453 detroit diesel

[DavidDW]

Hi Guys,

This is my first post on the site. I have spent many hours looking around the forums and navigating the betram31 site generally. What a great place and what a useful resource.

I live in Australia and don't have a 31 bertram. In fact, there are only 3 B31s in Australia that I know of.

I am completely rebuilding a boat that has similar traits to a B31 and makes me feel the same good things about my boat as you guys do about yours!

It's a 32 cresta gamefisherman. I have a few old photos of it up on www.fishcrazy.net. It's an old boat that I am completely rebuilding pretty much from the ground up. I have done 99% of the work myself. My best friend is probably my 4" grinder and the 100s of 40 grit grindign pads I have been through.



About 65 32 Crestas were built all with shaft drives. Some were diesel powered but the majority were petrol powered. I managed to get my hands on the only one built with sterndrives for a good price. I am converting the boat to a shaftdrive configuration. I trucked the boat 4500km across the country to Sydney where she is now sitting on a hardstand. It is a massive job. A full transom rebuild is just the tip of the iceberg.



I am nearing the stage where I am going to drop engines into it. I have set it up for 6bta 330's and have calculated a cruising speed of around 20 knots with a top of 26/27knots fully loaded on 1.5:1 boxes spinning 20" props. The boat is heavy at just over 17 tons including 360 gallons of fuel and water.

Originally the boat ran 2 x horizontal perkins engines @ 140hp. Top speed was around 17knots

Here's the problem. Being an out of work Banker, at this time I just can't justify the extra $ it is going to take to get the boat on the water with the cummins. I am very seriously considering putting in a set of 453n detroits setting them up on 6" exhausts and repowering with a set of cummins down the track if the noise/smell/slowness and $ allows me to. I just want to be able to use the boat, and have a break from the build and the financial stress.



I know it will be slow with the 453ns but the engines should give it the same running characteristics as it would have with the old perkins and I can live with that. The noise and smell I can cope with as well.



If looking at a set of 453ns are there any inherent problems I should be aware of? Rebuildability appeals to me and they seem to be very simple. I will definately be installing oil drip trays in the engine room! I know parts availability is going to be an issue going forward but for the $ savings, I would be prepared to buy engines for parts if necessary.

I also noticed that it seems that ~165hp in a 453n is possible with 71 series valve seats and guides. Does this sound plausible? I would not be able to fit anything taller than a 453 and a 653 would be just too physically big and heavy for the boat.

Any help would be most appreciated and I am looking forward to contributing to the forums.



David.

[Carl]

David,

Welcome to the forum!

Looks like you took on one hell of a project, best of luck to you.

I was considering 4-53's and 6-53's as an alternative to Gas (Petro) a couple years back. The relative cost of the motors made them somewhat attractive. I too could deal with the sound, oil drip ( although they are supposed to be somewhat cleaner with mist collectors) smoke and somewhat low power to weight ratio when compared to what is available today. I figured I could get it to work and would be a step in the right direction. When funds became available I would swap out to a better motor choice.

So what made me stop? Although the motor are slow reving, straight forward and sort of simple in design allowing them to last for years...parts are becoming a problem to locate. I have 440 gas engines in my boat and have several spares. What I find funny, no matter what seems to go wrong with the engines, it always seems to be a part I do not have on the spares. Add to that I needed to change the whole drive line to swing a bigger wheel, and it just stopped making sence for me.

Carl

[Rawleigh]

Scot is the man to answer these questions!! He is our resident DD expert!!

[Vince Luciani]

David,

I know where you are with your decision. I ran 4-53's for 8 years before I repowered with Cummins 330's. The thing that got to me with the old Detroits was the messy bilge. I just couldn't control the "oil slingin". Whenever my bilge pumped I was fearful of getting fined.

Also, being from the northeast, canyon trips took an excrutiating amount of time (cruise was 17 knots on a good day). I never really had a problem with parts availablity, but that may be changing. I had Johson & Towers around the corner from my old office (Mt. Laurel, NJ).

You really can't compare the detroits with the cummins. They are 2 different animals. The ride with the new cummins is totally different. The bertram 31 was made to cruise above 17 knots. The boat just doesn't perform as well at 17 knots. I don't know about your boat, but I would imagine it's similiar.

