Offshore late November with fuel problems

[MikeD@Lightningshack]

Guys,
I ran out 96nm from Manasqun inlet on Saturday for a late November Bluefin trip. Conditions were great, but fishing was poor. (very poor, not a touch)

Beyond that, after running 96 n-miles the LightningShack started to sputter a little and wouldn't make over 16kts. I ran out at night and was running at 16kt so I am not sure if the problem started early and wasn't noticed, but when we got some light we tried to push it up to 20 or so and the engines started to sputter and wouldn't rev higher.

I immediately changed the fuel filters and poored some more startron in. I have been doing this regularly all season.

With the new filters it started to run ok, so we continued to fish for about 8 hours. We then trolled in 20 miles and then ran 10 more to the Texas Tower which is 66nm from Manasquan. She ran great for those two segments. After fishing the tower we couldn't get over 16 knots as we headed back. I changed filters again, checked some plugs, checked temps, but could't find a problem beyond the fact that the fuel must have been bad and getting worse.

I tried my front Aux tank and found the same thing, couldn't get over 16kts, so I switched back to the rear. Later on with about 40 miles left, she dropped down to about 10kts. The port wouldn't make over 1800 rpm's without falling off as if it were out of fuel and the starb wouldn't make over 2300 without doing the same thing.

At this point I switched to the front and it wouldn't make over 10kts either. 40 miles at 10 knots, with bearly enough fuel and no sleep in the previous 36 hours can be tough even on a young guy. We let the Coast Guard know our situation, and the boat managed to sputter awary at 10 knots all the way home. We broke manasquan inlet at 11:00PM 23 hours after we left.

The front tank was essentially empty, and I don't know what was left in the rear.

The entire trip I was convinced it was bad fuel. Now I am not sure. I filled the front tank and added startron but I find that the port motor will still not run with a load above 2000 rpm for more then a few minutes without sputtering and falling off in RPM's dramatically at some point. Run and sounds fine in Neutral with no load.

One thing I noticed is that the Fuel separators are not full to the top when I go to check them after running the boat. Is this normal? or is it possible I have a bad fuel pump. The separators are only about 75% full each time I stop the boat. If it was just one side I'd be thinking fuel pump, but it seems the same for both engines.

I also re-routed the fuel lines to trouble shoot, and hooked the port up to the front tank directly, and the starb up to the rear tank, and it did the same thing, port sputtered but starb runs good. So I am pretty positive this isn't a flow restriction on the suctions side.

Maybe I just have fouled plugs. Maybe there is something wrong with the carbs. Maybe there is a fuel restriction between carb and fuel pump, but I just wanted to get your guys opinion on the separators not being full after running the boat.

Has anyone ever experienced this?

Thanks in advance

Mike Dolan
Lightningshack

[In Memory of Vicroy]

Mike, I'll take a stab.....The fuel pickup tube in the main tank is made out of rolled copper and soldered up the seam. We have seen that joint crack and suck air once the fuel level in the tank drops below the crack.

UV

[MikeD@Lightningshack]

UV,
Thanks, Terrific idea and this would explain a lot. I will check them both.

In this case I doubt it is the situation because the engines were running the same on both tanks, and also performed the same when I isolated an engine to each tank.

I really need to get to the bottom of this soon, so I can get her safely to bed for winter, so I appreciate anything that comes to mind, very open minded right now.

Much appreciated!
thanks
Mike

[John F.]

Mike-

I had a similar problem with my B31 w/454s right after I first got her. Starboard would run OK, port would stumble as if running out of fuel above 2000 rpms or so (can't remember). I have in-line billet aluminum fuel filters from Summit between my fuel pump and carb. I replaced these temporarily with the see-thru glass filters, and found that I was running the port motor out of fuel. I worked back from the carb, and it turned out that the fuel line had degraded somehow and the inner part of the line was coming apart. Anyway, the in-line fuel filter thing helps if you think you might have a fuel supply problem. You can't keep glass or plastic, but the aluminum billets are supposed to be OK--just switch to the glass ones to troubleshoot. Sounds like fuel to me.

John F.

[Hal]

Any chance you've got secondary fuel filters or a screen on the line that you didn't check?

