New marine diesel

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Jul 8th, '09, 17:28

That is rather impressive. Sure much tougher in a boat but design still seems very innovative.

STraenkle · Post by **STraenkle** » Jul 9th, '09, 08:39

I like the engines, too bad I just put in new 496 gas. Well I guess I can start saving up for them now.

Oh and I like the DYNO, I designed the brake for it and wrote the DYNO-MAX software that controls it, and wrote the firmware for the controller, etc. I worked at Land and Sea for more that 8 years. I hope you enjoy it Mike, and if you have any questions about it I would be happy to help.

Harv · Post by **Harv** » Jul 9th, '09, 09:19

And they didn't even get dirty.
I spoke with Mike last year on a few occasions, and based on our discussions, the 3 cylinder pair would be perfect in the 31.
Unfortunately for me, being out of work for 2 years and now recovering from the back surgery, my money is very tight. If Mike is looking for a test platform I would be very happy to oblige.

Major · Post by **Major** » Jul 9th, '09, 21:10

Humm... Looks like a possable solution to my current problem. If i could get that 300HP easy from the 4 cylinder my 28 may have 2 new hearts if things pan out. Going by the forecast 300 hp from the 4 cylinder should be reletivly efficent if the 3 cylinder will put out 300. If only money came as easy as information.

I think you definatly have everyones attention and i definatly think you went the right way by building the engine somewhat modular. That pretty much helps everyone. What are you seeing as far as fuel burn on your test engines? Are they comparable to the current offerings?

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Jul 9th, '09, 21:21

Mike,

Any idea of marine transmission options yet? Just make & model, not ratio...

Looking good!

Br,

Patrick

pacific marlin · Post by **pacific marlin** » Jul 10th, '09, 03:32

Mike
If you need a volunteer/guinea pig over in the UK,just send me two for the B31 and another for the B25, I'd be happy to help, it's just the way I am.
Oh, and could you buy the groceries and pay the mortgage please.
Ian.

Buju · Post by **Buju** » Jul 10th, '09, 04:45

Jeeez Ian, did Obama just make a surprise visit to the UK? It sounds like you've got a sudden case of "hope & change" entiltlement fever.
Just kiddin around, like yourself, of course...

pacific marlin · Post by **pacific marlin** » Jul 10th, '09, 05:19

Hey mate, you're up early,
Yeah , tounge in cheek, need to win the lottery thats all.
Ian

Charlie · Post by **Charlie** » Jul 10th, '09, 07:02

Ok Nov 2009 to July 2009; and what do we have? A video showing the removal of a jug. Yes in record time; but so what. I would rather have it stay together then have to tear it down. Mike I sure you have a plan. When will the engine be on the market? I have been involved in designing some very complex equipment; so what's the plan?

kmb 1949 · Post by **kmb 1949** » Jul 11th, '09, 19:32

I'll answer Charlie first. You must be still swigging those martinis, Charlie. The six cylinder production engine will be 9.5 liters and weigh under 1700 pounds. Find the lightest 9.5 you can and see what it weighs. I don't think I have ever seen an engine last forever or outlast the boat. They all have to be worked on eventually. Over ninety percent of engine failures occur in the cylinder or cylinder head. Therefore quick and easy cylinder replacement is a plus. I don't think Nov. 2009 has come yet but if you are making fun of the time it is taking to finish this, Cat's last engine took five years and they spent over 500 million dollars on it. Give me a break.
Bruce, I understand your point. This engine will require approximately 6 inches above the engine to remove the cylinder. Most boats have removable hatches but if you are all glassed in six inches will do it. This engine is less than 31 inches tall and with 2 inches below and 6 above, all you need is 39 inches total. The really neat thing is the heaviest part of the six is 260 pounds and the engine can be disassembled and removed through a 26 x 12 hole if need be. No hoist or crane needed. I have not tried it yet but I believe I can change a cylinder with the engine in a tight installation and using hand tools in less than 30 minutes by myself. For those long trips you could take a kit with.
Capt. Patrick, all our engines use a SAE II bell housing. There are a number of Twin Disc anf ZF that should work fine.
S Traenkle, the brake computer and software have been fine. The brake was a different matter. Very poor design for bearings and seals. I designed and built a new brake from scratch and it has performed well. I went to school on the Dynamite.

