Boat Handling in Adverse Conditions

Sean B · Post by **Sean B** » Sep 9th, '10, 20:04

Poor fellow, it's almost as if the sea just decided to swallow him whole, right then and there.

My neighborhood inlet, Sebastian Inlet, often does the same sort of thing. It's especially bad when you have big swells coming in from the east and a strong outgoing tide... in that skinny inlet the outgoing tide can run at 8 knots. Those two forces collide right at the mouth of the inlet and it can be real nasty stuff, on a day when the seas were otherwise uneventful offshore. Coming in on days like that can be a little precarious. Have seen St. Lucie/Stuart and Hillsboro Inlets act the same sort of way too (never been through Jupiter though).

I say all this because I have a question for all you more-experienced-than-me boat guys. You guys talk a lot about the B31 being exceptional in a following sea. Well the B33, not so much. Any kind of head sea and the boat is awesome. In a following sea there is a lot of course correcting, and in a stern quarter sea my ass gets pushed around all the time and I'm constantly correcting, unless I'm running at cruise speeds (and even then some).

The "local wisdom" I always hear about running Sebastian Inlet when it's rough is to charge in fast through the large waves that form at the inlet mouth, which sometimes almost seem like big standing waves, but most often are big breakers breaking in unpredictable patterns.

To me, charging through these conditions seems like a recipe to someday stuff the bow or worse, broach the boat and roll it over. However I see guys doing this all the time, though that inlet, and have never seen anyone get into trouble (although I know there are many sunken boats in that inlet). Many times the more impatient Florida cracker types will whiz right by me at 20k plus in their much smaller boats, and it's quite a show watching them pitch and pound through the inlet breakers. Looks like "Victory at Sea" day.

My approach to entering this or any inlet in big following seas has been to slow down when I get close, to the point where the waves are going just a bit faster than I am, and let the big following waves slowly pass beneath me as I slowly make my way to the point where they start breaking. Also it is much easier to maintain course this way (as opposed to running faster than the waves), even in a quartering sea. When I get to the point that a wave is breaking just at my bow and the water looks smooth in front of it, I goose up the throttles and take off. Have made many uneventful passes through some very rough shit this way.

I'm no expert - have no training, and consider myself an amateur boat handler, and yet I choose to buck the "local wisdom" of charging in through the breakers at Sebastian as so many have told me to do.

So my quesiton is... am I doing it right or what?

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Sep 9th, '10, 20:49

Sad to see such a highly regarded captain lose his life because of a single
act of nature. But, it could happen to any of us!

Sean...
This discussion would probably be better suited for the B33 forum, but just a quick comment from me to respond to your note above. The rudders on my FBC are custom made, and from the other B33s if have seen on the hard, they are about 2-3 times the surface area of the stock rudders. While I haven't yet been in huge following seas with "Phoenix" I can say that with one engine I have run about 12 miles with a wire crab pot wrapped around the other prop, without any problems of control, while other B33 owners have told me they can barely control their boat with one engine.

I also have read about the larger area rudders Capt Pat builds for the B31s. I suspect Bertram's stock rudders are in general undersized for heavy following seas.

Another note.. before I bought a B33 I looked at a lot of other boats.. and saw an ex charter boat, with single screw, but with two rudders spaced about 20" apart. When I asked about this, because being from New England where we have few serious inlets I had never seen this before, I was told in some locales this was a common feature on single screw boats so they have better control when returning through some inlets.

Sean B · Post by **Sean B** » Sep 9th, '10, 21:00

I think my rudders are good. I can run the boat just fine on one engine

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Sep 9th, '10, 21:05

My rudders are stock. I have not gotten Capt Pats for reasons I cant talk about. When I run in big waves on my stern they work great. The inlet here is no joke in a SE swell. I have heard on the radio people say "He is crazy coming in in those waves". At speed its llike its on tracks. On one engine its death. I tow a 5 gal bucket off that side to make it work.

Sean B · Post by **Sean B** » Sep 9th, '10, 21:16

Brewster Minton wrote:My rudders are stock. I have not gotten Capt Pats for reasons I cant talk about. When I run in big waves on my stern they work great. The inlet here is no joke in a SE swell. I have heard on the radio people say "He is crazy coming in in those waves". At speed its llike its on tracks. On one engine its death. I tow a 5 gal bucket off that side to make it work.

