ugly

Bill G. · Post by **Bill G.** » Jan 19th, '09, 14:54

Hey Guys,..........ck out UGLY on hull truth,just when you think you've got boat problems.

Bill G. · Post by **Bill G.** » Jan 19th, '09, 15:11

sorry forgot to mention to look at the outdoor photo section

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Jan 19th, '09, 16:12

Double Ugggggly

Obviously Bertarm ain't makin' 'em like they used to..... Hey, Norberto, your bean counters need to loosen up a bit. I'd expect better than this even from Bayliner.

Whaler1777 · Post by **Whaler1777** » Jan 19th, '09, 16:12

Holy crapola http://www.thehulltruth.com/forums/thre ... 6&posts=19

Whaler1777 · Post by **Whaler1777** » Jan 19th, '09, 16:13

ahh ya beat me...

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Jan 19th, '09, 16:19

Wow... Words cannot express...

JP Dalik · Post by **JP Dalik** » Jan 19th, '09, 16:52

Heard about this last week. Not that the 630 was there best riding hull but didn't thinks they banged that hard.
There were similar issues with older boats but never like this.

They just don't build em like they used to.

First one this bad I've ever seen. I've heard about cold molded boats doing this and even looked at one that had a close call.

WOW!!!!!!!!! That's alot of patch work.

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Jan 19th, '09, 17:19

Patch!! More like five gallons of gas and a match!! OMG!! I would have crapped myself seeing that hanging off the side!!

randall · Post by **randall** » Jan 19th, '09, 18:15

my friend with the 60 might find this interesting...ill send it to him. YIKES!!

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Jan 19th, '09, 18:53

And people wonder why I hate coring. Walter

Harv · Post by **Harv** » Jan 19th, '09, 19:15

And to think about my gut feeling after riding the 410 in Atlantic City last summer. Me thinks I'll be content owning my 31 forever.

Capt. DQ · Post by **Capt. DQ** » Jan 19th, '09, 19:59

That could make you sweat a little offshore and see that happen to you. Thats really sad, all that wasted work & energy!

Glad I have one of the best ones ever made, the good ole' 67 model B31's. Back when they really used to much fiberglass the right way.

DQ

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Jan 19th, '09, 21:20

Really disappoints me butttttttt does not surprise me at all........to see something like that.

Disgusting.........

Harry

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jan 19th, '09, 21:59

the cabo saleman in montauk look me straight in the eye and said coring is great it makes the boat quiet inside,now you know what the modest bob lico said to him in return sorry i cannot repeat this on this site!!!.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Jan 19th, '09, 22:27

To think from one of the highest quality boats to just a below average boat living on its reputation.

Charlie · Post by **Charlie** » Jan 19th, '09, 22:49

Please tell me he hit a submarine at 30 kts. Any other answer is just not going to cut it. A good buddy of mine had a brand new 45 Ocean and we ran it like we stole it. It held together just fine. So much for flexible fliers.

JP Dalik · Post by **JP Dalik** » Jan 20th, '09, 07:54

They should be solid bottom cored sides if I remember right.

In case anyones local to NJ that's the replacement boat to the one out of Barnegat Light that used to have a tower. Went from a 63 with lots of problems to a 63 with one big problem. Word was they couldn't lift the boat and had to lift the bow to let the water flow out of the transom door. That means the entireengine room under the rear deck including generators a/c ice makers etc. are all junk.

Buju · Post by **Buju** » Jan 20th, '09, 10:22

As of now, I refuse to call any "Bertram" built after 10/98 anything but a Bertrretti... Incredible.
It's like being a kid again, and learning the truth about Santa all over. A big dissapointment, but you're better off with the new found knowledge.

It'll be interesting to see if this is an isolated incident, and/or what other horrors appear on the horizon. I know I wouldn't be feeeling too good about bringing my brand new Bertrretti 700 into the gulfstream after seeing that, especially with them "ultratrendy argentinian-style in-hull windows" on the 700 and the 540. I'd imagine in bad to moderate seas, if they experience delamination like this 630 did, that whole window is gonna pop right in/out and that sucka is going down...

I'll stick to the Hunt designed boats.... K.I.S.S.

DaveB · Post by **DaveB** » Jan 20th, '09, 19:29

Makes you think...would you rather spend your time and money on a 30+ year old "real bertram" hull or go with the 2009 model....

Hueso · Post by **Hueso** » Jan 20th, '09, 22:49

any model before 1988............if I'm going big, it would be a 1987 B54....change engines and that is it........

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Jan 24th, '09, 11:18

Posted on

http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/gener ... 3-a-2.html

"A long, long time ago--in the early '70s(+ or - a few years)-- Bertram tried it's hand at fully-cored hulls with an experimental prototype 31. It joined the fleet of Company Boats, as they were called, which could be used by some employees as a kind of perk. That 31, which, IIRC, was soon known as "The Snake", became off-limits for such use as it was deemed unsafe."

Any truth to this??? Did Bertram make a cored 31fter?

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Jan 24th, '09, 17:11

I have no idea who Loren Schweizer is, where his informational sources come from, or any reason to pick a debate with him. That being said, I highly doubt that he knows what he's talking about when he says there were some experimental cored hull B31s...

I have read, heard, and talked to members of the original B31 production crew, swapped emails with Lee Dana, & on just about every aspect of the B31 production knowledge base that's out there. This is the very first that I have ever heard of any core being found anywhere on any 31' Bertram, much less the hull.

