Considering a purchase - Starter 31 Open Fish

ITcookY · Post by **ITcookY** » Jun 8th, '10, 07:01

First Boat Seen- "Just Leslie" (Pseudonym)

I was able to see this boat Yesterday. I am quite pleased with my initial inspection of this modified Bertram Open Fisherman, built in 1961.
Don't ask where it's located, I won't tell.

The boat looks beautiful IMHO. The engines are new. The deck supports, I saw, were bone dry 2" x 4"s. this boat is open with no cover and the bilge was dry (below the pump). We had quite of afternoon thunderstorms this week.

There few things that need to be fixed. The only rot I saw was in the Cabin (leaking from the Fly-Bridge)
The fuel tank appears to be fiberglass, there is a water leak from the fly-bridge into the cabin, the replaced Plexiglas windows leak. The access holes are of the Plastic Variety but the cockpit sole has been replaced with glass. She is ready for her Sea-Trial and Survey

http://www.photosbylaraine.com/WebPhotoGallery/

John Ritchie

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Jun 8th, '10, 07:35

John,

Looks pretty good and the asking price is right, pending survey by qualified professionals. Pete Falon for the general survey and Bruce Creamer for mechanical. Both members of this board.

Being local to you is a very big plus. Another big plus is being an early '60's hull with heavy glass layup.

Br,

Patrick

scot · Post by **scot** » Jun 8th, '10, 08:04

John,

She looks pretty nice to me, but I'm a long way from that boat! You said "I'm a real newbie." to that I would say, make sure you understand what you will be getting into.

When a boat doesn't follow you home on a trailer it is a completely different ball game. Trailer boats can be forgotten when your busy with life, marina boats cannot or they end up at the bottom of the slip.
Also make sure you can afford it. Aside from fuel and regular mechanical maintenance, consider slip fees, bottom jobs, etc.

With that said, I can't think of a better platform to cut your teeth on than a 62 FB 31 Bertram.

Good Luck,

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jun 8th, '10, 11:26

Newbie in what way?

1st time on a boat, 1st boat, first inboard, 1st Bertram?

We may be slightly biased here...but I think we speak the truth when we say these are the Best Boats ever built. That said, an older boat has a good deal of up keep which can be overwhelming at times. Then again a new boat has a good deal of up keep too.

Boat looks nice from pictures...advice. Take her out for a ride...take a few other boats out for a ride, see what you and the family like.

If your looking for problem areas...check out the deck, deck supports, hatches and bulkheads for dry rot. Windows for crazing and window frame for corrosion. Motors, have them checked out.

An up side to a Bertram is the value holds up fairly well...at least compared to anything else on the water. Then you have the ride, sea worthyness and can't forget those classic lines.

Best of luck, welcome aboard and if you have more specific questions...let them fly. Lots of Great info here!

Carl

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Jun 8th, '10, 12:23

Carl gives excellent advice! Spot on as usual buddy!

D

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Jun 8th, '10, 14:57

Get one of the "Faithful" down there to come with you to look at the boat. These boats can eat $$ but dont have to if most of the big things are ok. There will always be stuff to fix and stuff you want to do. That can become big $$. Take your time and get help and ask lots of ? here on the board. Good Luck.

Bertramp · Post by **Bertramp** » Jun 8th, '10, 15:33

I looked at that boat for someone else a few months back with (as I remember, his name was) Ric from Mass/NH area. Ric is on here and is WAY more knowledgeable than I am and after going through that one, came back to my house and gave me a listing of what I needed on my boat ... errr project. Go see it ... i will go with ya if you would like, just send a PM. Where will you keep the boat ? ... If you don't have dockage, I would love nothing more than a pair of 31s behind the house !!

Bob H. · Post by **Bob H.** » Jun 8th, '10, 18:44

Cooky, Look the gel coat over carefully...early years have gel problems, my 66 had tiny "stars" in the paint, after media blasting revealed the dreaded gator gel coat...not insurmountable but a hellova lot of work to fix. Plus side heavy glass layup..Follow the lead of the guys on here and get "experienced" eyes to take a look with you. Great choice for first boat..BH

ITcookY · Post by **ITcookY** » Jun 8th, '10, 20:32

:-D I'm overwhelmed with the responses. Thanks to you all!

Lots of good advice here I see. I grew up around outboards used on the Rappahannock River and Chesapeake Bay. I am new to Bertrams and inboards as a (potential) owner. I currently have a 1964 16.6' Boston Whaler Nauset.