Love to hear about Bertrams doing things that other boaters are scared of. So okay, when you run in with the following seas, how fast do you do it?

"reasons I cant talk about"... that is a very curious thing to say

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Sep 9th, '10, 21:58

Sean

I am sure everyone will have a differing opinion on how to run them, but when Barnegat Inlet was a nightmare, I always used to time the waves and try and stay on the back of the wave in front of me until it broke. Once it broke, I would scoot through it, but by then I was just passing the north jetty were they would just reform into a swell.

Of course if the one behind me started to catch up you would have no choice but to try and outrun it.

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Sep 10th, '10, 00:22

Sean,

I've seen some pretty experienced guys who have boats that suck in a following sea, come in through the inlet........backwards. They simply let the waves break over the bow while backing down sea.

Charlie J · Post by **Charlie J** » Sep 10th, '10, 05:19

mike dick and i blew thru 3 breakers coming back from greenport in shinacock, the guy in the carolina 31 just looked at me like i was crazy, but normaly when running back in jones and there are breakers iam on and off the throttles pushing over and down the waves

John Brownlee · Post by **John Brownlee** » Sep 10th, '10, 07:54

Mike:

Backing into a nasty inlet is one recommended way to do it, and much safer. The worst that will happen to you is you'll take one over the bow which is no big deal in most cases.

JB

Sean B · Post by **Sean B** » Sep 10th, '10, 08:02

mike ohlstein wrote:I've seen some pretty experienced guys who have boats that suck in a following sea, come in through the inlet........backwards. They simply let the waves break over the bow while backing down sea.

That's interesting - never thought of that. However I don't think I'll don't be trying that, and I don't think I really need to either. The boat is really not that bad in following sea. At cruise speeds it runs fine - but following seas push it around at slower speeds though. However I'm not going to go crashing through 8 foot monster breaking inlet waves at cruise, for fear of one day ending up like our friend from Jupiter.

Question was not so much about following seas, but about running into inlets with enormous waves breaking at the entrance, without risking stuffing the bow or getting broached.

I imagine that the in-backwards approach could leave you in big trouble if trying to back into an inlet with a big current running out... would find yourself stopped by the outgoing current right at the spot where the waves are breaking, thus suddenly needing to spin around there against that current. Could always just run back out if that happened, but that won't get you home either.

Interesting but I think I'll pass on that maneuver, would choose the go-fast cracker method over that. I tried it once at Stuart just to learn what would happen... plowed into some huge inlet waves at cruise and the boat did just fine. Got wet, people and stuff got tossed around quite a bit, and the girl was pretty mad. Boat was fine though

Face · Post by **Face** » Sep 10th, '10, 13:28

Very sad indeed. Cliche to say, but great that this captain was doing what he loved for a living.

"This discussion would probably be better suited for the B33 forum"
Maybe so, but hopefully we can all become safer boaters with questions like these. I find the backwards trick very curious.
-Joe

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Sep 10th, '10, 15:25

Face...

My comment about this discussion perhaps being better suited for the B33 forum was only made because both Sean B and I have B33s, and I was referring only to our rudders. I can't speak for Sean but I personally have very little experience in B31s, and I didn't want anyone thinking I was being critical of what all here regard as the best boat ever built.

Also, I didn't want anyone thinking I was trying to hijack the post about such a sensitive subject as the loss of life of a fellow boat captain.

Face · Post by **Face** » Sep 10th, '10, 15:46

IR, fair enough and I didn't think the thread was being hijacked or even that you were implying a hijack. See how confusing this gets? It's tough to interpret context/intent sometimes online. I really mean it when I say I hope we can all learn from this. I think that applies to your 33's just the same. I'm sure this captain would agree.
-Joe

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Sep 10th, '10, 19:37

Sean B don`t change anything you have the correct approach stay with the wave as long as you possibly can with a following sea .if it breaks then let the next one come to the trasom and ride it in.Do not listen or watch others going fast over the crest of the waves , just plans stupid mother nature put enomous power in those 10' following seas. your method and the IR GUY are the way to go.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Sep 11th, '10, 11:29

bob lico wrote:Sean B don`t change anything you have the correct approach stay with the wave as long as you possibly can with a following sea .if it breaks then let the next one come to the trasom and ride it in.Do not listen or watch others going fast over the crest of the waves , just plans stupid mother nature put enomous power in those 10' following seas. your method and the IR GUY are the way to go.

