What size battery cables

daydreams · Post by **daydreams** » May 12th, '11, 11:12

Hi everyone. I have not been on this site for a while.
I hope everyone is doing well.
After about 5 years the 28 bertram is finally ready for the water.
It actually went in last year for about a month at the end of the season to get the bugs out.
Luckily all went well.
I am adding a 3rd battery with a charging relay for my electronics.
Currently the boat has old 2/0 welding cable on the existing batterys.
The chaging system is believed to be rated at 55 amps.
The engines are 350's.
What size battery cable should I use for the 3rd battery and eventually I want to change all of the cables?
What size fuse should I use for the relay [I was thinking the Blue Seas MRBF type?

Thanks in advance
Gary

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » May 12th, '11, 11:44

I got some sage advice years ago to find a battery shop that would make up cables and get them to make your cables out of #4 welding cable. Never had a problem since, and I have diesels. With the current price of copper, be prepared to pay a bunch, but they are worth it - very flexible and stand up much better than the off-the-shelf stuff. Most battery places will make them up with a little friendly coaxing and maybe a bottle of whiskey or a fishing trip promise to grease the skids.

UV

Charlie J · Post by **Charlie J** » May 12th, '11, 13:14

gary
sent you a pm with my cell #

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » May 12th, '11, 14:17

http://cgi.ebay.com/50-FT-4-Welding-Cab ... 7009032206

daydreams · Post by **daydreams** » May 12th, '11, 19:36

Thanks. what a great group of people and web site.
Thanks everyone esp. Capt P.

Daydreams / Gary

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » May 12th, '11, 21:44

http://shop.genuinedealz.com/Marine%20G ... able%20UL/

Close to $10 a foot at Genuinedealz. The Ebay item is cheap.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 12th, '11, 22:23

the e-bay item is # 4 ga. used for the "stinger" lead on a electric welder while the link tony put us on is the real deal that is 4/0 tined copper, big big differance.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » May 13th, '11, 07:10

Don't use any wire but tinned.

AndreF · Post by **AndreF** » May 13th, '11, 08:28

I have all 1/0 welding cables.

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » May 13th, '11, 11:47

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1-0-AWG- ... iesQ5fGear

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2-0-AWG- ... iesQ5fGear

This one may be too good to be true:

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_from=R40&_ ... Categories

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » May 13th, '11, 14:23

On a separate note (which may cause much debate) do you crimp, solder or both on your battery cables? I am a little conflicted. All of the ones on the boat a crimped with my hex crimper. I am sure that the ABYC code (or whatever it is called now) probably says to crimp.

On some of my tractors I have soldered the cables. There is a lot of debate on the farm forums about which is better. Crimped will hold no matter what the heat, but can be prone to corrosion. I use Anchor heat shrink tape on them. Soldered won't corrode, but some worry about it melting under lengthy cranking. I am of the opinion that soldered will act as a large fuse to prevent fire. If you are producing enough heat to melt solder, you need to interrupt the circuit!!

What do you guys think?

Capt.Frank · Post by **Capt.Frank** » May 13th, '11, 14:37

I soider with heat shrink (ancor because heavy and glue inside, most of the others I have found have been thin). I agree if soider melts then you have a bigger issue especialy with 2/0 wire.
Tinned wire only.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 13th, '11, 16:23

the only allowable in the absolute strictest conditions and the last resort before thousands could die in the faa control center and battery back up at 750 volts (thats a hell of a bunch of 1.2 edison cells link together) .to pull rods out of nuclear reactor when generators don`t start .must be crimped with closed type eye lug from thomas& betts . 15 ton head with hexagon die to crimp evenly . then shrink tubes . penetrox paste inside lug before crimp. i have the tool and all dies from # 6 to 500mcm. if you are in driving distance i will do it for you. tool is $3000.00 cannot loan out.
join batterys where needed like house with 2/0 and 4/0 there after.