Harv · Post by **Harv** » Jul 11th, '09, 22:49

Major wrote:Humm... Looks like a possable solution to my current problem. If i could get that 300HP easy from the 4 cylinder my 28 may have 2 new hearts if things pan out. Going by the forecast 300 hp from the 4 cylinder should be reletivly efficent if the 3 cylinder will put out 300. If only money came as easy as information.

I think you definatly have everyones attention and i definatly think you went the right way by building the engine somewhat modular. That pretty much helps everyone. What are you seeing as far as fuel burn on your test engines? Are they comparable to the current offerings?

As mentioned before, I had spoken to Mike on a few occasions. One thing that sticks out in my memory is that these engines are actually quite ginormous physically, compared to other same number of cylinder diesels on the market. The 4 cylinder is actually too large for a 28. That is why I feel the 300hp 3 cylinder should do quite well for a 31.

Now as I fisrt mentioned before, If Mike is only willing to work out a nice arrangement for a 31 test platform in NY, I might be able to accomodate him.

kmb 1949 · Post by **kmb 1949** » Jul 12th, '09, 16:06

Harv, I think the 4 will fit. The dimensions are on the web site under specifications. Check it out. www.buckdiesel.com

Charlie · Post by **Charlie** » Jul 12th, '09, 19:58

kbm my dates got messed up they should have read Nov 2006 to July 2009. Three years and not much to show. I have seen lots of engine ideas come and go. Not many ever get to market and if they do they don't seems to stay around long. That is why I wanted to know if you have a plan? Gantt Chart?
Sure I would like to see may Cat 3208 heads come off like yours. Hell I can't even lift a 3208 head while laying on my back under the kitchen sink.

Just wondering if this engine is for real or just smoke and mirrors. Don't get all pissy.
By the way I only drink martinis is at the Bertram Rendezvous when DOC makes up a few.

Kurt Weber · Post by **Kurt Weber** » Jul 12th, '09, 21:38

what is the bore and stroke of the 9.5 litre six?

scot · Post by **scot** » Jul 12th, '09, 22:41

3 cylinder should do quite well

Oddly enough, appartlently 3 cyl engines are extremely smooth running. In fact the guys at Stewart & Stevenson tell me that the 371 Detroits are one of the smoothest running engines Detroit ever made.

Somehow a 3 cyl engine just seems weird, but I'm no diesel engine deisgner and I trust those guys experience & expertise a bunch.

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Jul 13th, '09, 06:55

The BMW K75 (inline 3) is the smoothest motorcycle engine I've ever seen.....

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Jul 13th, '09, 07:06

No matter how the crankshaft rotates on a 3 cylinder, the combined center of gravity of all 3 pistons and connecting rods will remain at the same location.

This produces no vibration.

As kids we are sorta taught odd/even numbers and that evens are better because they can be divided easier.
Elementary school witchcraft.

kmb 1949 · Post by **kmb 1949** » Jul 13th, '09, 07:32

Charlie, the only thing standing between this engine and great success is that little thing called money. Why don't you find me about 50 million and we will build a great company who's first and only priority is the boater and not their larger market business. A company where a human being actually answers the phone and where the factory will talk to the customer. A completely "Made in America Engine" employeeing American workers.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jul 13th, '09, 07:52

Overall quite impressive...but I think in my crowd you have to get some motors into boats and then get some real hours on them before you can expect real interest.

Knowing they can be torn down and put back together in record time is great, but we need to know chances are really good we'll never have to do that...at least not for many many years.

Carl

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Jul 13th, '09, 07:55

Mike wrote: A company where a human being actually answers the phone and where the factory will talk to the customer. A completely "Made in America Engine" employeeing American workers.