But if it breaks and you wait for the next...isn't it going to break over your transom...as they tend to break in the same area? Or at that point you've moved up to the next area...or do you make sure you just stay ahead of the breaking point...if possible.

I have been lucky in that I have always been able to ride the back of the waves in far enough away from breaking water...we don't have an Ocean Inlet here so very little practice till I start to travel, and then when I travel I do so with the best forecasts...but that always seems to change. I understand the concepts...but till your "In it' and actually "Do it" its kind of difficult to speculate.

Charlie · Post by **Charlie** » Sep 11th, '10, 18:07

Sean i don't know how your boat is set-up; but if you have to much weight forward you will have handling problems like you mention. I know 35B's can get bow heavy from folks moving the genny to the front of the engine room, hanging a 200 pound liferaft on the bow, putting a water tank under the v-birth. Never have your trim tabs down when entering an inlet in a following sea. When I enter a bad inlet all I do is dump any trim tab and throttle up. If it is really bad I do the same thing you are doing. A few a years ago I shot Manasquan Inlet with hurricane flags flying. I just jumped on the back a big roller and rode her in. The Coast Guard had the inlet closed for exiting traffic; but they got out of the way when I made my approach.
Make sure you have not messed up your C of G with changes.
I knew of a 35B that had 500 pounds of lead next to the rudder posts because the guy messed with the center of gravity.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Sep 11th, '10, 18:44

sim don`t wait for the next wave give just enough speed to stay with it until it is under you. time your waves like a surfer. i have alot of experiance at this as a matter of fact i try to make a dangerous situation calm so the buyer of the multi engine center console builts confidents.now i am in a whole new world and very naive. i captain a 510 bertram with a tower to the stars i notice this individual falling and don`t know if he fell from the buggy top. enlighten me , do they navigate these said inlets in florida from the tower???? i known this sounds like BS but i feel alot safer in the 31 bertram then the 51' bertram coming in the inlet because if a stacked wave hit broadside that tower is tremendous leverage to roll the boat wareby my 31 will rise with the wave and i because the boat can turn on a dime it allows me to actually turn 90 degrees while being lifted . that picture harv posted of the CC boat going out the inlet was me several times already.the boat is incredible in the surf .please , please don`t ever attemp this with a pair of outboards on the transom!!!!

JohnCranston · Post by **JohnCranston** » Sep 11th, '10, 19:33

I'm with Tony and Bob on this one. Try to surf on in...try to stay in the sweet spot and not go over the falls and don't let one break over your transom. I'd rather come in on big swells then go out in them. The sound of white water on the way out still gives me the creeps.

Harv · Post by **Harv** » Sep 11th, '10, 20:16

I have always found it best to ride the back of a wave and keep it in front of me, as opposed to being a 31 foot surfboard. Here's one example...
Tropical Storm Fabian, about 5 years ago. Waves breaking over the jetty, Dad at the helm
Not the worst I've been through , but why take chances?

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mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Sep 11th, '10, 21:33

Bob,

If you see the full roll of photos it's clear that the captain was on the bridge, not in the tower. I believe that he was standing up, and just got pitched.

Sean B · Post by **Sean B** » Sep 12th, '10, 00:17

for some reaosn an old story about a ten foot pole comes to mind

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Sep 12th, '10, 08:29

I have been thru inlets in similar conditions to what Harv shows...mostly on the backs of the rollers. What concerns me is when it gets tighter or faster and you can't stay on the back of the roller and the one coming up behind you can't outrun...that scares the POOP out of me.

I do the wait for the pattern thing...and have been lucky in picking the correct time and not getting a rogue one tossed in...but figure one day the luck will run out. It sucks to have to do a trial and error with the family aboard. I learned to run in some real lousy conditions by going out by myself and figuring it out little by little...without an inlet it makes it difficult to learn by only going thru one once or twice a year. And then not really being able to pick the conditions...I leave with great reports...but after running a couple hours things can change when you get there...sometimes for the better...sometimes for the worse.