Captain;

It's good to know that Pete Fallon and Bruce (I like that name) Creamer are members of the board here. I will contact them.

Scot; I do need to think about those things. I have no Idea what a bottom job would cost or what slip fees are. A Captain in Islamorda is offering dockage for usage of the boat. (I don't know about that)
http://keys.craigslist.org/boa/1739529947.html

Sim/Carl; I have not heard back from the owner. Taking the family on a test ride is a good idea. Thanks for your input I will look at those areas.

Brewster; You are right, there are things I will want to do and things I won't or shouldn't. Lord grant me the wisdom to know the difference. I am handy with basic carpentry and electrical stuff, but I am not Mechanically inclined. Nice fish you are holding there. Thank you sir.

Bertramp; So you have seen this boat up close and personal like already? Yes, if you would go along with me to see the boat that would be most excellent! As soon as I hear from the owner I will contact you. I will need to look into dockage.
Thanks again.

ITcookY · Post by **ITcookY** » Jun 8th, '10, 21:37

I don't know what Gator Gel Coat is. It sounds bad. Bumpy, Rough etc. I see that West Marine is selling a coating that dissolves as time goes on to prevent things from attaching. Just when the little critter thinks it has a home, its footing dissolves and off it comes. Is this realistic or Marketing Hype?

What does a bottom Job cost? I'm sure there are several quality levels.

scot · Post by **scot** » Jun 8th, '10, 22:20

I don't know what Gator Gel Coat is

I can describe it very well, my B25 has/had a severe case of the Gator skin. Had I known, what I know now, I would have passed on the hull and found another one to restore.

Basically the gelcoat continues to shrink over the years. This causes it to come apart at the surface. The results are a surface that looks like it is fractured. It looks something like a road map. The only true cure is to remove the gelcoat and refinish the glass with a painting system. Some owners will have gelcoat re-applied to the hull after the original gatorfied stuff is removed.

I have been told that the gelcoat was accidently mixed slightly off ratio (too much MEKP?) on particular boats, the results took years to show up. The only good side is that it has no effect on the glass lay up (structural integrity) of the hull....but it's a back breaking (or wallet breaking) experience to correct.

Avoid these hulls, unless the price is so low that you can have it repaired and still come out OK, or unless you are young and have a strong sanding arm and much determination.

ITcookY · Post by **ITcookY** » Jun 8th, '10, 23:32

Scot, I am afraid I don't have that kind of resolve any more. I think best to avoid this boat if I see the gator raising it's ugly head. Thanks for the great description. I made contact with the owner and he told me about an additional listing on Boat trader.

http://www.boattrader.com/listing/1962- ... E-96003805

I sent an email to Bruce Creamer at an email address I got on the site here. A southeast marine address.

Thanks again :)

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jun 9th, '10, 07:10

Alot also depends on what you can live with.

If the Gelcoat has cracking...yes its ugly, but it certainly shouldn't keep you at dock. The boat will run, catch fish, cruise and still is great for diving and keeping the family entertained and happy.

I think it would fall into the 6' rule where if you can't see it from 6' away its fine.

If not...
I think it would fall into the 10' rule where if you can't see it from 10' away its fine.

If not...
I think it would fall into the 20' rule where if you can't see it from 20' away its fine.

Then there is always the "don't look there" rule...

Now if your looking for a perfect boat, or plan to make it into one, it may be a deal breaker.

Let a Captain run the boat in exchange for dockage.... I'm thinking that may not be your best idea. At the very least if the tank is shy a few gallons here and there that could add up to a nice sum very quickly.

Abuse your motors and the life expectancy goes way down.
For me they need to warm up before running, cool down before shutting them down.
I believe in adding throttle gradually and not running on the pins for extended periods.

The bottom paint I believe you are referring to is called Ablative. It does not dissolve, but is polished off as you run the boat thru the water.

Nice thing about the paint is you do not get the same buildup as with non-polishing paints, easier to sand if you need to and Yes it works very well. Although I have not used West marines brand, but Interlux Micron. Very good results for me.

Down side is it is expensive and you need to run the boat somewhat often to keep the chemicals/biocides fresh at the surface.

scot · Post by **scot** » Jun 9th, '10, 08:04

I think it would fall into the 20' rule where if you can't see it from 20' away its fine.

Sounds like my paint jobs!