[scot]

A little more info please..

What engines are in the boat?

What type carb, injectors, etc. are on the engines? Holley? Vaccum secoundaries or mechanical?

What type ignition is on the engines?

Do you have anti-sphon valves on the tanks?

How long has it been since you ran the boat for an extended period before this scenario?

Is the fuel in your area full of the corn juice?

Do you have a Floscan on the boat with an in-line sensor?

I have seen this in scenarios where the tanks can not ventilate correctly...idle is fine, but trying to get the RPMs just don't work. If the vent system is "slightly" plugged the engine will pull a vaccum on the tanks....sit or idle a while and the tank catches it breath and off you go again.

Scot

[Ironman]

Sometimes people(me) overlook the small filters in the inlet tube to the carb..I had the same problem on my 454s before the repower.. both motors..
Wayne

[In Memory Walter K]

Pull one plug and one carburetor. Shiny black stuff? You've got the dreaded Ethanol problem and you're lucky you got back with both engines running. Hope that's not the case but sure sounds like it. Walter

[MikeD@Lightningshack]

454 Mercruisers's Naturally Aspirated 340HP.

Rochester or Holley Q-Port 750 CFM vacuum Secondaries

Thunderbolt ignition, solid state Mercruiser Points

No anti siphon valves

I burned 208 on a trip 2 weeks ago from the main tank. The foward 40 gallon Aux tank has been full for about 5 weeks. The rear tank has been empty since that trip two weeks ago. I filled it before I left.

NJ has Gasahol (E-5 or E10 not sure)

No Flow scans

I like your vent thoughts alot. I will try running it tonight without fuel caps on to determine if the vent are causing the issue.

There is nothing like getting the wheels turning with this group. I feel like I gained a mile on this problem just reading your posts.

Thanks Everyone, Huge help in opening my mind to some other things beyond, just plain bad gas.

Mike

[MikeD@Lightningshack]

Wayne,

I checked a plug while I was out there. It may have been a little lean but it was not carbenated or black at all. Light brown.

I have all aluminum tanks and new Parker Hoses.

I do a lot of longer range trips. I've been offshore on 200nm round trips at least a dozen times since the ethanol became widely distributed, so I doubt the black goo just reared it's head this week.

I will inspect a plug and the carb with my fingers crossed! thanks. It's always been a concern, and to date I've felt fairly fortunate to have not scene the horror some have experienced.

Thanks
mike

[MikeD@Lightningshack]

Walt not Wayne... sorry :)

[Brewster Minton]

The bluefin are still up on the bank in 30 fathoms off the hamptons hard. Lots of smaller fish and some 220 to 300-340mixed in. By the tower you need to throw scollop bellies and shells one at a time like your shucking and keep the boat moving on one motor with your washdown hose shooting in the water to sim a scollop dragger. They will come right to the boat while it is moving. And do not forget to play loud Bob Marly they hear it far away and its a must.

[MikeD@Lightningshack]

Brewster.

Love the info, wish I had it earlier. We chunked trolled and chunked. We marked plenty of big one's on the troll, but just couldn't get them up.

I want to go back, but I am out of confidence with the boat, and the weather windows are about finished.

If I get an invitation I wil go on another boat.

I will send your post out to a few of my buddies that are on the fence and looking for a good report before they consider taking advantage of the next weather window.

Awesome
mike

[Capt. Mike Holmes]

Scot has a good idea about the vent - I've had problems on trucks from plugged vents. I have also had probelms with the little filters in the base of the carbs, both auto and marine. The damn things are designed to strip out if you try to change them, I think- usually throw them away and install a bigger in line filter. If ethanol is present, and there is water in the tank, the ethanol will combine with the water - which is fine, until it hits a paper fuel filter cartridge. It clogs the paper and makes it swell. This can cause problems like you described, even with aluminum tanks and new, alcohol resistant fuel lines. There is a centrifigal fuel/water separator on the market which "spins" the water out without using a cartridge that works well.