Harv...love hearing those 4 barrels open! Ever watch the Carb at WOT?? Like a hose shooting fuel into a vacuum cleaner...Its worse then watching the Flow Meter burying the needle.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Sep 12th, '10, 08:43

sim you have the idea fournately i never go out the inlet with my family women and children . unfoutunaly i have to play the inlet game every time i go fishing either moriches a complete nightmare with huge waves created by 3' of water or fire island with shoals all over the place creating whitewater. nightime is another story, the 31 you glance at the radar and see the unlighted bouy then as you get close you see that green bastard hiding in the dark ,the 510 is another story you don`t see it till you hit it because the bastard draws 5' and you have to be on the money ----tence

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Sep 12th, '10, 09:15

The only time I really run inlets is when we do the Family Vacation thing...like we did a few weeks ago out to Fire Island or a Weekend thing to Belmar or Manasquan. Otherwise, it's right out my harbor into Raritan Bay which is great fishing or a 10 mile run to open ocean and then another 10+ for inshore Tuna, shark etc.

Either way my wife loves to fish and be out on the boat so 9 out of 10 times I go, she goes and the kids get to come along.

My trip was fine...but a week later a dockmate went. The weather got progressively worse as he got closer to Fire Island inlet. I believe it was blowing 15-20 from the South with 3-4's. Going in on some big Rollers he stuffed the nose pretty bad on his 34' Cruiser. He thought it was over for him. Personally, I heard the forecast and thought he was foolish to leave in that...he figured it would lay down a bit...I am never so optimistic...especially with family aboard.

I wonder what I would have done if I had got their in those conditions...

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Sep 12th, '10, 10:14

I purchased my boat when I lived in Nassau county LI and decided to keep it 100 miles from my home in Montauk for just those reasons. Do we have rough waters? You bet! But no matter what the conditions, no inlet problems. I have never been sorry about that decision. Finally moved so the boat was only 20 miles away!

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Sep 12th, '10, 11:06

sim i through you would bring up another point but you didn`t so ; this may be somewhat counterintuitive and can be do with a 31 bertram with plenty of instant power and captain patrick`s rudders . sometimes bluefin tuna come in close and usually don`t stay in one spot to long right before they migrate with water getting colder . now you cast all kinds of fears or smart thinking aside and your going out that inlet in gale warnings. i do not ride the waves i resort back to race boat days when the thottle man will not back off and you have to drive or your fired .safe navigating is not a issue do or die. with huge following waves i go over the top turn hard sideways and run in the trough as the next wave is about to bury me i tranverse and drop the hammer as i crest i turn opposite the proceding wave to stay on course .you have to have instant stopping power,instant acceration and must of all turn on it`s own axis. needless to say with the 51' you cast your faith to the wind and ride the waves as mention above.i wanted to demostrate to both you and brother harry at greenport on my boat but you were among the missing.perhaps next year-------no family on boat of course.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Sep 12th, '10, 11:43

I have come in from offshore in some real big seas doing something very similar, couldn't run up the back sides of the waves...not enough power and I was pointed straight up, couldn't see anything coming up in front of me, so I just ran the troughs and tacked my way in...but waves spaced far apart ...no breakers and lots of room to maneuver.

I wanted to do Greenport..but with only 1 week off this year and the family and friends all giving the thumbs up for Fire Island for that week...thats where we went. It's been years since we did Watch Hill and I'll admit it was a blast...not too many Flies, had the place to ourselves during the week along with perfect weather. My girls really enjoyed.
I'll make a rendezvous someday, seems to always be feast or famine...

Sean B · Post by **Sean B** » Sep 12th, '10, 14:33

Hey Bob, two things:
#1) You're nuts.
#2) I really want to go on a boat ride with you someday.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Sep 12th, '10, 16:47

mike ohlstein wrote:Sean,

I've seen some pretty experienced guys who have boats that suck in a following sea, come in through the inlet........backwards. They simply let the waves break over the bow while backing down sea.

Pats dones this.......not on purpose though.

I've found on following seas that many people run tabs down which can exagerate the problems.

Some of those boats with the tabs up, have performed much better.

bertram31.com

Boat Handling in Adverse Conditions

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