That's a Sportsfisherman model with the head between the V-berths. That model has the lower steering station. Hard to answer your maintenance question as local areas have local prices. In most cases it's by the foot. The same goes for boatyards. Price for hauling (by the foot), winter storage, shrink wrapping etc. Some yards won't let you work on your boat (avoid them), or allow you to bring in your mechanic, etc. Diesel maintenance is usually an oil change and filters at the end of the season and fuel filters at the beginning of the season. Bottom painting in the spring, new shaft and rudder zincs in the spring, hull cleaning and waxing in the spring. A good surveyer should advise you of faults he finds. Batteries go, just like in cars. Electronics are no longer cheap, but very important to your safety. Things will break and need repair or replacement as should be expected on any boat. I'd factor in a bridge enclosure for your personal comfort and the longevity of any electronics on the bridge. It will also extend your season. Good luck. Walter
Got some more info from the broker - supposed to be D180's. However, I can't find anything on those, looks like Google finally met it's match.
From what the broker said the current owner has a cross-reference list to Mercruiser 4-liter diesels that he uses for replacement parts. Apperantly mercruiser uses the same engine (the images on their site for the 4-litre engines do look similar, but no joy on any reference materials to the original d180s).
That head under the berth won't fly with the admiral - thanks Walter, sharp eyes!
Too bad on that - looks like a sharp boat otherwise.
Look for an express cruiser that comes with a stand-up head . No lower forward station though. That model is enclosed with a lockable door. I have had a Sportsfisherman for 32 years now and love the openness of it, but still haven't stopped hearing about the head. If she's happy, you'll be happier. Also, in the wonderful world of diesels, Cummins B series and Yanmars almost guarantee you a fairly recent complete repowering. Parts and a knowledge base on those is readily available. As far as horsepowering is concerned, a pair of 210's to 315's is the range with something in between being the best average of power/performance/economical operation. With due respect to boat brokers, don't take their word on anything. Check us here. This site has saved each of us big bucks on so many things that we could have screwed up on. Walter
Hi Wayne - thanks for the offer. What's the range in costs? Dana Point has lower slip fees (not by much though), but we usually leave from Newport due to the ramps being empty at the early hours and plenty of parking. Wondering if just getting a mooring and some solar panels would be cheaper in the long run....
Walter - talking for experience with the head issue ? hehe. Yes, if she's at least got some of the more important items checked, then it makes life easier. haha.
Now I know why they did not list type, or show pictures of them.
I did wonder about that, expecting it to be vintage Detroit's or Cummings.
Make sure you can get parts and service would be my advice before looking further.
Dads got Steyrs, real nice motors, but whatever he needs has to be ordered.
Not the end of the world, usually just a phone call and the part is received the following day or so...but an extreme example was Next Day Air from Austria with a Saturday delivery, that gets expensive, but the boat won't run without a fuel pump and a lost weekend can be more costly.
He wanted a service call, took a week to arrange someone to get here from the newest local dealer and a person to come and train him...
Those are not BMW motors, you may have a different experience, but I do not believe that BMW Marine is mainstream and would expect something similar. Also resale, the engines may be a factor as they are not mainstream powerplants.
Up side, if the BMW's perform like Sr's Steyrs, well then all is forgiven.
Yanmar teamed with BMW to built the replacement engine for the 4lh series. There were some early problems with little things like fires.
Since the economy has dumped, there have been no dealer meetings in two years so any new info is scetchy. I've been told all early problems have been fixed.
Mercruiser also teamed with BMW many, many years ago to produce a diesel that I actualy had worked on.
None of the Merc dealers had been trained on them but Merc wouldn't let outside companies perform warrantee work so the owner was stuck paying the bill and hoped to get reimbursed from Merc thru a lawyer.
Parts were just about impossible to get(way before the internet).
I even tried transmitting over to Europe using a customers Telex machine and never got any response.
With todays telecommunication updates, it could be much easier.
John:Mooring is the way to go in Newport.. far as Im concerned.. had a few battles with the sealions.. But Im on the boat most everyday.
If you really need a slip I think H.H is ok.
I dont recall ever seeing that gasser 31 anywhere..
Wayne
I completely agree on all that has been said about parts and service, but the unspoken side may be that those are decent diesel engines and may require very little attention in the life time, or attention span of the average boater at 180hr p/yr.
They look to be straight forward in design, BMW is know for building good products. I don't see an aftercooler to maintain and they do not appear to be ladden with cheap plastic junk. In fact they have an industrial appearance. I like the heat exchanger end plates...just like Detroits, simple, bulletproof, you can make your own gaskets if you like. The engines have been painted, so how old are they?...or have they been out and rebuilt?
My take is this; if you have to pay someone to come down and change your fuel and oil filters, stay away from that boat with those engines. If you are capable of doing a fair amount of the work yourself, the boat could be a good deal (because many will turn away from the engines)
Bottom line is that you would need to get a swinging deal to off set the odd-ball engine factor.
Pretty boat.
