Very Quick......but has no THUMP

[Harry Babb]

Yesterday Jo Ann and I pulled into the parking lot at church and there where we seen this cute little car.

We immediately had a bet as to whether a young person or an old man owned the car.

Well as it turned out its owned by Alabama Power. Its sort of a promotional thing making folks aware of electric powered automobiles.

Low and behold one of my aquaintances who works for Alabama Power is the guy driving the car.

Needless to say he drew quite a crowd after church.

Before all was said and done he invited me for a ride. So....snookums drove our bucket of bolts home will Sam took me for spin.

Being a product of the 50's where beauty was a function of Chrome and the 60's where "COOL" was measured in Cubic Inches I have to tell you that I was VERY impressed.

The entire car only weighed 2700 pounds....from 0 to 60 in just under 4 seconds and 60 to 120....just add slightly over 3 more seconds.

I have never felt continous acceleration like that.....ever in my life.

Sam tells me that Lexus is planning to market a similar automobile, 4 door for about $45K

230 miles on a battery charge.....recharge cost $6 and takes about 3 hours......battery last 7 years or 100000 miles.....battery replacement $10K

But it still don't have no "THUMP"! ! ! ! but one hella of golf cart! ! !

The pic is one I copied from the internet....not the one in which I rode

[/img]

[randall]

why the big air intake...what is it cooling?

there are a few teslas runnin around here....they look cool to me.

[Harry Babb]

why the big air intake...what is it cooling?

Good point.....I would assume that the electrical controls would require cooling and may be even the motor.

The battery is as wide as the width of the trunk and sits directly over the rear wheels.....I don't really know where the control circuitry is located.

One of the neat features is that when you remove your foot from the accelerator pedal the motor goes into a generator mode an adds charge back to the battery.

I still like Rumbling Horsepower and 4 barrell carbs but I do think this car is neat and practical.......$3 and $4 gasoline makes it even more attractive as a grocery getter.

hb

[dougl33]

I think they're made in California. They tested one on Top Gear UK a few years ago. It died after a few hard laps around their track and took a long, long time to charge (like 8 hours) and was very expensive. I don't think the electric car is quite there yet.

[Carl]

Harry,
A cool ride for sure.

If I had the money 45grand and 1500bucks a year towards a new battery... plus be able to take a hit on the depreciation of a used battery car, so I could save on gas money...I'd be on line for one. Till then, its fossil fuel for me. Any idea on what it's going to cost to dispose of the battery or do they do a core charge?

We were looking at making up replacement cells for a customers business...ever see the inerds of some of those cells???looks like a bunch of "D" batteries in line....with a hell of a punch...but look like "D"'s non the less.

They have been coming along way in the past few years, but still have a bit more to go for me. At least they are getting away from making them look like an Egg with wheels.

[Harry Babb]

Any idea on what it's going to cost to dispose of the battery

Here in Alabama battery disposal (or anyother hazardous material for that matter) can be disposed for as little as $120.00.....total

Procedure.......drive over to the next town, rent a mini storage....tell them that your name is Richard Cranium....price is 2 months rent......drop off the battery......end of story! ! !

One of my buddies owns and rents mini storage warehouses......you would not believe what kind of "Presents" he gets and has to deal with......no dead bodies (So Far)

Seriously......I suspect that within 5 years battery technology will be good enough to make electric transportation a viable option.

I personally don't think its a bad option right now.....many folks in our town use fancy golf carts for grocery getters.

hb

[IRGuy]

Once the electric cars become accepted by the public you can bet that the EPA or the Natl Highway Transportation Board will make regulations controlling how the batteries must be disposed of, probably adding significant costs to the electric car equation. Then there are the taxes on gasoline.. electric cars don't use gas, so the government loses gas tax revenue, so it passes regulations that add taxes to the costs of recharging the car's batteries.

It takes a certain amount of energy to move a certain amount of weight a certain distance in a certain time. One of the laws of physics. That energy has to come from somewhere, and you can bet the government will tax it! Solar, wind and water are assumed by a lot of people as being "free".. but there are huge investment costs involved in producing and distributing the power they generate. After the government gets through I bet all automobile propulsion systems will cost pretty much the same on a unit cost basis.