And this statement is true as well:

Alot also depends on what you can live with.

BTW, I guess I'm missing something? I don't see where the add says that the boat is gatorfied.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jun 9th, '10, 08:59

scot wrote: Sounds like my paint jobs!

And this statement is true as well: BTW, I guess I'm missing something? I don't see where the add says that the boat is gatorfied.

Scot, I believe it was brought up as something to look for in the older boats.

20' rule
Don't feel bad, it sounds like my paint jobs too.

I had tied a mako off the Midship cleat with the flying gaff still attached. Gouged the whole back quarter when she decided to let me know she wasn't dead yet. I left it for a season or two as "A Trophy Gouge" then decided to repaint the area. Never really got it right after several attempts. That was till a year ago, where it would pass the 10' rule...then I tied up to a dock n dine, the docks fender wound up being loaded with barnacles and as the boat moved it scratched the crap out of the area so I'm back to it being in the 20' rule again.

Pete Fallon · Post by **Pete Fallon** » Jun 9th, '10, 09:41

John,
I got your E-mail about the 1962 31 in Pompano. Most of the early 31's had gel coat problems, back in the old days they often applied up to 25 mils of gel coat and lots of the hull, deck and house sides had major shrinkage problems. The old gel coat has to sanded off completely or any coating applied over it will show thru after a few seasons in the sun. The glass lay-up in the early boats was over kill and is enough to build 2 boats by todays standards.
I had my 31 express re-gel coated from the rub rail down in 1995 ($7,500 plus) and it still looks as good as new. Cooks armor coat is the best gel on the market, very expensive and labor intensive to have a boat re-gel coated ($120.00 per foot plus materials). Other coatings such as Imron or Awlgrip are easier to repair and less costly but it's all in the prep work. Lot's of sanding, filling and fairing no matter how you look at it, if you want a quailty job let a pro do the work and you will save time and money in the long run.
Let me know what you want to do about looking at the boat.

Pete Fallon AMS SAMS

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Jun 9th, '10, 14:35

John,
I also got your email and would be glad to take a peak.
Call me at 561-906-6268.
I just got back into town and am leaving again next Tuesday for Bowling Green Kentucky for a week and possibly Indianapolis after that.

I have a few days between now and next Tuesday.

Playing any golf yet Pete?

Marlin · Post by **Marlin** » Jun 9th, '10, 18:43

there is/was a group in Miami called Uniyacht that offers to regel the HULL only for 18000 k. on there website. You really have to decide what you want out of this boat before you make a purchase, the purchase will be the cheap est thing you will do with a B31 if you want to bring her back. Without a lot of handson know how you could spend 200 to 300 K on a restoration

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Jun 9th, '10, 19:07

Its about owning a 31. If you just want a boat get one. If you want a 31 Bertram Get it. There are lots of boats out there. There is only one 31 Bert. Its a cult thing. Mine is old and nasty looking, but running offshore I pass alot of sexxy boats and out fish them. You need to to whats best for YOU. Even if you dont make it brand new its still a 31 Bertram.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Jun 9th, '10, 21:42

Ditto on that. I bought my used early 60's Sportsfisherman back in 1977. Raised a family of three children on it. Now take out their children on the same boat. I fixed, changed, improved things over the years as I wanted or needed on my own schedule and budget. I never missed a fishing season in all those years. It's a 31 Bertram. If it runs, buy it, use it, change things ONLY after you've learned it and decided you love it. Once you've hit that point, you have a lifetime boat. In the world of privately owned boats, it's the best ratio of performance, safety, simplicity, reasonable maintainability, resale value you will ever find. Classic on top of all that! I still get compliments regularly from total strangers with bigger boats. Constant "what year is that?" followed by "wow" when I say 1964, and mine is not a pristine one. Good luck!

ITcookY · Post by **ITcookY** » Jun 9th, '10, 23:13

That reminds me of "back in the day", a rule I used to use. The Drinking rule. If she don't look good have another drink and check again. The closer it got to last call and the more drinks I had, the better she looked. Now I can modify the 20ft. rule and/or combine the two reducing costs. If she don't look good, move back 10 ft., if that doesn't work, have a drink and move back 10 more feet. I really like the 20 ft. Rule. The "Don't look there" rule would have worked great back then. It is similar to the Paper Bag Rule. Put a paper bag over it and see how it looks.