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » May 13th, '11, 16:49

Bob - now that's top notch stuff there. Question about the Odyessy batteries - Andre' has them too....I have two 8-Ds that are conventional sealed lead acids that weigh in the range of 175# each and are huge. They were put in new in June of 2006 as AJ was coming out of the yard following repairs of Katrina damage. They are still fine, but I know they gonna crap out bye and bye, and I'd like to convert to the Odyessy.

Does Odyessy make one battery that is more or less a direct replacement for an 8-D or is it necessary to double them up? Second question - is your experience that they last as long as the maker claims?

Thanks,

UV

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 13th, '11, 17:18

i just want you to know vic you are my hero ,with your condition putting one off the 8d in the hole would kill me God bless you. one of these lightweight odyssey battery (size 2150) is equal in amperage to a 8d but will last much longer in cranking time . they are the only fiberglass battery reconize buy the feds ,yea this is the ones in those Navy Seals ribs you see on tv.they are rated for 10 years under constant use one set here is 10 years old the other is 6 years old , both sets under voltage meter on electrical panel read the same. they can be mounted anyway you want including upside down. the termination are under nut not ring terminals are exactly like i install them 10 years ago and never been out of boat 0 corrosion-------------no acid!

Capt.Frank · Post by **Capt.Frank** » May 13th, '11, 20:50

Bob, is that one battery for each motor and 2 for the house?

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 13th, '11, 22:43

yes frank one isolated battery for each engine and two for house. generator starts on house battery the two engine batteries on connected to a 600amp relay which keeps isolation but can in extreme be connected. when you plan these systems you just stand back and draw on paper before you comit yourself like i have a true charge 40 amp battery charger that has three isolated outputs this made job easier to follow thru each charging circuit output goes to a 40 amp circuit breaker and then on to the three isolation diodes. not that hard till i came to the fuel gauge which has a seperate feed off house battery bank.all other gauge only power from there respective engine. here is the power distribution center under saloon seat there is no wiring in engine compartment except engine harness and 120v dedicated out for block heater.only 1 fuse on boat and that is here for bilge pump panel.bulkhead is closed off from cockpit so always dry here..

daydreams · Post by **daydreams** » May 15th, '11, 15:21

Thanks everyone for the replies.
Rawleigh, I looked at the web address. the one that sounds to good to be true may be. If you look at the picture closely I think I see #8 on one and #4 on the other.

I am thinking about the welder cable but I 'm afraid of #4 cable if the engine is over heated or a starter fails I am afraid I will melt wires, etc.
For now I will do the electronics battery with # 2 or 4 cable and keep the # 0/2 weding cable that I have for this year.
The connections are good the insulation is cracked.
I slipped a clear vinyl water line type hose over it for this year.
Thanks again.

Gary / Daydreams

Chanse · Post by **Chanse** » May 16th, '11, 00:14

just finished building my batt boxes and
I'm now ready to replace my Batt cables there are (9) total
all marked Locomotive 1AWG 90 Degree C 1KV. these are most
likley the original cables. I have a B26 twin chev L6's, two 27series, guest
on/off with a batt parallel system.
Do I replace with 1AWG or 1/0AWG tinned copper Marine cable?
or is there something I should be looking for?

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » May 16th, '11, 10:47

Gary...
Chance...

I don't disagree with anything anyone said above, but having recently rebuilt my 12 volt main panel and battery setup in the engine room of my B33 I think you might want to take a look at what I did.

You can see a writeup I did in the Owner Tips section of the Bertram 33 site...

- Go to Bertram33.com
- In the blue vertical menu bar to the left click on "Owner Tips"
- Then click on "FB's Phoenix Rebuild"
- Then click on the "12 Volt System Rebuild" (It may take a few seconds for the file to download)

There you will find a complete summary of everything I did, including several pictures.

I used 2/0 welding cable, which is not tinned. I certainly agree that tinned copper conductors are the best for a boat, but I found it so scarce and expensive here that I decided to use welding cable, but I sealed each end in order to keep the conductors away from the salt water environment. I did this by using solid copper compression fittings (which I bought from my local Batteries Plus store, along with the cable). You will find my technique for attaching and sealing the fittings to the cable in the writeup. Once applied, and sealed with shrinkwrap, the end fittings are strong and sealed.