Granted there are different efficiencies involved with different propulsion methods, but you can bet that the government will find a way to tax any energy system that replaces traditional gasoline. Remember that the government makes more money from the sale of gas than the refineries do.

There ain't no free lunch!

[Dug]

Harry, Both Liz and I took a ride in a Tesla in Seattle a year or so ago. IT WAS THE COOLEST ###### CAR I HAVE EVER BEEN IN!!!!!!!!

Unbelievable. In so many ways. They are coming out with a 4 door sedan soon, and it will be below $50,000. I would seriously consider buying one.

Just an incredible car. And I loved having that acceleration and cornering with no engine noise! It was unreal!!!!!

[In Memory Walter K]

Nothing in this country comes for free. Out our way, they're encouraging hooking up to town water. We have wells that test fine. My friend hooked up and now gets charged every time he flushes his toilet. As far as a "get around town" car, unless it's got a big trunk or storage space for groceries, kid's items etc, they're useless. That's what a get around town car is used for...shopping, picking up and delivering people and stuff. Don't people do their homework? I used to have a doctor charter customer who came to the boat in a beautiful Masserati sportscar with his girlfriend. I had to fillet everything and make small tight packages wrapped in plastic because there was no room for even a small cooler. The fish raced home tucked in corners. I always hoped he forgot one in the car, but if he did, I didn't hear about it.

[Harry Babb]

EPA or the Natl Highway Transportation Board will make regulations controlling how the batteries must be disposed of, probably adding significant costs to the electric car equation.

Sounds like the birth of an entire new industry....opportunity knocking....


Renegade response: refer to post #6 of this thread....LOL....and trust me...it happens every day....I mean every day...not that I condone it....and I truely don't but it does happen every day......now if we could drop the used batteries off on the door step of the EPA....different story.

I was actually told by a gal of an organization representing EPA that the "Solution to Polution is Dilution"......and that ain't right either....

hb

[Peter]

The trouble with electric cars is it takse what it takes in HP to move a car down the road:

Typical specific fuel consumption numbers:

**

Gas engine; Otto cycle:

0.37 to 0.45 lb/hp*h => 0.060 to 0.073 gal/hp*h
Average: => 0.067 gal/hp*h

360 to 490 grams/ kW*h

**

Diesel Engine:

0.30 to 0.34 lb/hp*h => 0.042 to 0.048 gal/hp*h
Average: 0.045 gal/hp*h

178 to 209 grams/kW*h

**

Diesel weighs 7.15 lb/gal => 3.25 kg/gal

Gasoline weighs 6.15 lb/gal => 2.80 kg/gal

**

1 HP is about 749 Watts (close enough to call it 750)
**

For a boat engine like my 3.0L’s which I calculate are burning about 7 gal/ hr/ per side at cruise this is as follows:


(7 gal/h) / (0.067 gal/hp*h) = 104 HP per side

Rated at 130 HP peak output this is 80% cruise

**

For my ‘88 Honda making 35 MPG on the highway at an estimated average speed of 50 mph ( it is really hard to average over 50 MPH even if it seems like you are going 70 MPH for miles on end) we get as follows:

35miles per gallon /50 MPH = 0.70 hours to go 35 miles.

1/0.70 comes to 1.43 gal/hr burn rate at highway speed.

(1.43 gal/h) / (0.067 gal/hp*h) = 21.32 hp output.

**

For the Suburban getting 18 MPG at highway speeds this is calculated easily as a ratio to the Honda as follows:

35 : 18 = ? : 21.32

(35/18) * 21.32 = 41.5 HP

This seems remarkably efficient for the ‘Burb! My old BMW 2002 used to use the same amount of power.

**

So between the two one could pick as a number about 30 MPG and get the following:

(30/18) * (21.32) = 35 HP for an “average” car.

**

35 Hp is (750) * (35) = 26,250 Watts => 26.25kW
For an hour of highway run time this comes to 26.25 kW/hr and at an average speed of 50 MPH that amounts to 50 miles range.

**

A Watt is the voltage times the amps in electrical terms.

A typical household 110 volt outlet is breaker-limited to 15 amps. More than 15 amps and the breaker pops.