The Craig's-listing did not state it was Gatorfied Scot, Bob H suggested to be on the lookout for Stars and the Gator. The things he experienced previously

I think I can live with a lot. I just want this thing to look clean and well cared for. Most important to me is the reliability; getting home.

This 31 definitely seems like the boat for me, after all you guys think so.

FROM the '62 SFB 31 owner this evening; I am in the middle of buying a new home and will not have time for a few days. I will e-mail you as soon as I can do this.

I am anxious but I am trying to keep it in check.

Marlin,I found a phone listing for UniYacht on Google but not a website of their own. I will add them to my list of Service Providers, thanks

Brewster,Thanks for putting this in perspective and to remind me why I came here in the first place. I want a piece of the "Legend" and besides there is the 20 ft. rule to fall back on.

Bruce, is a family name. I have Aunti Bruce, Aunt Bruce, Uncle Bruce, First Cousin Bruce, the list goes on. That is why I mentioned I liked your name. I emailed the owner to get a better understanding of what his time frame is.

Thanks for all of your comments. I really appreciate you taking the time.

Regards,

John Coleman Ritchie (ITcookY)

ITcookY · Post by **ITcookY** » Jun 9th, '10, 23:51

Thanks for the "Good Luck" kind Sir!
I consider myself lucky that I have the opportunity to own one of these. I've chosen the Bertram for a chance to learn more about boats and enjoy the fruits.
From what I've read, I gather that the engines etc..are easily accessible. This will allow me to do some of the work myself will be, a "Therapy" for me. I just completed adding on a Florida Room to my little house. Getting the tolerance of 1/8" on 6 windows that were 6 ft X 5ft in size was not easy. Homemade shims, ripped 2' x 8's to the rescue. Most of the work done by me, took over 5 years. My wife reminds me.... and everyone she sees...how long it's taken. lol. I was interrupted by a few hurricanes but I'm ready for the next one.

It's time for a more adventurous therapy.

Again thanks!

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Jun 10th, '10, 05:15

Along with everything else, I think a B31 is about the easiest boat to work on. There's great access to everything, and most of the boat can be taken apart pretty easily. Enjoy.

John

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jun 10th, '10, 07:54

Take all the info in...see that boat and try to see a few others.

One good thing is...if that particular "31" does not fit your needs there are many more out there that will. Some a bit more, some a bit less in cost...and some a whole lot more.

It does not have to be that 31 Bertram or nothing.

I'm just saying this as you are seeming real anxious and while its a 31 Bertram, I'd like to see you get into one that is up to par with your needs. AKA- good sound hull, motors, mechanicals and sound structures like deck and supports, bulkheads. So look and listen to all advise then stand back and think on it.

It can all be fixed, but is that something you want to get into right away.

Then again it may be perfect for you, I'm hoping that's the case.

Good luck to you.

Let us know how you make out.

Carl

Marlin · Post by **Marlin** » Jun 10th, '10, 18:18

Sim I totally agree with you

ITcookY · Post by **ITcookY** » Jun 10th, '10, 19:46

Thanks Carl. I am in too big of a hurry. There do seem to be quite a few 31's for sale. How do you know me so well? :-D

Bertramp · Post by **Bertramp** » Jun 10th, '10, 21:35

Funny, but when I was looking, there really were not as many 31s in FLA as I thought there might be. I wound up with a boat from Long Island, NY ... as did Marlin and we are both here in FL.

ITcookY · Post by **ITcookY** » Jun 10th, '10, 22:54

Well, now that you say that, there are not any others I see in that price range except this older craig'sListing: I will call on that one tomorrow.

http://miami.craigslist.org/mdc/boa/1740062647.html

There is one there in Jacksonville:
http://www.boattrader.com/listing/1977- ... --96741121
Same one again. Price lowered to $35k
http://jacksonville.craigslist.org/boa/1784490940.html

And then Pete's boat listed here:
http://bertram31.com/listings/fallon.htm

You are right Bertramp, there really aren't that many. Keep your eyes peeled though.
:?

Bertramp · Post by **Bertramp** » Jun 11th, '10, 09:09

I have Bahia, so it has no problems being trucked. If you go with a FBC and need it trucked, it may be more difficult. And if you do have it trucked, DO YOUR HOMEWORK ... my experience was a nightmare.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Jun 11th, '10, 09:39

Just make sure if it's a gasser, that the tank has been changed to aluminum.

