just named Hunter?

Bob H. · Post by **Bob H.** » Dec 1st, '11, 19:31

Dyers are built right up the road in Warren Rhode Island, keel boats not deep Vs, very pretty boats....BH

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Dec 1st, '11, 20:03

Above the gunnels it looks like a Dyer.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 2nd, '11, 07:17

Im only going off of what the article and the book tells me, it does say that design is what led to the 31, its easy to see when looking at it.
Thought there would be more info on it but its hard to find figured this might be the place to get more of that information.

Guessing finding one would be even more difficult if not impossible

Stephan · Post by **Stephan** » Dec 2nd, '11, 13:21

I may have a chance to visit this weekend with Dyer Jones who worked at The Anchorage (builder of Dyer boats and his name is no coincidence) for 30 years... I'll ask.

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Dec 2nd, '11, 13:46

Super pretty boat, wow.

The Dyers are great boats, but their hulls are the downeast "built down" style. Perfect for rolling in the breakers off Cutty Hunk, where they are supposed to be.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Dec 2nd, '11, 14:04

That looks a lot like this one.....

This picture is from the hunt design site.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Dec 2nd, '11, 14:18

That looks like a Dyer top to me. I know Dyer Craft that I have been exposed to are single engined keel designed boats, but in those days all these boat builders were friends as well as competitors and helped each other out. Especially on matters of wood pre fiberglass.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 2nd, '11, 17:19

peter- looks the same

the combo in a 23' hull looks like a really pretty boat with that windshield

stephan- amazing how small this world is, Im just curious as to how many of these might be around, I'm sure they are very hard to come by let alone find more photos of them.

SteveM · Post by **SteveM** » Dec 2nd, '11, 21:06

very cool history, thanks for posting. would love to see more pics. that hull does look extremely similar.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 2nd, '11, 22:07

Most of the history of boats will die with those who know, books like Hearts Of Glass may not 100% totally accurate but these are accounts given by men who were involved in the development and as already stated men who helped each other despite being competitors . Official records of such things are hard to come by in this industry.

In the article and the book that 23 was made 1957-58, claimed to be the first deep v hull, later made into a 31' wooden version- the rest you guys all know.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Dec 2nd, '11, 22:21

Sure looks like our hull.

Walter,

Even though they were commissioned to build that hull, anything above the gunnel was probably fair game so they put on it what they knew, the Dyer top.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Dec 3rd, '11, 06:48

The picture I posted could be Sea Blitz?

"The deep-vee begins to emerge in Hunt's 1949 design, Sea Blitz, which was commissioned by Hunt enthusiast Bradley Noyes. The bow sections are straighter and Hunt increased the deadrise noticeably, carrying it aft with virtually no flattering. Instead of a broad stern, there was a vee something like the bow.

Hunt loved to build prototypes. By 1958, a wooden deep-vee, complete with lifting strakes and 24 degrees of deadrise, was turning heads in Newport, RI."

Here is a very small pic of Sea Blitz

http://www.huntdesigns.com/documents/hu ... -panel.pdf

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Dec 3rd, '11, 07:04

Found in another book. 40 anniversary Bertram I'll paraphrase.

The boat Bertram saw in Newport was acting as a tender to Easterner a racing yacht built by hunt for the 1958 Americas cup. This boat they refer to as a prototype also acted as a tender to Sceptre a British Americas cup racing boat.

Pauline Bertram recounting hunt and Bertrams first meeting said the boat was called The Huntress.

Bertramp · Post by **Bertramp** » Dec 3rd, '11, 08:09

The Dyer 29 and 40 are soft chined, full keeled, semi-displacement hulled boats.
The windshield on the picture looks like the Dyer boats, but the hull design is nothing like a Dyer.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 3rd, '11, 13:33

Peter- the book talks about glass boats, I'm sure a wooden version of the 23 hull had existed and was probably used as the plug for the glass hulled version.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Dec 3rd, '11, 15:37

It is my understanding that hunter, huntress and sea blitz were wood boats. As was the original moppie which was used to make the mold. I could be wrong.

Rob while I have you let me know when that trailer frees up.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 3rd, '11, 18:22

Peter- I have the current boat inside the shop, it should be cleared up in the next week or two

Here is the passage from the book, I have to type it as I cant find it online.

In 1957 and 1958 , Dyer built 4 fiberglass versions of a 23' powerboat designed by C. Raymond Hunt, one of the first constant deadrise , or deep-v, designs that revolutionized small-boat design. ( The Wharton shipyard in Jamestown Rhode Island may have built the first Ray Hunt constant deadrise hull, a 21 footer; Pete Smyth said it was Palmer Scott )

One of the four was sold to Jacob Isbrandtsen as a tender to EASTERNER ( also a Hunt design ), an America's cup contender that summer. Dick Bertram , a Miami yacht broker, was taken by it and had Hunt design for him a larger ( 31' ) version. Jack Hargrace did the construction drawings for the wooden boat, which was named MOPPIE. She finished 1st in the 1960 Miami-Nassau race, just ahead of Jum Wynne in a 24' deep-v designed by Hunt and built in fiberglass ( in 1959 ) by Palmer Scott.