15 amps * 110 volts = 1,650 Watts => 1.65 kW

If you had no losses (and there are always losses) you would have to charge on that circuit for

26.25/1.65 = 15.9

call it 16 hours for every 1 hour of highway travel.

**
If I used a circuit with twice the voltage (i.e. a 220 line at 15 amps) the charge time would be half, or only 8 hours for a hour of highway travel.

**

I could go to a bigger line and breaker…. Say a 60 amp 220 volt line (roughly like a shore-power cord for a boat) and get to 2 hours of charge time for every hour of drive time….. but most homes would require dedicated rewiring in the garage or driveway area to accommodate this.

**

Soooo we are stuck with how far can we get on something reasonable like 220V at 20 amps which is like a stove or dryer circuit:

220*20 = 4400 or 4.4 kW

If we charge for 8 hours we will have gained 35.2 kW*hr

But on the highway we draw down at the rate of 26.25 kW/hr. Thus we have a run-time range of 1.34 hours.

At 50 MPH this is 67 miles for an 8 hour charge.

**

Since we are discussing highway driving here there is no significant regenerative energy recapture from braking. This lack of regenerative braking explains why hybrid owners who do lots of highway driving are not impressed with the mileage of their vehicles, while people in urban settings who drive hybrids seem to go forever on a tank of gas. Around town you use a little energy to accelerate from a green light, and then you recapture a lot of it at the next red light. But on the highway it is all one-way. Energy comes out of the batteries steadily and never goes back in because you are almost never on the brakes.

Even with magic weightless batteries there is no practical way to make the range longer unless you stop for days at a time to recharge. Or you use some sort of crazy huge electrical system to accomplish the charging.

In rough terms what would that be?

**

A conventional car will usually go about 250 miles on a tank of gas on the highway. It can then be refueled in about 10 minutes.

250 miles is 5 hours of run time at an average speed of 50 mph. Our electric car would have used up

26.25kW * 5 hrs = 131.25 kWh

I need to replace this in a time span on the order of 10 minutes, which is 0.167 hours

131.25 kWh / 0.167 hours = 785.9 kW

The primary source of power usually has 4 kV available… 4000 volts:

785.9 kW / 4kV = 196 amps…..

Clearly this is a LOT of power. Basically two 100 amp lines at 4 thousand volts each. This is not going to be practical for “self serve” refueling!

**

AND we still have not discussed losses from converting from fossil fuel at the power plant, to high voltage electricity for long distance transmission, to lower voltage electricity in the home, to chemical storage in the battery, all just to charge.

Followed by the next layer of losses to convert back from chemical energy stored in the battery to electrical energy to feed the car motor, and then to mechanical motion in the car.

Every step has losses. My old car has losses too. The losses come from converting from fossil fuel to mechanical motion. One big step. But the “clean” electric car has introduced 4 additional steps (for a total of 5 ) into the process along with their inherent inefficiencies.

**
Purely electric plug-in cars simply don’t pass the sniff test in engineering terms for efficiency or environmental benefit. There are specific situations in which they may be useful, but in broader terms as they are presently conceived as a self contained battery/motor/vehicle unit that you regularly recharge they are hopeless.

The same situation dogged rechargeable cordless tools until someone figured out to package them with spare batteries that you swap out so you use one while another is being charged…. perhaps this is the future of electric driving. Instead of charging up you drive in to a facility and they swap out the battery.

Another solution is to put the electricity in the street. There is a Korean firm that is working on a system that puts an electric line in the road and the vehicle rides over it charging by induction as it goes.

The hybrid solution will continue to work well in urban settings as a small motor (or fuel cell) can run as required, even continuously, to charge batteries that are only called upon intermittently for power… but hybrids as they are now will never conquer the highways.

Peter

[Rawleigh]

Interesting Peter. Not to mention the problem of heat when charging at those high rates!

[Dug]

I liked the car because I thought it was slick as hell, and drove like a bat out of the same place. Its charge/discharge cycle worked for me given the way I typically drive. If I need our pickup truck, I take it. But for zipping, and I mean zipping around, this car is slick as the bottom of a bus drivers pants.