Scot
1969 Bertram 25 "Roly Poly"
she'll float one of these days.. no really it will :-0
Wow - that's a tremendous amount of information. Thanks everyone!
If you don't mind me asking - how long was the waiting list for a mooring? The dues for those were yearly, is that still the case? Heard the #1 on the waiting list finally got his mooring, he had been on the list since 1967! :shock:
I agree, the engines do look very industrial - no extraneous items, just straight and to the point with tried and tested mechanics.
I sent a request for information to BMW marine (bmwmarine.com) but have yet to hear back from them, hence my initial post. As an alternate source of info, I'm searching for BMW Marine service centers and see what they say.
They do have a similar look to the current D190 and D150 that BMW makes (and the mercruiser/cummins 4liter). The HP ratings for it from the broker/current owner seem a bit on the low side for the hull though - only 180hp. And only 1050 hours on them.
The current owner obviously loves his 31 - it's in gorgeous shape, and there are quite a few upgraded systems done in 2008.
Question: has anyone ever attempted to move a head from under the berth and create an enclosed head/shower? :wink:
Will be tooling around newport tomorrow in the "Toytanic" eyeballing some other boats. haha.
The removal is easy, where to put the new one is harder. It entails either the dismantlement and removal of the lower steering station (one place) and/or moving the sink, fridge/cabinet unit forward in it's place, building a vertical bulkhead and putting it where the Express cruisers have it (second place). Unless you REALLY love the power and the rest of the boat, I wouldn't recommend it because of the work and costs involved.
Leave the shower to the back deck. it will create all kinds of extra work and havoc having it in the head.
Pat Hancocks 31 that Patrick is redoing had the head moved from the vberth (aka sportfish model) and when he enclosed the aft bulhead built the flybridge head area with the curve door.
If you think shammying down the shower stall at home is a pain in the butt, try shammying down the entire head compartment... Everything would have to be completely sealed and water proofed, a raised threshold to keep water from draining into the cabin, a door that opens in so that it can shield water, covered outdoor type electric recepticles, and list goes on and on.
Looking at the pictures, it seems that the section under the vee bunk does not appear to have any hinges for the head. Also, the bulkheading of one side of the cabin, may be because the head was already moved to that location???
I originally had a flybridge crusier with stand up head and removed it and relocated in v-berth counter to most projects. I always wanted the sportfish as the open bulkhead really made the small cabin feel much bigger. Also as a day fisherman the head was never used.
I did have a friend that had a sportfish and removed the lower control station which he never used and put the stand up there and was able to keep his open bulkhead.
My observation is the same as Harv's. looks like the port side berth has been done away, the dinette moved forward, port rear window glassed and something (a head?) installed between the port engine and the dinette.
Sorry to revive this old thread, but this bertram just came back on the market recently and I was able to take a first hand close look at it and would like some opinions from the knowledgable folks on the board.
The engines are BMW/Mercruisers diesels circa 1985 with 190HP, installed during diesel repower, turbocharged and intercooled. The engines look clean, even though the engine mounts and hard to reach places on them are not painted and look like 1985 engines. No bad reports regarding the engines from checking on boatdiesel.com, they just show their age and Mercruiser parts fit the D190's (to a certain extent) based on the BMW/Mercruiser. What's interesting is the dorade boxes are no longer along the side of the hull, instead there's fairly large (3" diameter hoses) that allow air into the engine box atop the gunnels and are covered with large clamshells. 3 of the hoses/holes per engine box. Is that normal?
I was unable to see the complete full tank as the 31 has a teak deak with little to no access to the actual tank itself. Is the tank normally replaced with a repower to deisel?
It's reported to me that it's the only sportfish bertram 31 made with a factory installed separate enclosed head (in lieu of under the vberth) so it's not an owner-mod (hull # 208). It shows very very well - looks clean on the outside, but what would you check internally to see if it's worth while? What I mean is, what can I check - before asking a surveryor to take a looksee - to know if I'm going to have an immediate expenses fixing things structurally?
Also, any idea on the type of mileage or gph for engines that size on this hull? Any way to find out how she was configured when it left the Bertram factory?
My take is this; if you have to pay someone to come down and change your fuel and oil filters, stay away from that boat with those engines. If you are capable of doing a fair amount of the work yourself, the boat could be a good deal (because many will turn away from the engines)
Bottom line is that you would need to get a swinging deal to off set the odd-ball engine factor.
Scot
1969 Bertram 25 "Roly Poly"
she'll float one of these days.. no really it will :-0
The money's in the iron. Why get involved with off-brand engines when there are dozens of B31s on the market with Cummins, Cats, and Yanmars? Plus, 190 hp a side is not nearly enough to make the B31 perform well - it takes at least 240 a side to do the job.
thanks for the input again guys. What sort of money would you guys offer for it with those odd engines? I'm not making an offer on it right now, just trying to get a sense of value from folks who know the boats inside and out.
The D190s have about 1200 hours on them (installed 1991, the 1985 info was incorrect) and the same block and most components are currently in use by Mercruiser for their diesel engines. Currently cruise her at 18knts - I'm not interested in a speed demon but instead reliability and low maintenance.