My dream also..........I wish you the best

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Jul 13th, '09, 08:16

While those are nice ideals, the public wants price and reliability.

Many American companies have found that the made in America brand is not profitable.

Company investors are gonna want a return on their money.

Mom, apple pie and Ford don't mean anything in the investment world.

kmb 1949 · Post by **kmb 1949** » Jul 13th, '09, 08:45

Carl, the next step is certainly putting about 30 engines in boats for additional testing. The six cylinder engine has a paper design for 1000 HP. The production engine will be under 700 hp. Lets take a look at a little engine design 101.
Heat is both our enemy and our friend. Heat in the cylinder makes power but heat transfered to parts does damage. Charlie's 3208 heats unevenly. The rear cylinders run hotter than the front cylinders. Uneven heating causes cylinder head issues. The honing instructions for a 3208 rebuild require more clearance for the rear cylinders in order to compensate for the problem of piston expansion due to more heat. The "Buck" engine was designed to cool better than any other engine. The cold coolant enters each cylinder individually so the last cylinder cools as well as the first. The engine has a very short cooling path (17"). Each cylinder has the same cooling path length. This means more coolant changes which results in better cooling. The cylinder jug and cylinder head are aluminum. Aluminum transfers heat at 6 times the rate of cast iron. Individual cylinder heads all but eleminate head gasket failure. The heads and cylinders can expand and contract without effecting the other cylinders. Better cooling equates to longer life.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Jul 13th, '09, 09:30

Reply with quote
Charlie, the only thing standing between this engine and great success is that little thing called money. Why don't you find me about 50 million and we will build a great company who's first and only priority is the boater and not their larger market business. A company where a human being actually answers the phone and where the factory will talk to the customer. A completely "Made in America Engine" employeeing American workers.

I couldn't agree with you more and wish you much success. THIS is where government stimulus money should be going! Not the AIG's of this world! Walter

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jul 13th, '09, 10:10

kmb 1949 wrote:Carl, the next step is certainly putting about 30 engines in boats for additional testing. The six cylinder engine has a paper design for 1000 HP. The production engine will be under 700 hp. Lets take a look at a little engine design 101.
------- Better cooling equates to longer life.

Mike, I understand your design is better on paper and should have a longer life. What needs to be seen is how will the design work in the real world.
While 3208's may have issues, they have proved themselves over the years to be a very good dependable motor under the correct circumstances. If given the choice to go fishing 100 miles offshore with a 3208 Cat powered boat or a boat with a "better Paper Designed Engine" or a "Lab Tested Motor" I would opt for the Ol' Cat powered boat. Offshore you can't just pull over to the side of the road and call Triple A.

What I'm really getting at is you have a better Mouse Trap on paper...now prove it.

Carl

For what it is worth I really wish you the best of successs.

kmb 1949 · Post by **kmb 1949** » Jul 13th, '09, 10:40

Believe me this engine won't be offered to the market until it is completely tested. Try this, running any engine you can find at 750 rpm with the sea cock closed and see how long it will run before over heating. This engine ran of over an hour just to get the coolant temperature to 200 degrees. I have given this engine pure hell in the test cell. I have encounted a few small issues but nothing serious. Except for the effects of things like boat slaming and rocking motions, most problems can be found in the test cell. There is a 400 hour non-stop NATO test that we will complete that should find pretty much all the problems. My only real concern at this time is electronic issues that might pop up. Everyone is running electronic Common Rail these days. Emission issues make it a must. No one really knows yet how this will hold up over time.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Jul 13th, '09, 10:58

Mike,
If you have some type of investment capital plan put together I am traveling up North in early August and can hand it over to some folks that could very well help you out or at the least put you in touch with other folks that could help.

I mentioned it to them when you first called me about the engine and they were interested then.

You can pm me with any questions if your at all interested.

I too like innovation and would like to see you succeed.