[Carl]

And I loved having that acceleration and cornering with no engine noise! It was unreal!!!!!

I'm not sure if that is a plus or not. I love a throaty roar when mashing the pedal down out of a turn.

[Peter]

I liked the car because I thought it was slick as hell, and drove like a bat out of the same place.

I'm not denying it could be a ton of fun. It looks fun, but so is a Healey, and so is an Alpha. And that isn't a jab meant to take anything away from this sporty little toy. It is also smaller, lighter and probably aerodynmically cleaner than an "average" car, so it probably uses less energy at highway speeds and requires less recharging.

My comments are only to make the point that the usefullness of electric and hybrid cars are limited to short trip/ stop and go/ long charge-to-drive cycle situations. The reason I choose to make this point to the Faithful is because there is a lot of hype out there about battery technology and electric vehicles being the future to zero emissions driving. But the math shows you they can't possibly deliver on thier promises for a practical highway model... at least not until they invent a perpetual motion machine.

The other part of the electric car hype that bothers me (not made here, but elsewhere) is the idea that burning fossil fuel in the regional powerplant and then transmitting and transmuting it to the car wheels via electric and chemical means is somehow emissions free. This is dead wrong. Clearly you can get more efficiency and therefore lower total emissions by burning the fuel directly where its power is needed... at the car... so long as certain inefficient conventions are addressed and modified. Hybrids are doing this reasonably well in around-town situations, but highway is different.

As a nation we are a bunch of highway drivers. Some of us can justify having more than one car... one for around town, the other for travel. But for most people they need to get along with one car which can do both well.

But nowadays the politics and politicians are in on the act and so they will not stand for confusing the issue with the simple facts and common sense.



One amazing thing is it is the same amount of energy you pump into your family sedan in ten minutes at the end of along drive as in the giant charging circuit example when you refuel. The next time you fill up imagine instead of the rubber hose in your hand that you are holding a 200 amp 4kV electric cable. WOW! So if soccer moms can pump gas relatively safely, maybe someday someone will solve the enormous charger thing.

[In Memory Walter K]

The first electrocution will be shocking!

[Harry Babb]

Dang Peter that's a good read....in fact tonight I will read it several more times....good info......thanks for sharing.

In response to the Deep Throaty rumble of Cubic inches I have to tell you that the one thing I am gonna miss when and if I ever get DeNada back in the water....and that is the hair raising goose bump feeling of 2 quadajunks bellowing at the same time....burning enormous quantities of petrol.....love that sound! ! ! Hate it at the pump! ! !

I have to say that I really respect you guys that understand the Electrical Stuff......that is my biggest weakness.....

hb

[Rocket]

Peter, I suspect my IQ is approximately the square root of yours, but one comment did not make sense to me

Clearly you can get more efficiency and therefore lower total emissions by burning the fuel directly where its power is needed... at the car...

I believe that power can be produced more effeciently at a stationary large capacity powerplant using coal, oil or natural gas to power highly effecient turbines or hydroelectric (in the my region over 90% of our electricity is hydro) or even Waste to Energy (incinerating garbage).

Having said that, one of the big effeciency gains of the electric car and hybrids, for that matter, is they don't run when they are stopped. We have a diesel/electric hybrid truck in our fleet and when we were comparing it to an identical conventional truck on an identical route we were able to see a 33% reduction in fuel consumption which roughly correlated to the reduction in engine running hours!

[Carl]

Just to toss a log on the fire...it wasn't too long ago that Natural Gas was the NEW FUEL of choice. Clean and we have a huge supply. Cars and trucks where being converted over without to much of a fuss...our Mail Delivery Vehicles where all converted here on the Island. My customer was gearing up to be huge...but it all died in its tracks...lots of stories, but from what I gathered it would stay small as Fueling stations slated to be built where put on hold...with no fueling stations nobody wanted to convert...so other then a bunch of Fleet Vehicles it all fell apart.

Electric is nice...clean for the end user, recharge at home...but a last minute long trip becomes problematic without a way to recharge on the go.