I know the money adds up, but when you factor the cost of an entire repower package, the cost of the engines is just one of the costs. In the end, I couldn't justify spending the money on new engine beds, exhaust, deck etc. and putting back rebuilt 4-53's. So I bit the bullet and went for the Cummins Recons. I have no regrets! Hope this helps.

Vince

[scot]

Scot is the man to answer these questions!! He is our resident DD expert!!

All I have to say to that Rawleigh is we're in deep sh** if I'm the DD expert..lol.

First David, your a wild man. Your project is indepth and worthy. Certain series of Detroits are begining to struggle with easy-to-find parts, the 53 series is one of them. The 71 series is well supported and will be into the future, just too many of them out there and very large after-market support.

The 453 is messier, and louder than 71 series engines. 53's turn 2800 vs 2300 of the 71 series=more noise.

The 453 also requires a "T" series block if you want to turbocharge it for more hp's. The 71's do not, both turbo and non-turbo use the same block.

My first question is "why do you need 2 engines?". The boat is gutted, money is tight, put a single in it. Unless it's that whole Great White thing you guys have down there. Less fuel, less maintenance (less reliability..lol) Get a REALLY good SAT phone! they are XXX cheaper than a second engine.

The boat could hold a bunch of different engines, either single or twin, but I'm having a hard time seeing 35,000lbs?

If you must have twin little DDs...look at twin 371TA. (never actually produced by Detroit) Start with 2 old genset 371's. By installing turbo liner and pistons, turbo seals in the blower, a turbocharger and aftercooler + N95-110 injectors, turbo valves and the 371 can make 220-240hp all day. Basically 1/2 of a 671TA 450-485hp. Smoother engine, parts are cheap and plentiful, plus the bottom end of the engine is XX stronger than a 453.

These 2 Detroits have basically the same cu in. One is 212 cu in (453), the other is 213 cu in(371).

They are taller than 453's, and 200esh lbs heavier. Get your parts off ANY inline 71 series (371 / 471 / 671)...all front and rear accesories bolt on, not to mention pistons, rods, liners, etc.

Not the best engine advice you may get, but certainly a reliable, econo twin diesel installation.

Good luck (I'd find a whopper of a single if I were you!)

[DavidDW]

Hi Guys - thanks for your replies. I'll reply to each as there are a lot of good points that I think are worth addressing and putting into context in my situation.

Hi Carl,

Thanks for the reply and the welcome. I am in a similar position to where you were but I don't have any running gear in the boat at all. It all has to go in yet- rudders, skegs, shafts, exhausts and fuel tanks. I'm looking at setting the boat up so as to make minimal changes if I decide to repower down the track (fitting 5" exhausts in the cockpit section at least)
For me, putting gas in would be a cheap option but I'm just not that comfortable with having so much fuel on the boat or the fuel usage. I just can't make the economics work with gas when my starting point is no engines at all Running costs would be considerably higher in this part of the world (our family previously had a B25 powered by gas engines and I have spent time on a gas powered B28)

I guess it helps to say that an average day fishing in this part of the world is a 20-30mile run out, 8-9hrs trolling at 6knots fishing lures (or 1-2knots if pulling live baits) followed by a 20-30mile run home. The split between lure and bait fishing works out to be about 50/50 over the average season.


Hi Vince,

Thanks for the reply - It definately helps. Though I haven't witnessed the true oil slinging ability of the 453s in person, I am installing drip trays that I am hoping will lessen the maintainence somewhat. I hate the idea of the messy bilge especially as she is now looking brand new and sparkling! But I have to draw the line somewhere on the $ front. I'm only 28 and took on this project 4 years ago. I have been lucky in that I have been able to do 95% of the whole rebuild myself.

