Advice on a Potential Purchase (62 Express Cruiser)

[hbMoppie]

Gentlemen, I am now in escrow on what I believe to be one of the most beautiful b31 Express Cruisers out there. Sea trial next week, survey and mechanical survey following. Boat has been redone completely. Here's the question, and it has to do with the engines (and I know I am going to probably get a lot of negative comments here). The boat was repowered some time in the mid 90s with Volvo TAMD 41B diesels. Engines are rated at 192hp at the crank. Questions: (a) is this going to be enough power for this boat?; (b) any opinion on reliability of these motors? They seem to be in great condition, and I will have a diesel mechanic go thru them with the proverbial fine tooth comb, but....

Thanks for your advice.

[CaptPatrick]

hb,

While TAMD 41Bs are definantly too little power to take advantage of the B31s performance potential, they are good engines as long as you're not in a hurry to get to where you're going. At least on the onset...

If they get a clean bill of health from your mechanic, they should serve you well until you decide to upgrade to more horse power. Take your fuel savings and bank it against the repower.

Be sure to check the WOT under load RPMs to make sure they aren't over propped. 384 horses pushing a B31 could get real tired real quick...

Br,

Patrick

[In Memory of Vicroy]

Nice boat, bad power....first,not enough hp for the boat...most of us are of the view that it takes about 240 diesel hp a side for the hull to perform properly.

I personally have owned a pair of AD 31 Volvos- the same as the 41s but two less holes, and they drove me nuts, slap nuts. Crap fell off them, the engines are simply over-engineered by couch potatos that must have never had to maintain a motor. Bad motors, period. The Cummins, Yanmars, and even the old Detroits are way better. Oh yeah, did I mention that the Volvo parts people are robbers? Most expensive parts in the world, bar none....if you can get them.

Other than that......

UV

[hbMoppie]

I had a bad feeling you all were going to say that...I am getting such a great deal on this boat, that I think I will still go thru with it if they get the clean bill...I am assuming that a repower even with reman'd diesels would cost me more than what I am paying for this boat...any thoughts on what it would cost me to get more acceptable powerplants in this thing?

[Brewster Minton]

Everybody will chime in Im sure. It depends on if shafts are right size and new wheels I would think for new engines and all the stuff you might need about 80,000.

[hbMoppie]

$80k?!
Don't tell my wife that! I think I'll be putting around with the vulvas for a while.

[In Memory of Vicroy]

The Brew is right on money wise. If you plan to use the boat very lightly in pleasure boating only, and the price is under about $40-45,000, you might be happy with it for a few years. The cooling systems on the 41s are better than the 40s, but not much - a real weak point......the plumbing for fuel and water is crazy with tons of screwball joints and o-rings instead of simple hoses and clamps. It is impossible to keep the v-belts on them. I used to buy belts by the dozen. The v-belt angles are just wrong. Also the belt pulleys rust if you look at them wrong and fruther eat belts. The adjusting irons for the alternators break every 50 hours....I finally fabricated some out of REAL steel. There are plastic parts that should be metal and crack. The oil pans are high carbon steel and rust out very quickly. The heat exchangers use aluminum and copper that come into contact with each other causing havoc. If you are not halfway handy with tools and not afraid to get into the hands-on maintaince, they will drive you to drink. A dis-assembly of all visible bolt on parts and treatment of threads and joints with Ultra Tef-Gel would be a good start to some of the nagging problems, as well as a regual bath in Corrosion X.

I've owned just about every kind of gas and disesl engine man has devised and without a doubt, the Volvos were far and away the worst, and I do not say that lightly.

UV

[Brewster Minton]

I hated to tell you those numbers but thats what they are. It can be done for less if you get rebuilds and do the work yourself. I got my Yanmar lp6s (315hp) for 24,000 for both out of a boat that was getting new engines so he could go faster. Sold my old ones and had to buy shafts and trannys and wheels. Did most all the work myself and it was 35,000.$ It can be done if you stick at it and a little luck.

[hbMoppie]

http://www.yorathyachts.com/core/listin ... ywo=yorath&

[CaptPatrick]

hb,

Lota' custom work and maintenance has obviously gone into that B31. $50k is what many "project boats" with gas engines have gone for over the recent years prior to mid-'08. You couldn't even come close to duplicating it from a project for twice that price. Not to mention the time it'd take to do it.