[Peter]

Steady state to steady state... as in running for a couple of hours along at higway speed, if you have to make the power from oil or gas or coal somewhere else and then transmit it to the charging station and then charge the battery..... And then discharge the battery locally in the car to run the electric motor to move the car along.... the cost of making the electricity at a remote location is multiple inefficiencies. You will burn more fuel at the regional power plant than if you just had a conventional car with a decent engine

**

Of course there is the whole discussion of neuclear or hydro power or commercial wind or solar and other renewable sources of electricity that may be used at a regional power plant that are not fossil based.... but much of our power still comes from coal, natural gas, and oil products, all of which can be used to burn directly in a car motor except coal which requires a gasification process first.

**

Where the regional power plant has the edge over the present automobile is that the power plant is running at steady state pretty much all the time.

Meanwhile over in the car during city driving the engine is idling at stoplights and then revving up to make big power on the green.... and then all that power is wasted as heat and dust in wearing down brake pads at the next stop light.

So in the car the two issues that hurt your fuel efficiency in city traffic are that you are making gobs of power that you never recover.... stop light to stop light, or up hill to down, and to a much lesser extent running at idle when no power is required.


Next it is a fact of thermodynamic life that the slower and steadier you make the power the more fuel efficient it is. This is one of many reasons why a slow turning high torque Diesel is more fuel efficient than a high revving gasser of the same horse power... (there are some other reasons for that as well.....) It is also a big contributing factor as to why trains are so efficient. Once you get them moving you steadily just put in enough power to keep them going for hours on end. The point here is that intermittent high demands for power on the autombile engine during acceleration, interspersed with times of no demand whatsoever isn't a very fuel efficient program.

If you could run your motor in your car at a steady state that represented the constant demand for a set amount of power all the time, like in highway driving when the road is flat and there is no traffic... that is going to be more efficient than zooming up to speed and then coasting down over and over again.... which as it so happens is just like city driving.

Now the hybrids are onto something because they do a couple of things to steady out the city zoom and coast thing.

First off they recaputre some of the energy used to accelerate by using regenerative braking. (So does a plug-in electric these days)

Next an at times when the battery is becoming depleted hybrids allow the engine to putter along at a lope even when the car is stopped, putting out just enough HP to keep putting a charge into the battery. This is good if you happen to be stopping a lot.

However on a long straight open highway everytihg still comes down to steady state and the little gas motor in a hybrid still has to make the 35 HP continuously to keep the battery charged to keep you moving along at highway speeds..... so it will burn about the same amount of fuel on a long highway trip as a conventional car.

In this regard a hybrid has the theoretical ability to beat the pure gasser or plug-in electric in terms of fuel efficiency day-to-day, but only in mixed use (some highway and lots of city) because 1) they manage to smooth out the zoom and brake thing; 2) they recapture some energy in braking, and 3) they cut out the whole "generate electricity over there and transmit it over here and change voltages a few times to charge the batteries" problems.

This also explains why you will never see a plug in electric 18 wheeler long haul truck.....

However trains are essentially hybrids! Yep.. they run Diesels to generate electricity to run their electric traction motors and then they recaputure energy while braking.... so it is possible that some day not too far off you will see a Diesel electric long haul truck...

But that doesn't change the fact that making the electricity over there at a power plant and and transmitting it over here to charge a battery so that you can discharge the battery later to make motion can never be as fuel efficient as simply burning the fuel over here (in a smarter way that we currently do) to make motion you desire.

Peter

[Peter]

Sim;

I was in Cali about '91. Back then they were pressing hard for zero emission vehicles... i.e. pure plug in electric cars. In fact I believe they were trying to insist that every manufacturer offer at least one if they wanted to sell cars in Cali... Not hybrids. mind you , but pure plug in electrics.

One solution was to offer a trailer you towed behind with a generator!

Seriously!

Peter

[Rocket]

Thanks for the explanation Peter. Our hybrid truck ( we have actually ordered four more) is definately a city beast, we typically put on 10,000 hours but only 100,000 miles in 5 years of use. Alot of those are stationary while running a hydraulic pump and that is where the hybrid seems to really shine - running the hydraulics with the battery, never having the diesel kick in.

If I get this all right, maybe one day I can afford a Tesla! A friend of mine has one and says it is the only machine he has ever loved!