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Jul 13th, '09, 12:24

Mine will run without raw water and still take 15 minutes or so for the needle to begin rising. I can run them up to 1500 rpm without water. Steyrs are the only ones I have seen that could do that. If yours are that effecient too that is great. When can you start putting your engines in boats?
Would the 3 cylinder be something that could go in a car? I have always pondered diesel re-power in my mustang but it has not been done before(to my knowledge) due to wieght/transmission selection/motor mounting. Just how much power can you squeeze out of the 3? If it is that easy to take apart I would think maintenance for performance applications would be feasable for the weekend car hobbiest.
Your motors have me very interested. I hope you can accomplish your mission. We need people like you to succeed.

kmb 1949 · Post by **kmb 1949** » Jul 13th, '09, 12:34

Thanks for the encouragement Kevin. I see where people spent 30 million dollars in three days to watch a jackass act gay, you would think people would be interested in creating good manufacturing jobs.

Joef · Post by **Joef** » Jul 13th, '09, 12:57

Mike:

i think your idea is ahomerun...and would never discount the value of "made in america". While consumers have no special care if their cell phones, dishware or even cars come from, for many industrial equipment guys the tag still means something. And i can tell you as an employee at General Electric, we've found great sucess making money selling turbine engines, locomotives and even windmill generators and blades that are all "made in america"

...selling rubber dog poop - who cares. Diesel engines...plenty will care.

i hope you find a way to fund this - i'd love a pair for my boat

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jul 13th, '09, 12:57

I believe the Steyr motors will run up to 1500rpm indefintely with the seacocks closed. They will also run when if the electronic end of the motor goes down. I think you have to removing a cover and manually pushing the rack forward till she gets cranked up.

Slamming, pounding and rocking are some issues on the water. Other ones are the great Salt Air and Heat of the typical engine compartment. Hours at trolling speeds then long runs at cruise under load.

If your planning on selling to a fishing crowd they are going to want to know the sound of the engines won't drive the fish away from the boat. Some guys swear certain engines raise fish...can't test that in the lab.

Harv · Post by **Harv** » Jul 13th, '09, 13:16

Mike,
If I hit the Mega Millions, you will be the first person I call.

sim wrote: If your planning on selling to a fishing crowd they are going to want to know the sound of the engines won't drive the fish away from the boat. Some guys swear certain engines raise fish...can't test that in the lab.

Carl,
that is why I have offered my boat as a test platform.

kmb 1949 · Post by **kmb 1949** » Jul 14th, '09, 08:19

If you guys could have any three engine functions displayed, what would they be?

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jul 14th, '09, 09:23

Tach, temp & oil pressure... all analog no digital.

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Jul 14th, '09, 09:35

I would ditch oil pressure in favor of another temperature gauge. One for the fresh water side and one for the exhaust manifold.

An idiot light can tell you if your oil pressure is low, but a clogged strainer can burn your boat down.

Another thing....

I find that I run the boat more by the boost gauges than the tachometers.

So if I was putting it together today and could only have three, I would choose boost, fresh water coolant temp, and EGT.

scot · Post by **scot** » Jul 14th, '09, 09:37

temp / oil psi / tach
I'm old school, i can't function without any of these 3.

kmb 1949 · Post by **kmb 1949** » Jul 14th, '09, 10:50

What if you could read the dynamic cylinder pressures on each cylinder.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Jul 14th, '09, 11:26

I don't know if most of us would know what to do with that other than watch out for an abnormal difference between them or pressures out of specs provided to us. More of a diagnostic tool? Walter

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jul 14th, '09, 11:33

kmb 1949 wrote:What if you could read the dynamic cylinder pressures on each cylinder.

Does that relate to load % ?

kmb 1949 · Post by **kmb 1949** » Jul 14th, '09, 11:51

Absolutely. It also tells you the condition of the cylinder. Any problem that effects cylinder pressure can be detected. Rings, injector, valves, head gasket, etc.

scot · Post by **scot** » Jul 14th, '09, 11:52

I would prefer EGT over DCP...I think it would be a better indicator of a problem. DCP is a good diagnostic tool, but I'm not sure if most would benefit from it.

kmb 1949 · Post by **kmb 1949** » Jul 14th, '09, 11:57

EGT can't tell you that the valves aren't seating properly or that you have a broken ring or a number of other things that DCP can tell you. The cylinder pressure tells you what the cylinder heat is. The higher the pressure the greater the heat.