I used to speak to a couple of bankers that fished out of New York - I don't know if this is where you are fishing out of but is was something like a 70 mile run to fish (so they said). If I had to do this @ 17knts, well, I just don't think I could. But, I think I could do it for 20-30miles and just cope with getting up 40 minutes earlier to go fishing and come home a little later than everyone else. On the east coast of AU, generally you are running into a head sea when going out and coming home with a following sea. The average cruise of the fleet when going out is ~20 knots and coming home ~24knots. The prevailing wind comes from the northeast and you don't really go out in anything where the wind is over 25knots (it is just too gnarly and unfishable when lure trolling)

The boat generally (I made sure I fished a few times off one that floated and ran before I bought one) feels great going into a 3-4foot head sea at around 20 knots. It's a deep v and can tend to pound. In a following sea, any speed over about 25knots (when surfing it) in my opinion she starts to feel tender and you know she is thinking about broaching. Of course when it is flat calm (15% of the time) you could go everwhere at 28knots and it would be fine apart from the fuel burn.

The 30k difference in price from 453s to 6bta330s (by the time I factor in large props, shafts, skegs plus engine price- (It sounds like a big $ difference and it is- Australia is not a good place to buy marine gear there is just no scale to the market) I just can't rationalise (in 5 years I might be able to as things change and I get a bit older and wiser). It buys a lot of fuel. I really do want to stick a pair of m3 6bts (even the 210hp models would be fine) but the extra time saving and trouble it will cause with the girlfriend will end up costing probably the girlfriend and a lot of time without a boat. (I can only make the girlfriend spend so many hours grinding fibreglass and mixing ve resin and cabosil in epoxy before she leaves me!)

Hi Scot,

I am glad I got a bite from you! It is a great reply and makes me sad in a way as I really closely considered a pair of 371TA (for all the reasons you mentioned)

Before I go on I should demonstrate just how wild this project is. When I was a fresh/exicited/new (old) boat owner. I was advised by a reputable fibreglass boat builder to grind back the bottom of the boat with a 4 inch grinder. So I did this... I then ended up "needing" a full bottom job, re-building the strakes. All of this was unecessary of course and I was taken for a ride. Glassing the underside of a 32 foot boat upside down, in Australia over a summer of hot days (not Texas but I'm not tough enough for Texas!) all for nothing... Now I ask a million questions before doing anything I'm not sure of and am wary of boatbuilders. (you should see me on a grinder now though... wow sight to be seen!)

By the way, I think your prop tunnel and B25 project is pretty wild too!

I have spent many hours on your CSSIMS site poking around and have learnt a lot. In fact, b25 drive decisions was a big part of my initial engine evaluation and made things very easy - I have considered most of the options you have listed there at one stage or another.

The boat is primarily being built to chase marlin on heavy tackle. We fish standup 80lb on blue marlin on the little 18' trailerboat. I just can't fish heavier than standup 80lb without a chair. I would have been happy to move to a boat such as a B25 single powered diesel if I was content to keep on fishing the way we have been. I really want to stick with a twin installation because of manouvability at the end game of the fight as well as ease of berthing, and reliability.

I was also involved in an unfortunate breakdown incident 50miles out to sea in a single engined boat - one that very nearly ended in tears. I don't want to compromise on safety any further than my crew requiring ear muffs and breathing equipment to go fishing with DDs. I don't want to go back to sterndrives either- too many bad memories.

The boat is calculated to weigh 8tonnes/ 17,600lbs (as close as I can estimate speaking to a bunch of different people including the builder and keeping logs as to the build including materials etc). I'll try and post up numbers in imperical in future to avoid any confusion.

The 453 footprint is the highest I can fit in the boat. 36" high is really pushing the height envelope and will require me to modify my 6bta built- to-suit engine bearers somewhat. The boat is notoriously difficult to repower due to height restrictions. The ceiling height in the back half of the saloon where the engines will go is 5'9" (it works because I have laid it out in such a fashion that the effects are minimal - probably a topic for another thread) and I just can't raise it any further and have to draw a trade- off line somewhere. Engine boxes like in the B31s won't work either due to the closeness of the engines (distance between them won't allow a walkway). It rules out 471s and 371s. This is really annoying as if I could make it work, I would be pestering you for info as the where I could pick up the gear I needed instead of sitting in front of this screen getting finger cramp! It would have been a very easy decision to make for all the reasons you mentioned. I would be happy if I could get by without turbo charging them if I can get ~165hp in natural configuration without overstressing and blowing them up. Do you think they would be reliable at 165hp?

I honestly don't see the boat having the budget $wise engines in them for longer than 5 years unless I end up going deaf and lose my sense of smell in the interim.