I have a pair of Cummins 6bt 210's I got in 1990 that have about the same kind of hours on them. Properly propped I cruise at about 22 kts. That's 100+hrs a season and hopefully well maintained. The BMW reputation via cars and motorcycles is a good one, but in the world of boat diesels, part availability and good mechanical help is what has led most of us to Cummins or Yanmars. If you have a good BMW diesel mechanic around, then his opinion (and his availability when you need it) would be a big factor in going further. Otherwise look further as the market (for looking) is good now.
farside wrote: I'm not interested in a speed demon but instead reliability and low maintenance.
Then I'd look at a different boat as no one here can comment on reliabilty and maintenance of those engines. I'm not sure why you're hung up on this particular boat. Is it the price or that you're on the west coast?
I guess it's the overall look and cleanliness of the outside - and the fact that it's the only one for sale on the west coast (california) that I've found that isn't a project boat. :wink:
That's main issue - trying to figure out what it's actually worth. It's listed at 54, but if I decide to go through with it I would offer 38, 40 at most.
That boat has been on the market for years. If the engines have to be replaced its worth almost less than nothing. Consider investing in cheapie air fares and look on the Gulf and east coasts, especially FLL....lots of nice B31s for sale, and shipping to the west coast is probably a less than 5K deal.
Not sure if this helps you, but I went digging through my archives and found an issue of the Old Bertram Owners club Newsletter from 1995. There was a 1966 31 FBC in there with the 150 BMW's in it. It was repowered at about the same time as the one you are looking at.
Could it be the same boat? From what I can tell the name on that boat was the Grizly Creek. At the time they claimed it had a 20Knot Cruise and burned 6 GPH.
Sorry there are no pictures to try a match up.
Home port was Sant Cruz in 95. Just a strange coincidence with the BMW engines. Two 31's in California with BMW engines. What is the chance?
That is odd - 150's vs 190's. Wonder if they were done at the same yard. The name on this one is "Notorious" and they are definetly 6 cyl. engines. Really strange. Found out that the there are three tanks. Two saddle tanks from the original engines (currently disconnected) and a central tank which is the one in use with the engines right now. I've got some inquiries in as to whether or not that central tank was installed with the diesels. Why would they not remove the saddle tanks when the deck was up for the installation of the central one though. Makes no sense to me. And that 6gph is a bunch of PR I think. It's possible I suppose, but not very probable.
Really strange boat. At this point I'm just curious about it. What I've found is in the early 2000's there were three BMW marine service centers world wide - two in the US. One in alameda (near SF) and the other near long beach (from what I can tell). Not looking good.
The current owner owns a 38 bert, and he took the 31 off the market last year because he started using it again and changed his mind about selling it. haha.
If I remember correctly it was listed for about the same last time it was up for sale.
I guess it at least makes a great conversation topic.
The selller is playing up the Mercruiser connection but for the past several years Mercruiser diesels have been pure Cummins. It is now Cummins/Mercruiser and have nothing in common with those engines.
The Mercruiser Detronic diesel parts of the 1980s and early 1990s are hard to find and expensive.
I can see your frustration because the boat is near you, looks great and currently runs. You will try talking yourself into the idea that the boat will run and you wont have a problem. It will cost you more in the long run.
Low hp and cruises slow...not the end of the world. 31's came thru stock with 4-53's, same low hp, but real heavy motors.
I think your problem will be when you need parts and service...all motors will need some sooner or later.
Even if you don't have a major issue you will need to replace common parts that wear out, corrode...
Maintenance parts...gaskets...specialty piping and fittings...stupid things that you won't think of...but yet will keep you dockside till you locate, have shipped in.
Now if a major problem does happen with one motor...do you replace it...if so....with what???
If you get the boat at a price you feel you can pull the motors out and replace them without breaking the bank...go for it. But keep in mind new motors may develop more HP, more torque so you may need to upgrade your running gear too, work that into your budget.
Also keep in mind if you want to sell down the road with BMW's you'll have a hell of a time selling the boat. I wouldn't buy it unless it was dirt cheap...
Something's wrong somewhere. No B-31 came from the factory with saddle tanks and no center tank. They all came with center tanks. Saddles were added to add range to the original 165 gallon tanks that came standard on the early models, which offshore fishermen often felt were inadequate for their needs. 6 gph per engine is possible if they are 150-160 hp. My 210's get me 7.5-8.
Sounds to me like you like the boat, and have the engine doubts.
That means it really depends on what you can buy the boat for and how motivated the seller is.
I started my world in the B31 with Chrysler 440's which would be the gas equivalent. Not in production since the 70's, all parts are aftermarket, tough to find and no one wants to work on them.
If you buy with plans to run until repower, then you may not be miserable as it would be part of the plan. Plus you already have diesel, so much or some of the work will have been done.
Fun for window (and serious) shopping is a site that combines ebay, craigslist, and a couple of others. You search by boat brand and it gives you listings for all sites they search nationwide. http://boat.jaxed.com/cgi-bin/boat.cgi? ... ubmit=+GO+