Joef · Post by **Joef** » Jul 14th, '09, 12:52

i would like Tachs, Boost, EGT - DCP, in my mind, would be a secondary item to check...although i see your logic. DCP is an "X" (input) factor. If all of your Xs are OK, then you don't even need to see your "Y" (output..ie, smoke, temps, etc). You need to be careful though...your an engineer - many boat owners are not and they will not appreciate having a dash that shows DCP, then having to understand what that means. Dont forget how many boat owners are doctors and lawyers (no offence Vic)...many of them just want to start the boat and go, and then be warned if there is a critical problem (like lack of seawater) that could cause a fire.

Can't all of this data be put onto LCD screens and customized by the user? I can practically land the spaceshuttle with my blackberry - i would think a well thought out data management module for an engine would be achieveable

kmb 1949 · Post by **kmb 1949** » Jul 14th, '09, 13:21

Have you ever performed a compression check on an engine to determine the condition of the cylinders? What is going on with the DCP is just that in real time but we are going to offer a new wrinkle. The ECU will control the engine by reading the DCP of each cylinder and balancing the load. This means that all the cylinders will operate at the same pressure depending on the throttle setting. Injector pulse width will be adjusted to maintain equal pressure. Equal pressure means even heating and even loading for longer life.

scot · Post by **scot** » Jul 14th, '09, 14:06

It's a trick, you didn't state that the DCP is feeding an ECU..lol. I thought it would be a stand alone gauge...and only one of 3 offered. I understand what the goal is now. So, if one cylinder goes south...they all go south, I need to ponder that one.

It does make totting around a spare jug/piston worth while if your dash can tell you which one to swap out. It may cause a boater to limp home..still better than roasting the entire unit. I like it.

kmb 1949 · Post by **kmb 1949** » Jul 14th, '09, 14:32

No. The cylinder pressures will be programed to maintain a certain operating proximity to one another and if one becomes outside the range an alarm will notify the operator. If a fuel injector began dumping too much fuel the cylinder pressure would immediately increase out of the operating range and you would know it and not melt the piston or gauld the cylinder. The reaction time is much faster than an EGT would ever be.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Jul 14th, '09, 15:42

Mike,

I curious as to how much response and interaction you're getting from other web forums similar to this one...

Br,

Patrick

kmb 1949 · Post by **kmb 1949** » Jul 14th, '09, 15:54

I am getting a great deal of interest from several forums, especially since we put up this last video.

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Jul 14th, '09, 21:26

Mike: As an old school boater I would feel more comfortable with the normal 3 analog guages: Tach , temp & oil, along with a digital programable display that could show such things as fuel consumption (actual and average, as well as MPG interfaced with the GPS), synch, hours, EGT, DCP, boost, temps on both sides of the cooling system, etc. Having a display that can show warnings, alarms diagnostics, and has a memory that can be accessed for analysis is a nice feature, but most boaters still want to see the big three on guages as well. Maybe they can be optional if someone wanted to go all digital.

I applaud your efforts. It is a tough time to be breaking into the market, but we all wish you well. This site is full of tough love sometimes, but the people do can about new products and want to see you succeed. keep us in the loop.

JP Dalik · Post by **JP Dalik** » Jul 14th, '09, 21:47

How will you read cylinder pressure?

Will there be another sensor in the head?

Will it be an algorythm based off of something else?

How does this engine series fit into the emission schedule as we move forward through 2012, as I understand things the EPA is looking at stricter diesel emissions for the maring industry (EGR, DPF, Urea?)

Is the current design planning on these future complications?

kmb 1949 · Post by **kmb 1949** » Jul 15th, '09, 06:32

JP, there is a sensor located in the head. It is actually a glow plug and pressure sensor combination. The digital display will offer different screens that display a multitude of information. We will make analog gage connections optional as well.

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