[Carl]

Sim;

I was in Cali about '91. Back then they were pressing hard for zero emission vehicles... i.e. pure plug in electric cars. In fact I believe they were trying to insist that every manufacturer offer at least one if they wanted to sell cars in Cali... Not hybrids. mind you , but pure plug in electrics.

One solution was to offer a trailer you towed behind with a generator!

Seriously!

Peter

Yup I recall those days....had a customer with an idea that he thought would beat out all the cars he had read about in the car magazines...so he built his own electric car, A Honda body, special batteries, his own transmission and brought it to one of the "Competitions". He tells me he blew away the Big Car companies, he went faster, further... he saw dollar signs headed his way...that was till he realized nobody really gave a crap...seems they only showed up to compete as they had to and nobody but nobody cared...almost got the feeling they wanted to be a bust.

So yes I believe a car towing a generator would be considered a viable option those days.

[coolair]

Ya but what happened to propane?
I remember where my dad used to work when i was a kid they had alot of trucking running it, and it was great. But it just went away..
I have still looked at converting our trucks to propane. The problem is the cost would be over $6k and at that point you can buy a truck with a diesel.

[Joef]

I was reading all these posts and wondered if people got together back int eh early 1900s and chatted about the pro's and con's of a horse vs car. I'll bet people were just as animated. ...why would anyone want a car anyway?...it gets tuck in the mud, where you gonna buy gas for it? you can only drive it on roads...and ther aren't any roads where i live. You can go buy that stupid little toy car...i'll stick with my horse.

Whatever happens, we shoudl all be careful to never say never...with the electric car or anything else. when i was 5 i would watch the jetsons and think those TV telephones that were plugged into the wall of their kitchen was so cool and so impossible, and yet i now watch my 4 year old daughter speak in live video with her grandfather in Brazil over my $200 cellphone...just incredible really.

Joe

[Carl]

I was reading all these posts and wondered if people got together back int eh early 1900s and chatted about the pro's and con's of a horse vs car. I'll bet people were just as animated. ...why would anyone want a car anyway?...it gets tuck in the mud, where you gonna buy gas for it? you can only drive it on roads...and ther aren't any roads where i live. You can go buy that stupid little toy car...i'll stick with my horse.

Whatever happens, we shoudl all be careful to never say never...with the electric car or anything else. when i was 5 i would watch the jetsons and think those TV telephones that were plugged into the wall of their kitchen was so cool and so impossible, and yet i now watch my 4 year old daughter speak in live video with her grandfather in Brazil over my $200 cellphone...just incredible really.

Joe

Joe,
You have a good point about never saying never.

But a step to reality... there are lots of people tied to keeping Fossil fuels at the front of the pack. Aside from the huge companies profiting for the sales... our government has a pretty steep tax incentive to keep these fuels flowing...I don't care what they say they want...those gas taxes are one hell of an incentive.

That said Electric cars have come a long way...I just don't see it as being a main source of transportation just yet...getting close though and with the styling of the Tesla it's more attractive.

The Hybrids are a good combination..although I see them as too pricey to justify the expense and when you factor in Battery replacement and service after warrantee issues...again just not there yet. But getting close

[Capt. Mike Holmes]

My replacement "boat" right now is a hopped up golf cart. I replaced the stock motor with a higher torque model, all wiring and electrical components with heavy duty stuff, added a receiver trailer hitch, gun racks, and other hunting equipment. It was lifted 6" and had big tires when I got it. I love the thing! It's a work buggy, and I haul stuff, pull stuff, go through mud and sand. The batteries were a little old when I got it 3 or 4 years ago, and not the most expensive brands, but are still going strong. I get a lot more use between charges than I think I should. I did a test a couple of years ago on a Stealth 4wd electric buggy that was so impressive my wife had to get stern with me so I wouldn't try to keep it. If electric cars ever become as practical as these "vehicles" I'll be in line for one! Won't replace my 1 ton, dually, 4wd diesel truck anytime soon, but could be a very practical commuter.

[JohnCranston]

Mike,
What the hell have you been up to? I've been wondering about you. Everything ok?

John.