Other 23- footers were built for Eric Olson and Essex Fiber Boat Company and International Plastics Corp, whose assets were sold to George O'Day associates in early spring 1958.

According to Russ Lundstrom, George O'Day's HUNTER, first of the original four built by the Anchorage, has the distinction of being the first fiberglass deep-v.

Lundstrom said that Bertram, a close friend of Bill Dyer, attempted to patent the v-bottom and that during the ensuing court case Dyer happily cooperated with attorneys from both sides, who visited the yard to inspect HUNTER. Dyer's offer to help Bertram backfired, however, when documentation verifying the date of Hunter's construction before MOPPIE turned the case against BERTRAM.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Dec 3rd, '11, 21:36

Excellent info. A lot I never heard anywhere else.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Dec 3rd, '11, 21:50

Raybo Marine NY wrote: Lundstrom said that Bertram, a close friend of Bill Dyer, attempted to patent the v-bottom and that during the ensuing court case Dyer happily cooperated with attorneys from both sides, who visited the yard to inspect HUNTER. Dyer's offer to help Bertram backfired, however, when documentation verifying the date of Hunter's construction before MOPPIE turned the case against BERTRAM.
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I never heard that they actually pursued the patent. I thought they just failed to file for one. And if Bertram had gotten the patent, they would have ruled the boat building business for over 20 years with virtually no competition. BlackFin and others would not have ever come to exist.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Dec 3rd, '11, 21:57

Can't figure out why that with that judges ruling, Hunt didn't pursue patenting it. It really seems to have been his design. Sure as hell has passed the test of time.

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Dec 3rd, '11, 23:14

Walter, I read an article on Ray Hunt that stated that he did attempt to patent his hull design (deep V from stem to stern with strategically placed lifting strakes) AFTER the success of his Dick Bertram hull in the 1960 Miami to Nassau race. However, since he accommodated Sports Illustrated with drawings that they published in their magazine, the judge ruled that the design had entered the "public domain" prior to the filing of the patent application. Evidently his hull design was a sleepy success until Bertram's dominating performance (and Jim Wynne's 2nd place finish in a smaller Hunt hull that triggered this thread) in that race, and Hunt realized too late that he needed to protect his creation that he had introduced quite a few years prior.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 4th, '11, 09:38

Tommy- that 1960 race could very well be considered the kick in the ass that led to the boats we have today.

"working on shoestring budgets, often out of their own garages, gave birth to the vessels that revolutionized boating. Most got by, some went bankrupt. Few found the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Nearly all did it for the love of boats"

I guess the old saying if you want to become a millionaire building boats start out with 2 million holds true. Almost any business like that if you dont have some real estate investment to fall back on your business "dies" when you decide to call it quits.

Stephan · Post by **Stephan** » Dec 5th, '11, 20:51

OK here's Dyer's response about the photo:

Yes indeed. I will have to look in the company records for more definitive information, but HUNTER was designed by Ray Hunt and built at The Anchorage, Inc. in Warren, RI - I think in 1957-58. I'm not sure, but I think the first "real" owner might have been Bob Alling (or Olling) of Essex Boat Works in Essex, CT.

The picture shows HUNTER on the marine railway at The Anchorage, with the old construction shop in the background. Actually the coaming shape is very similar to that of a Herreshoff, and also that we used on the coaming of the Bill Luders-designed 16' Glamour Girl.

I recall my grandfather, Bill Dyer, taking me along when he towed 4 Dyer Dhows from Warren to Newport with HUNTER in the summer of 1958. The dinghies were gifts to the crew of each NYYC 12 Metre; to be used for recreational sailing (VIM, COLUMBIA, WEATHERLY, & EASTERNER). Remember, the last was designed by Ray. Boy were those days different!! If you go to YouTube and watch the film "Jazz on a Summer's Day" there is even a fleeting glimpse of HUNTER.

I also recall being told that the boat handled so badly at low speed that they experimented with a centerboard to keep her tracking around the harbor and would pull it up at speed.

You would know better than I do, but I think HUNTER was the prototype for what became Dick Bertram's MOPPIE. When at Cornell in the 1930's, Dick used to stay with my grandparents when visiting Providence for Intercollegiate dinghy races at Brown. Later he became a yacht broker in NY before opening his own business in Florida, where he was a Dyer dinghy dealer for many, many years. Dick was also a crewmember of VIM in 1958.

I know there is a big file of pictures of HUNTER in the company photo files, as well as articles & clippings from a number of magazines. Someday we could go through them if you would like.

Years later, we also built a number of the Surf Hunters, based on a similar Hunt design, when Tommy Johnson owned the molds and production rights in the 1970's and 80's.

And that's the way it is...

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Dec 5th, '11, 23:08

Wow Stephen, you really went to the source to clarify points brought up in this discussion. Thanks for sharing with us your visit and conversation with Dyer Jones!

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 6th, '11, 07:04

thanks Stephan, this is what Im talking about- history like this will be lost when those who have it filed in their head are no longer with us.

The book does have a nice section about Dyer and how many tens of thousands of dinghy and sailboats they made over the years.

bertram31.com

23' Hunter

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