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Jun 11th, '10, 09:50

Where on the Rappahannock are you from?? I was born and raised on Carter's Creek and still live in the area.

Al · Post by Al » Jun 11th, '10, 10:55

Like the others have said about owning a 31', it's about being a steward of a classic. My boat is 40 years old and still gets compliments on the dock. I also echo Capt Pat's suggestion about having Pete and Bruce conduct your surveys. Although I bought my boat from a member of this board and was thus pretty comfortable with the purchase, having the A-Team go through it gave me the added assurance that there were no surprises that neither the seller nor I had identified.

Good luck with your search.

ITcookY · Post by **ITcookY** » Jun 11th, '10, 23:19

Rawleigh, I am sure you know the USS Aquamarine now known as the Miss Ann. Here is a little a little history about her.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Aquamarine_%28PYc-7%29

I have fine memories of riding on her and watching her cruise by; laden with visitors to the Tides Inn.
In the early years, My great grandparents had a Bay cottage in Deltaville Va on the little sandy beach on the bay side of of town. My first trip at six weeks old, was to Gywnns Island. Spending time there, and at my Uncle's cottage (Wood Road) in Bertrand Va located on the Corrotoman where it meets the Rappahannock. In the '70s my father retired and moved from Charlottesville, (where I call home), and bought a permanent home that was located off of Carters Creek in Yopps Cove,(Whitestone). The owned property is located on the road that is now called Moring Lane. I miss that property. The last place my parents owned before buying into RWC, (Across from the Double Eagle), was off of Fleets Bay Road in Kilmarnock. One mile from the mouth of Fleets bay and directly across from Indian Creek CC. The name of the property was Even Keel (Originally part of the McSwain's property off of Fleet's Bay Rd, located on what is now know as McSwain Rd. ) and it had the best view, looking directly out the the into the Chesapeake and to Rappahannock Shoal Light. Great View but more vulnerable to the nor'easters. It lacked the Protection of Carters Creek. Boat got beat up bad in that last hurricane a few years ago. It took us by surprise with the tidal surge. Power was out for 2 plus weeks if I remember correctly

Rawleigh, has the family ever started restoring the old farm house at the mouth of Carter's Creek? The one at the end or Crab Point. When I last visited, only the a gazebo had been put in. They mentioned that they wanted it to be a place to hold weddings and things of that nature. I would not want to get married there the way it looked, the last time I saw it. Prize real estate though.

My parents have passed on now and I really do appreciate the times I had there on the "Rivah". Love those Virgina Blue Crab. The sad thing is my sister moved away from Virgina, so I don't have any real ties there anymore. My Aunt still has her place on the Corrotoman. Still a summer house for her, with pool and 8 boats of varying size and shape for her and all of the her grandkids. Her husband I miss. I have an empty place in my heart.

Thanks for asking. Where is your home?

Al, here's the plan. I have three boats to see. One in Pompano Beach next to lauderdale, One in Miami ( more about that later) and one in Venice Florida. (Thanks Bertramp). When seeing The local boats In Miami and Lauderdale, I will ask Bertramp to go with. Hopefully he can and will. If any of the boats pass muster, according to his eye and my tastes, I will make an offer and leave a deposit and agree to buy pending the A-Team's evaluation. When I say the A-Team, I mean the Dynamic Duo, Pete and Bruce. I do need to take my time and think about things and not be in too big of a hurry. So I am going to Tampa for the weekend,my Oldest grandson graduates from high school, and I will wave at Venice when I ride by. I won't have time to stop according to Laraine, my wife; my Captain.

Walterk, The Miami boat must have the Original Fiberglass tank as there was no mention of the upgrade. That's bad. See new Post "Cost of Aluminum Tank" There is a plus, even though the lower helm has been removed. There is a brand new pair of 454's in her with less than 20 hours on them. A nice couple owns the boat but the husband died before the already bought engines were installed. The wife, let's call her Anne, recently went ahead and had the 3 year old, brand new 454 engines installed. They supposedly only have 20 hours on them. She has been trying to sell the boat for some time and today lowered the price to $25k. It's a SF if you haven't guessed. So new engines-Bad Tank vs. new tank and bad engines.

John Ritchie :?

bertram31.com

Considering a purchase - Starter 31 Open Fish

Considering a purchase - Starter 31 Open Fish

Gator Gel Coat and Bottom Paint.

1962 in Pompano

gelcoat

The 20ft Rules and the #$@! price tag of a restoration.

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