All of your basics are there; custom interior, diesel engines, fresh paint, new wiring, etc. Yeah, the engines leave a bit to be desired, but at least they aren't old gassers.

I'd suspect that you're not a hard core fisherman, just by the fact that you're more than interested in this boat. That leads me to also think that you're not planning 200 mile round trips offshore.

If the engine pass muster, you've got a good buy...

She wouldn't be my cup of tea, but that's why they make more than one brand of beer.

Br,

Patrick

[hbMoppie]

Patrick,
You are right about me not being a hardcore fisherman. As much as I would like to be one, not enough time, or experience to fall in that category. 200 mile round trippers are definitely not in my future anytime soon.

her use will be local fishing off of Orange County (California); trips to catalina (24 miles each way); and local cocktail cruising.

the glitzyness of this boat is what sold the wife on it, so I'll take what I can get!

[In Memory Walter K]

The alterations, as nicely done as they are, take the boat out of the classification (as far as I'm concerned) of an Express Cruiser restoration. It has become a Bertram 31 trawler, and a fast one at that. If cruising is what you like to do and the engines get a good bill of health, the price is right.

[Bruce]

I am getting such a great deal on this boat

There's always a reason.

[RussP]

I have to chime in here on the hores power issue. We have Brewsters old 6-354 Perkins in our Sportfish. The book says they are 165HP with out aftercoolers and 20hp more with them. With a clean bottem we get 21 knotts with a 18 knott cruise and burn arouns 12 to 13 gals p/hour. Robert @ bobby soles just put some cup in the wheels as he said they were not set up right for a 31 and figures I should get another 2 to 3 knotts. I know putting along at 18 knotts is not as much fun as 24 but most of the time we can't make 15 because of the sea conditions. How slow are the 31's @ Tropic Star putting along at. Every time I get the itch to get the 300 HP iron I think about how much money I have in these old girls and how good they run and realise we make the Bahamas on less than 50 gallons and I can live with the slower boat. It's a mint 31 and we look really good putting along.

RussP

[Carl]

I could live with an 18 knot cruise...hey wait I do.

Make sure your surveyor's are not real ol' buddies of the broker.

Think about what UV is saying, once they are yours...they are yours. If you don't get your elbows dirty, you can expect to pay dearly in mechanic bills.

Good luck, she's one of a kind!
Carl

[Harry Babb]

I think the boat is beautiful......but have a backdoor out on the engines.....

Just go with your gut......GO WITH YOUR GUT.....if you get your brain to involved he will just confuse you....

Go with your gut.....you like it....den buy it....

Harry

[In Memory of Vicroy]

Russ - them Volvos ain't Perkins. There is a difference between slow and reliable and slow and broke down. Viz the TSL boat - all but a few still with the trusty oil slingin' dump truck motors...18 kts but always 18. Their experiments with other engines have not worked out.....one with Yannie 170s burns too much fuel and the one with the Nannis - both engines crapped out under 1200 hours.....they are looking at 4 cyl. John Deeres right now as parts for the 4-53s are getting harder and harder to get.

UV

[Brewster Minton]

The engines I sold to RussP were great and I miss them when I want to high speed troll for Wahoo at 17-18 knts the Yanmars dont like going that speed. The pyromiters go up 150 degrees at 18knts.

[Carl]

I think the boat is beautiful......but have a backdoor out on the engines.....

Just go with your gut......GO WITH YOUR GUT.....if you get your brain to involved he will just confuse you....

Go with your gut.....you like it....den buy it....

Harry

Hate to disagree with you here Harry, but for a boat I believe two things are a must... Sound Hull and Sound Power (gas or diesel). The rest go with your heart, gut or coin flip.

He has the hull going for him.

The power...according to UV is questionable for reliability, mostly due to stupid things going wrong. But a stupid bracket that takes a dump can put you out of commission till it gets fixed. That stupid bracket can cost an arm and a leg and if you can't fix yourself you hand over the remaining arm and leg. Take into consideration if it takes that dump when underway...

[Mikey]

How about a picture without the covers. Is the hardtop original?