[Capt. Mike Holmes]

John, I been huntin'. Killed a bunch of pigs and a few deer on my little woods place, got coyotes and bobcats, as well. Damn zoo out there. Been having trouble with thieves and trespassers. Broke into my 30' camp trailer a couple of times, stole a new TV, bunch of small stuff, damaged other things. Pretty much knew it was the kids across the county road, but couldn't prove it. Last incident they stole all my game cameras, then broke a window in the camper because they couldn't defeat the new locks I added to the doors. Didn't know I had an alarm system installed, so they ran away when it went off. One kid hid the cameras in the brush alongside the driveway, but left one of them turned on, with the SD card in place - and I found them 2 days later. Had a perfect picture of him sitting it down - with the other cameras under his arm. When I gave it to the sheriff I titled it, "Self Portrait of a Dumb - Ass". He is 16, the others 16 or 17, looks like - all have experience with law enforcement. Now I am trying to get them punished, recover my losses. Insurance company isn't paying crap, county is trying to get my money from the kid's parents, Uncle Vic is gonna walk me through suing their butts. Always something, huh?

Still got that pretty boat? Still have the house in Hide-a-way? I need to sell my Turtle Cove lot, if you know anybody that might be interested.

[JohnCranston]

Mike,
You need to load up the shotgun with some rock salt and pepper their lil asses...that'll teach em. Sounds like you're enjoying the retired life. Reel Cowboy is over at Steve and Lisa's getting the fish boxes finished up. My phone broke a couple of years ago, and I lost your number. Give it to me so we can get caught up.
John.

[Capt. Mike Holmes]

I lost your number, also. Found it the other day, started to call, but wasn't sure it would be the same one anymore.

I am sure sure rock salt is the proper ammo to use on kids that are so drugged out they try to fight armed law enforcement officers. Might need to use something more lethal. Sad situation, but like I told the parents, I am NOT going to be paying for their kid='s drug habits.

Maybe we can go fishing some time, although I'm not sure i remember how to do it.

[Capt. Mike Holmes]

John, sorry I forgot the phone number in the previous post. Home number is still 979/415-0535. Cell is 281/814-1464.

[JohnCranston]

Mike,
I'll call you next week when I'm back in Freeport. Still remember how to drink beer? Fishin and drinkin are like riding a bike.
John.

[Capt. Mike Holmes]

Drink beer? I don't know if i can come over if there's gonna be any drinking involved!

I'll be around next week, as far as I know.

[Face]

To quote Peter: "AND we still have not discussed losses from converting from fossil fuel at the power plant, to high voltage electricity for long distance transmission, to lower voltage electricity in the home, to chemical storage in the battery, all just to charge.

Followed by the next layer of losses to convert back from chemical energy stored in the battery to electrical energy to feed the car motor, and then to mechanical motion in the car."

I think this is the biggest draw back to the whole electric car scenario. The manufacturers pushing these new technologies market them under the guise of it being "Green". This is a major environmental fallacy and people are ignorant enough to take these words at face value.

These are basically coal-burning cars, and more importantly INEFFICIENT coal-burning cars. Probably fun as hell to accelerate though.

This is the same major reason I argue against the so-called "green" hydrogen fuel-cell concept. "The only by-product is water." Yes, and the smog produced at our coal-burning power plants that generated the electricity to separate hydrogen from water and then lose a percentage of its energy when converted. Not to mention transporting the coal, hydrogen, etc and on and on it goes.
-Joe

[PeterPalmieri]

Did some research over the weekend on electric cars.
The chevy volt 40 miles on electric also has a gas motor.
Nissan leaf 100 miles and then plug in.

Not enough range to interest me, as I commute 70 miles per day. Leaves little to no wiggle room. The tesla has options for 200-300 miles per plug in. Very cool looks and very expensive.

Potentially you could have solar power on the roof of the garage to recharge, run the house or sell back to the utility, not sure how much is needed but that would be a "green" option.

Certainly seems like travelling 100 miles on electric is cheaper then gas, not sure about being green. But most have no interest in converting unless it means money in your pocket.

I want to see an electric car that can go 300 miles on a charge (normal gas range), mid sized sedan (not a tin can with wheels) and is priced under 35k.