Fresh rebuild 1st start-up

scenarioL113 · Post by **scenarioL113** » Jul 29th, '09, 19:36

I am gonna start one of my 4BT's for the first time after a fresh rebuild. The head was redone when it was out as well.

Is there anything I should beware of or do to make sure it goes well.

Here is what I have done so far:

1st off there is oil in the crankcase and ATF in the tranny's and filters are in place.

I hooked up an oil pressure gauge to look at in cockpit

Wired the IP solenoid to a 12V+

Primed the fuel filter with diesel

All raw water cooling hoses are in place and Heat Xchngr is full w coolant

Engine and trans are bolted down

Fuel line in and return are connected to a remote container

Only the exhaust wet elbow is hooked up after the turbo

Have I missed anything and how much cranking should I expect before she fires up?

This is only to get it running the boat is still in drydock and I will connect a water supply to the raw water system as well.

If it has trouble firing up is there any suggestions that others may offer if they had problems.

I am not expecting prob's but they always seem to find me.

Frank

Bob H. · Post by **Bob H.** » Jul 29th, '09, 19:46

Frank, The cummins tech changed the fuel filters before firing my rebuilds then he removed the impeller from the raw water pump, ran the engine until it reached temps then shut them down. Removing the impeller allows you to run them on a garden hose. Get good oil pressure asap or shut em down. Good luck...BH

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Jul 29th, '09, 20:41

Crank engine with shut down engaged until you see oil pressure, then start.

This may take 1 to 5 10 second cranking cycles.

After thats done crack the injector pump bleed and use primer to purge air. Then crack the injector lines at the injectors till you have fluid comming out each line while cranking over engine(note: don't engage shut down). Tighten.

ENgine should start within 1 or 2 crank cycles after that.

Upon startup watch oil pressure for psi and steady reading then check coolant level for air bubble purge.

I also recomend to remove impeller for hose use.

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Jul 29th, '09, 21:10

You may want to remove the raw water pump completely.......

I ran one after removing the impeller.....on my Shamrock and destroyed the mechanical seal...running it dry.

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Jul 30th, '09, 08:27

When I first started my 6B's after seven years of storage I went through all the procedures that have been listed. Couldn't get the starboard to prime. Took about a half gallon of diesel in the bilge to learn the trick. Since mine is an express I was straddling the engine to see the gauges and when it finally cracked the noise scared me so badly I grabbed the key and shut it down. What was that loud noise??!!??
Did I feel like an idiot. Yea, but with a s*#t-eating grin.
Good luck!

DRIFTER31 · Post by **DRIFTER31** » Jul 30th, '09, 09:29

If you dont want to remove the impellor or pump just take the hose off the sea strainer and run it into a 5 gallon bucket and let the garden hose run in the bucket while running. I did this on the 210's and it worked fine. You will be able to run for about 20seconds but it was enough to test wot-no load and set tachs etc... Troy

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Jul 30th, '09, 11:43

Harry,
Good point. If the pump type uses a two piece seal assembly it needs water to lube.

Standard lip seals should do fine unless there is residual growth or salt crystals around the seal that will cause abrasion.

If you do the bucket becareful. Most pumps at idle will overcome a full on hose.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jul 30th, '09, 12:53

DRIFTER31 wrote:If you dont want to remove the impellor or pump just take the hose off the sea strainer and run it into a 5 gallon bucket and let the garden hose run in the bucket while running. I did this on the 210's and it worked fine. You will be able to run for about 20seconds but it was enough to test wot-no load and set tachs etc... Troy

Not sure if running WOT on an engine warmed up for a whole 20 seconds is the best idea.

Two hoses (from different sources) or

Not sure if its Kosher, but let the water from the dumps collect in the bucket to which you can add the garden hose and intake line. Kind of like running a small outbourd in a trash can of water.

scenarioL113 · Post by **scenarioL113** » Jul 30th, '09, 17:37

Not such a good day!

Worked all day and we noticed right off the bat we were not gettting oil pressure when cranking.