[hbMoppie]

The Hardtop isn't original, it's all custom. I will try to get down there this weekend and strip the covers off and snap some photos. All of the window framing has been redone in teak, and windows are dark tinted.

After looking thru this great site, and seeing some of the beautiful expresses (such as Dreamsicle), I have to agree with a previous poster that the custom work on this one has taken away from the original Express style, but she is still gorgeous (at least I think so).

Sea trial is set for next week.

[Carl]

As long as you and your better half like it...that's all that counts. And no matter how you dress her up, it's Still A 31 Bertram, the best boat ever made!

It does have some beautiful workmanship, love to see some pics with covers off.

It is interesting not one picture of the engines...but then that is what gets "my blood flowing".

Good bad or indiffernt, I try to tell friends everything bad I see and think "before they buy", cause after it's to late.

Best of luck with the sea trials, let us know how it goes.

Carl

[Bob H.]

hb, I agree with the others on a good hull to start with..my 66 had gelcoat issues and LOTS of time to repair. Good clean boat to start a project saves time and $$$$$...Hey Harry you gonna do the fancy woodwork like this one???

[Harry Babb]

Carl.....for starters I don't particularly care for Volvo products at all. I had a Volvo car....parts were expensive and the car was not much better than anything else that I have ever driven.

But.....I cannot see how Volvo has stayed in business as many years as they have if the engines are "Totally Trash" as they have been portrayed here

A few of the boats around here have Volvo's and the only bad thing I ever hear is that when you need parts (starters, pumps, gaskets etc) they are hard to find and very very expensive.

I don't know what's up with the broken alternator bracket but something just don't sound right......I wonder if something else is wrong stressing the bracket.

My old Marine Power gassers would eat a set of belts every couple of trips....pulleys were very rusty.....new aluminum pulleys cured the problem....

The 4 cylinder gas Volvo's are great little engines and I think the outdrives are good too. The Volvo diesel engines in blow boats last for years and years (obviously low hours).....they are seawater cooled....

Personally I would rather not have a pair of the larger Volvo engines buttttttt.....they would not be a show stopper for me....I can correct all of the piddley little problems as long as pistons and rods and cranks stay where they are supposed to....

Bob....That fancy wood work is absolutely beautiful and I really mean beautiful....on someone elses boat.....I would like a little wood just for the warm look.....but all I can see when I look at it is hours and hours and hours of rubbing on it to keep it in shape.........how bout chew...get many hours on your baby this week......BTW...do you have a name for your ole girl yet???

Guess I will stop here.....I'm running out of words.....

Harry

[Carl]

Harry- for you and me we have a bad bracket setup, we bring it to the shop and come back a few hours later with one that works. The Average Joe is screwed, a machine shop isn't going to reverse engineer a bracket on the cheap, even on the cheap it would cost more then the standard defective bracket so which way does he turn. The same can be said for pulleys, seals, O-rings etc.

I had a Volvo gas I/O setup in one of my early boats, it ran great. I did have to make a stupid little Pin for the outdrive as I could not find anywhere other then special order and I wasn't going to waste a weekend waiting for it to come in. But other then that I was real happy with it.

I know of several guys that have Volvos and for the most part they like them, I did hear several grumbles that mimic what UV said in terms of over engineering and steep prices, but every breakdown the owner thinks it cost too much and the job is tougher then they thought it should be.

At the end of the day I would buy a pair of Volvos if the price and condition was right. But I would not buy with my heart, it would be an educated endeavor where I was not just closing my eyes to potential problems and hoping for the best. That is all I am trying to convey.

Carl

[Harry Babb]

Sorry for the hijack....

I started another post called "Repairs on the cheap" so we can continue our discussion

Harry

[Tony Meola]

Like Capt. Pat said, it looks like a lot of the restoration is done for you. If the wiring is in good shape and it would just be replacing engines a pair of 270 reman cummins with transmissions would go around $40,000 not installed. If you need shafts/ struts and so on the cost will jump.

By the way like Brewster said, you could easily hit $80,000. I figured I could do mine for $60,000. I saw that number way back when and I am only doing from the Cabin Bulkhead back plus the wiring.

Good luck and follow your heart.