[Hueso]

It may sound stupid but here it goes.............start your engines at night with no lights on and spray degreaser and or a mist of water on them............if you see sparks it could be an electrical problem with the spark plug cables and/or the distributor.............when you change filters and spark plugs it may work well for a while, but when one of your sparks is not firing correctly and one of your eight pistons is not working, engine starts failing.........just my two cents........and please let us know when you find an answer

[MikeD@Lightningshack]

I took the filter screens from both carbs today, and was instantly sure I had it. The port which was still not running above 200 since new gas was introcuded had a layer of brown gum just about completely restricting the flow. The starb was only half as bad but also restricted.

I let the goo/gum dry and it is a grayish brown paper like substance. I'm guessing that it must be from a seperator/filter that started to come apart.

I put it back together with new screens and both run fine now. Good all the way up to 4200 on both engines.

Now the real trick is to find a filter/separator that won't come apart and to find a way to get the water removed, pumped if need be, from the bottom of my tank before I go offshore.

One thing I noticed today, as I removed the seperators and dumped them into an empty bucket. I looked for water and didn't see any. 45 minutes later I looked back in the bucket and the water appeared. What had no visible water at first now showed at least 5% water. I figure this means that the startron suspends water, but clearly not for a very long time.

I guess I have the whole winter to think about how to prevent these circumstance from slowing us down again. I will monitor the board for your ideas and will let you know if I come up with something.

Thanks again for all your input. It obviously made the difference.

You have to keep an open mind when trying to uncover something like this, and everything that was suggested sure made be sense.

[Ironman]

Capt Mike Holmes ... years ago suggested to me the filters in the neck of the carbs.. Cant take credit for it ,just passed it on.
Thanks again Mike.
Wayne

[Capt. Mike Holmes]

It's great when a problem comes with an easy fix. I had a '68 Chevelle with a 327 and a damn ol' quadrajet that kept puggin those damn little filters. I finally broke the line changing them so often, cut it and replaced with a clear inline filter. After that, this was pretty much standard procedure on all my carbed V8's.

Now, if I can figure out a reason just as easy why my generator won't crank ...

[thereheis]

just my 2 cents , but you might wanna check the carb bowls also. get some sea foam spray and disconnect the fuel line in front of the carb and and spay it in the line in with carb in wot.( engine not running) let it set for 30 min - 1 hr. then start up . i use sea foam in all my gas tanks.it breaks the goop and water down into very minute partacilles so the engine can burn it ....

phil

[Capt Dick Dean]

I would like to get in on this thread, even at the end and looks like the Faithful again have come in with good stuff. Even from the Left Coast.
The advice is priceless.

That being said, let me tell my story.

At the Montauk Rendevous some yrs ago, I left the dock to go home late. It was 1200 hours (on Long Island and parts South, the SouthWest Wind comes in blowin' after say, 1330 hours.) We fueled up in Montauk and left. The wind wasn't bad as we passed Shinnecock, so we stayed on the outside. BY the time we got to Morriches, it was howling and the Inlet was white foam. To make matters worst, it was low tide. (We have a seven foot tide). Now Im' committed to the out side and the trip is 18nm longer to Fire Island Inlet going to home port. The stbd engine started to fail as we passed the Inlet and we limped home.

The next day, the filter for the stbd engine was was inspected. The brown crud was so bad it's a wonder the engine ran at all. I changed all the filters on both engines( yeah, the little one at the carb too) and have had no problems since. (Oh, Lord, please don't strike down on an old guy). We thought it was bad gas!

Looking back and knowing about E-10, I think the ethanol was the problem. The corn juice got the crud loose.

Now as I check and drain the filters at the tank, there is no water coming out. Three yrs ago, a few ounces always drained off.

Well, thats' my story and it will change from time to time.

[Charlie]

Starton is 99% naptha and .5% special enzyme. Naphta will not absorb or re-absorb water. The special additive is supposed to do that over time. At least they is what the ads claim. To absorb water you need a polar solvent, like ethanol, methanol, isopropanol 2-butoxyethanol(K100), acetone,methylethylketone, ect.

[Capt. Mike Holmes]

Charlie, don't have the data right in front of me, but my research yaears ago found than mehtanol was different in polarity from ethanol and isopropyl - thatw as what caused the phase separation problem with methanol and water.