We checked the pump, the oil cooler assembly and many other things and came up with noting!

We switched the oil pump with the other one I have from the port engine and no difference.

We gave up on that and were just trying to fire the engine for an immediate shutdown.

After much cranking we got the engine running and even running we got no oil pressure.

We removed the oil pressure sender and fired it up again to see if maybe the gauge was the problem and it was dry with no oil coming out when running.

I think we are gonna have to drop the oil pan to check the pick-up tube.

We know it is in place but we have no where else to go for more troubleshooting.

Atleast I know it runs!

Still scratching my head, this MUST be fixed before I can run it anymore.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jul 30th, '09, 20:06

you say you checked the oil cooler assembly.i am telling you that it is damn near impossible for a cummins 4bt/6bta not to pump oil.the oil pump consist of two steel gears one against the other. low oil from worn gears possibly after 100/000 hours and four rebuilts. was the oil galley rodded out was the block boil and wash??

scenarioL113 · Post by **scenarioL113** » Jul 30th, '09, 21:29

Yes block was boiled out at machine shop from very reputable guy we been using for 35 years.

The passage ways for the oil are all clear, we packed the oil pump with grease, and also with only motor oil, and a little of both.

The oil pump is not pumping the oil from the crankcase, as if it can not get a prime.

The engines sat over the winter with no oil in the crankcase but everything was heavily lubricated with motor oil as it was assembled.

We are going to drop the pan even though we are sure the pick-up tube is properly installed, I dont know what else to do, very frustrated to say the least!
Maybe something didnt seal properly or maybe the pick-up tube is cracked or something....I dont know.

I agree the oil pump is as simple as it can be, 2 gears and thats it, we followed the procedure right out of the Cummins manual.

I am sure it is getting no oil pressure.

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Jul 30th, '09, 21:56

There is a chance that your oil pressure problem is as simple as the incorrect oil pan gasket.

The setup on my Cummins goes like this......The pickup tube is secured to the oil pan and the flanged end bolts to a cast "Galley" in the front corner of the pan. That cast "Galley" lines up with a hole in the block that leads to the suction side of the pump.

I believe that this setup is made specifically for marine use and it takes a special oil pan gasket.

You can recognize and identify this setup by looking for 2 very long bolts (may be 4" long) in the front right hand side of the pan as view from the flywheel end of the engine.

Other than the possibilty I stated above just make sure you have the correct gaskets on the oil cooler...

Now understand that my engines are 6 cylinder and I am only assuming that the 4 banger is setup the same way......like Bob indicated....its nearly impossible to NOT have oil pressure on the Cummins

scenarioL113 · Post by **scenarioL113** » Jul 30th, '09, 22:09

We checked the cooler and the gasket we are using is not covering any of the holes which may block the passage of the oil.

The oil pan gasket was ordered from Cummins by the CPL but that does not mean it is the right one, are you saying it (the oil pan gasket) is possibly too thick or not allowing the pick-up tube to mate to the flange of the oil galley.

I appreciate all the input it will help me to look at multiple things when I get it apart.

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Jul 30th, '09, 23:08

Frank,
The only 6B engines that I have EVER overhauled are mine...the one's that I intend to put in DeNada sometime before the end of this century.

I, like you, ordered all of my parts as per the CPL number....and the oil pan gasket was WRONG.....actually so was the timing cover gasket.

On my engine the oil pickup tube did NOT attach to the engine block....the oil pickup tube attached to a special cast detail that formed a little short "oil passage" in the oil pan.

The oil pan gasket that came with the Gasket set simply went around the perimeter of the oil pan......BUT the gasket that I needed and had to reorder went all of the way around the perimeter of the pan but had an "EXTRA" detail in the right front corner that encompassed the passage in the oil pan that connected the pickup tube passage in the pan to the engine block.

Do you remember if 2 of the oil pan bolts were much longer than all of the rest of the bolts??.......the 2 bolts that I am talking about are located in the right front corner of the oil pan.....these 2 bolts straddle the oil passage hole in the pan.