If for any reason you can't get to the writeup following the above directions send me an email and I will send you a file of it in Word.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 16th, '11, 11:39

wow,wow i cannot belive this post ; chanse i have no idea how you could have possibly got your hands on that cable but please don`t tell us!!!!!! lets say you stumble apon a f-14tomcat or f-18 hornet abandon somewhere and leave it at that. i never mention what all my battery cable were i just mention you should use 4/0 tined copper for main run from battery or battery bank to main switch and 4/0 to starter motor on diesel.i have the same cable in my boat for the entire battery system both to and from . look at the photo that it. your 1awg cable is find strand then bundled and coated with siver and then bundle are bundle again 1awg is equivalant to 2/0 awg ordinary tinned marine battery cable. IF you could buy it it would coat 10.00 a foot. "when they hit the switch that fighter has to start although sitting on a carrier deck under servere salt water conditions. 1000 volt rating on insulation should tell you something.

Chanse · Post by **Chanse** » May 16th, '11, 14:27

CaptBob are you saying that 2/0 AWG would be the equivilent in size to 1AWG Locomotive 90 deg C1kv?
The ends are showing lots of corrosion maybe I should cut them off and have someone crimp new tinned lugs. Don't know whats inside I had assumed there would be corrosion also.
Not turning big engines but would like to keep the standards that are there not go backwards. Greg's Marine Wire sells 2/0 AWG Tinned Marine Batt cable $5.39/25' $130 and can crimp tinned copper lugs.
PS,spent a couple of years on a carrier.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 16th, '11, 15:27

thats exactly what i am saying after 1awg there will be federal spec. # e 104-----------. didn`t that cable feel very strange like you could tie a fishing knot in size 1awg!!!! you could put that underwater for years take it out and use it or you could expose it to the sun forever.there is no comparing it to marine battery cable so this post ONLY applys to you .the corrosion is from terminal and yes recrimp with penetrox in eye terminal.b.t.w. the other battery cable on those planes have 2000volt rating and can be terminated 180 degrees and never chaffe. given the battery power you could start 10 chevy l-6 with those cables. work with what you have do not replace.

Chanse · Post by **Chanse** » May 16th, '11, 16:40

Thank you for the reply and the info. I will work with these and find a guy to crimp on some tinned copper lugs. These cables feel real heavy. I can't see the ability to tie any knots it would be like working with 3/4 or 1" stiff old nylon.

AndreF · Post by **AndreF** » May 16th, '11, 17:44

Be careful as to how far up the corrosion goes.
My welding cables say 1/0 AWG 600 volt 105 degree C
P-241-3-MSHA Coleman Cable- Made in the USA. I can tie it in a knot the size of a baseball.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 16th, '11, 17:52

andre that is conventional welding cable you should also use penetrox at the termination. can be purchase at any electrical supply house . the other cable is even more flexible because of outside jacket insulation.

Chanse · Post by **Chanse** » May 16th, '11, 23:09

Googled 1 AWG Locomotive cable, seems like there are a number of places that carry it and in various sizes. One was a WesBell electronics that prices it at $3.25 a foot, I don't know if you have to buy 250'. states 24 tinned copper strands, heaver than welding cable, very flexible.
Interesting, cheaper than marine cable. Itâ€™s referred to as DLO, Diesel Locomotive Cable, Delco shows it on there site also.

This stuff was in my boat when I bought it, I always assumed thatâ€™s what Bertram used. The guy I bought the boat (2nd owner) never did anything so the original owner who was a boat salesman would know except his bones are rolling around at the bottom of Lake Michigan he went down with 3 other salesman returning to BayHaven marine from a boat show in Chicago running a Trojan 32 in heavy weather.

CamB25 · Post by **CamB25** » May 17th, '11, 07:57

Exane is the defacto standard in the transit railcar and locomotive industries, though similar product is available from other suppliers.

some data: http://www.electrowire.com/exane-1068a-2000v/

The tinning spec is ASTMB33.