I really don't know for sure if all of the Cummins marine engines are setup this way.....but I do know that mine are because I had to reorder the correct oil pan gaskets for my engines.

I'm not saying that the gasket is to thick....I am saying that if your engine is like mine, that your gasket may be missing the entire detail that seals the suction/pickup passage in the oil pan to the block........there by leaving a gap between the pan and the block where the oil pickup passage in the pan meets the block......the gap will be the thickness of the gasket....and because of this the pump is sucking air....not getting prime

Harry

scenarioL113 · Post by **scenarioL113** » Jul 30th, '09, 23:15

Well that is very possible and unfortunately I dont recall but will know as soon as we drop the pan.

on another note:
When I sent the block out to the machine shop, is it possible there may be some kind of plug or galley plug that they could have removed and we overlooked when re-assembling.

We dont recall seeing anything like that but I have been searching and this has been possible problems for other (non-cummins) engines.

I am picking at straws but.....

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Jul 30th, '09, 23:46

The only "Oil" plug that I remember is the Camshaft plug....I am pretty sure that even if a plug was missing you would still have some oil flow at the sending unit....even if it did not build pressure.

There may have been some plugs....but I just don't remember.

Keep us posted.....you have really sparked my curiosity....

When I was in a junior in high school a buddy of mine bought a Volkswagon and the disassembled engine was in the backseat. I voluntered to put it back together. After assembly I started the engine, did not have a pressure gage, so I just unscrewed the oil pressure sending unit and had "Oil Flow"....notice I said "Oil Flow" not pressure.

Well this was the first engine I had ever rebuilt. The car made it to the Fish river bridge and when the engine locked up my buddy told me that it skid the tires on the pavment.

I had forgotten (most likely did not even know) to put the oil pressure relief spring and plunger in the block. All the pump was doing was circulating oil....pumping none of it to the bearings.....my point here is that even though the plunger was missing....the pump was atleast showing some flow.

Harry

Harry

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jul 31st, '09, 07:46

frank this is the marine version of the oil pan assembly notice number 11 called flange gasket.did you put this on correctly?

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jul 31st, '09, 07:48

harry was referring to the two bolts (#6) please take note .wrong bolts and no seal !!

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Jul 31st, '09, 08:36

What kind of grease did you use to pack the pump? Too viscose and it may not pump. Had that once in a car engine.

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Jul 31st, '09, 08:50

dare ya go Bob.....a picuture is worth a thousand words....

..you da man! ! !

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Jul 31st, '09, 09:38

I've said it before and I'll say it again...What a site!

scenarioL113 · Post by **scenarioL113** » Jul 31st, '09, 12:28

I did not drop the pan yet will do it either this afternoon or if not Sunday, I have to go in for a 24hr shift in about 2 hrs so.....

When I get it off I will post results as asap

scenarioL113 · Post by **scenarioL113** » Jul 31st, '09, 15:16

Harry

Looks like you were right

dont have time tyo talk now but will give full report by sunday night.

We did drop pan and yes that area was void of gasket material.

scenarioL113 · Post by **scenarioL113** » Aug 1st, '09, 20:22

Harry was correct!

THANK YOU!!!!

The info gave me a place to look once the oil pan was dropped. Instead of ordering a new gasket we had an extra flange gasket.

We put the "extra" flange gasket on the area that the oil pan should have covered.

Fired it up and oil pressure was instantaneous!

I feel good, it was an oversight when we assembled the engine. Unfortunately there was over a month in between the disassembly and assembly of the engines and we made a mistake.

Thanks again and hopefully this thread will help someone else out that may experience a similar problem.

THANKS AGAIN!!!!!

Frank V

Capt Dick Dean · Post by **Capt Dick Dean** » Aug 2nd, '09, 03:31

Hey, Walter
You are so right!

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Aug 2nd, '09, 07:23

That's cool Frank.....glad it worked for ya

Harry

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Fresh rebuild 1st start-up

Fresh rebuild 1st start-up

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