We use these multiple strand cable in areas of high vibration and where relative motion is present, i.e. between carbodies and trucks. Tinning is obviously for corrosion resistance. # strands is proportional to the minimum bend radius. I have used 1/0 through 777MCM in different applications.

Seems like overkill to me for a boat application where vibration is minimal (compared to a railcar) and the wiring is secured throughout the run, but if the price is right, go for it! It's the heavy duty choice!

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 17th, '11, 08:36

for all intent and purpose definitly better then welding cable because it is tined . 2000 volt rated cable also has ava # looks pretty much the same but as i said bundled and then bundle again silver coated . i am very familar with diesel locomotive cable . listed in my bible NEC for electrical contractor and used when impossible to run larger conduit , we could double the amperage with same size pipe .4/0 dlo is the equal in amperage rating as 500 mcm -----400 ampere rated. all large electrical services are rated in terms of 800/1200/1600 so it was ideal. overkill i don`t thing so at the same cost as marine tinned cable with far better uv proof insulation / vibration resistance /better bending radius and most of all in case of starter motor short with 1000 volt rated cable insulation will take instantaneous overheat.i have shown my cummins 315hp start to at least 10 people on this board.starts in 1 second ,you cannot look at harmonic balancer and see movement it is this type cable in the ava style plus fiberglass matt batterys that does it. anal --perhaps but what if weak battery off shore due to leaving radar on or whatever. trust me great insurance at the same price!

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » May 17th, '11, 09:03

Bob: How about soldering the terminal after crimping to seal out all moisture and then adding Anchor Heat Shrink tubing? Wouldn't that work well on a boat to avoid corrosion?

Charlie J · Post by **Charlie J** » May 17th, '11, 09:06

rawleigh
penatrox, crimp, shrink tube, your set

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » May 17th, '11, 09:19

Got it.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 17th, '11, 09:31

rawleigh you can do one procedure or the other but not both. here on long island we had to built a new railroad bridge over a channel in the least amount of time so they floated a bridge from florida up here on barges and lower into place at low tide then ran tracks over it, each termination (triple 750mcm) we installed 750 lugs turn upside down and filled with lead then schink tube and bolted to track.this termination to the 3rd rail is exposed to salt water/weather 24/7 but you cannot crimp with penetrox and solder one or the other.everybody has there own opinion on 31 bertram related subjects however i feel battery cables/battery choice is one of the most important boating subjects of those whom go offshore or those whom have there loved ones at stake.click-click is the worst sound you could ever hear on a boat.

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » May 18th, '11, 10:54

I love all of the free experience I can tap into on this board! Everybody freely shares advice without making the person asking feel dumb. It is unlike so many other sites I visit in that regard. Thanks.

ianupton · Post by **ianupton** » May 18th, '11, 15:45

For my Bertram 20 project I purchased 1/0 AWG marine battery cable from Genuinedealz.com.

I can't remember the price, but it was reasonable.

My batteries will be less than 3' from the front of the engine. I'll most likely be cranking a 4.3 V6 although a small diesel (D3) would be really cool.

I was told this was complete overkill. I was told most would have used 4 AWG or possibly 2 AWG.

I like the thought of paying for it once and never thinking about it again.

Ian.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » May 18th, '11, 21:58

Rawleigh wrote:I love all of the free experience I can tap into on this board! Everybody freely shares advice without making the person asking feel dumb. It is unlike so many other sites I visit in that regard. Thanks.

What Rawleigh said. The other boards are full of know it all's who really offer no help, just criticism. Plus I find once they find out you own a Bert, they start telling you how crappy it is.

JohnD · Post by **JohnD** » May 18th, '11, 22:24

Durning my repower I didn't consider battery cable type/size, length, location and such. So I got real surprised that it was over $2500 just in materials to run the 5ft or so from the battery location in front of the motors with cable big enough to turn the 3126's. Just another one of those unexpected repower costs..

So, I'd say take a look at length of cable runs to the starters/switches and make the runs as short as possible. Take Bob's and the others advice on what type of wire to use.

I also like the idea of getting rid of those 8D monsters...

br,
JohnD

bertram31.com

What size battery cables

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