Nothing in racing history, nothing in images & photos, nothing in word of mouth, no surfacing of listings, & no questions from someone who came to own such an oddity as a cored hull B31. Nope, none, nada... New one on me.

Now Schweizer drops some tid bits and even a boat name to tell his tale, and it sounds plausable, but...

Without concrete proof to the contrary, I gotta' call BS on the story of a cored hull Bertram 31.

Additionally, while some boat builders in the '60s were starting to experiment with sandwich composites, most were trying it out on superstructure elements such as decks, house tops, and interior bulkheads. I think that Searay was amoung the first builders to try coring a hull, and I think that Bertram's first attemps with coring didn't happen until the early '80s once they passed the 46' range

One of the earliest cored hull boats was the 44' Midnight Lace, designed by Tom Fexus in the early '80s. Almost no one messed with hull coring on a hull less than 40'... (Except, of course, foam filled hulls like the Bostom Whaler & Ranger bass boats. That ain't true coring though.)

Br,

Patrick

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Jan 24th, '09, 17:47

If in fact the early B-31's had heavier hulls (which they do) because they didn't know how much fiberglass was enough, why would they start screwing around with coring which they knew even less about?

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Jan 24th, '09, 18:06

Schweizer does denote this "experimentation" as being in the "early '70s(+ or - a few years)", Richard had by that time sold out to Whitaker, the bean counters were on the loose, and there could have been some non-traditional thinking going on at the plant by that time.

However, I'm still not buying the core story...

I'm going to call Richard Kidd on Monday and get the scoop from the "horse's mouth". Kidd was a delivery captain for the B31 then...

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jan 25th, '09, 10:53

It would be a good thing if the Cored 31 was a true story.

If it was true it means they where trying to improve upon the original design. Trying to make something better is a good thing.

What is better is two fold..1st the 31 could not be improved upon by coring and 2nd more importantly they learned from their mistake. Albeit not for very long as they cored other models...

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Jan 26th, '09, 10:26

OK, from the Horse's Mouth, AKA Richard Kidd:

There was an experiment with a 31 Bertram involving foam and the hull.

However, it was not a coring as anyone would think, ie: Divinycell sheet bonded to the hull and glassed over. Rather, it was an attempt to create a inner hull liner, standing away from the hull and then filled with 2 part expandable foam... The problems came from the foam itself, either incorrect mixing, improper application, or quality of the material, but it never set up correctly and expanded and contracted with ambient temperatures. This led to an constantly changing volumetric situation that raised holly hell with the fiberglass parts. Bertram declared it a disaster and cut the boat up.

They did, however, finally get the technique down well enough to use in certain void areas on the B20, B25, and B26 below the cockpit & cabin decks.

So, as suspected, no B31, or for that matter any Bertram hull built prior to the late '80s & the B72, ever had a cored hull.
(ref: Boat Reviews - Yachating Mag)

Br,

Patrick

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Feb 1st, '09, 09:21

I have a question Capt P. It may be a dumb one, but here it goes- couldn't you verify the presence or absence of voids, especially ones the size of this, using ultrasonic inspection? It is a common tool. If I were purchasing an expensive asset such as this it would strike me as a prudent precaution against concealed faults.
In fact I think that I would have this done before buying any cored boat.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Feb 1st, '09, 11:02

Joe,

Ultrasound would likely turn up some interesting finds but a rather expensive process. Most significant voids could be sounded out with plastic hammer but literally every square inch, inside and out, would have to be sounded. Another main worry, in my mind, would the bonding materials and techniques and the mechanical properties of the core composition. Even without voids, a cored hull can fall victim to flexural and impact loading that exceed the material strengths.

I think my rule of thumb statements to any potential buyer of a cored hull would be: It's cored. Cored hulls frequently have problems. Buyer Beware.

While I have no proof to support it at the moment, common sense tells you that the larger a boat is, the more flex it will have in a seaway. The more flex it has, the more engineering it takes to make sure everything attached to the boat will flex along with the hull without breaking.

A cored hull on a ~30' or less boat wouldn't disturb me any where near as much as it would on a 60'+ boat...

The big question is: Who did the engineering? Who oversees the quality control? What actual testing was done on what prototypes? Or is my boat going to be the manufacturer's prototype and is he just going to sit back and wait from me to report back after something breaks?

Quite frankly, I think that the overwhelming majority of pleasure boat builders, to one degree or another, just take the attitude of: There it is on paper, it looks good, build it and let's keep our fingers crossed.

In today's world, (even from ten years ago), more corners are being cut and more fingers are being crossed. Not many pleasure boats get the engineering levels and attention that aircraft and land vehicles get. And government regulations on pleasure boats usually only pertain to EPA & IRS regulations. Even CG Safety Regulations fall more upon the user than the manufacturer.

And this all has pertained to the "large manufacturers", Bertram, Hatteras, Viking, and down through the Ocean Yachts, Carvers, & Bayliners. When you get to the really small manufactures, engineering & testing is more of a monkey see, monkey do, approach. While I try to think out all of my options and consequences in how I build things, I'm still just one of the monkeys and I do admit to an awful lot of finger crossing...

Back to the "Buyer Beware" comment...

Br,

Patrick

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Feb 1st, '09, 12:41

True Capt. My dad has always steered me away from cored hulls because of the flex issue. Maybe it is true, your parents get smarter as you get older. Not saying that you are old.....

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Feb 1st, '09, 12:57

Not saying that you are old.....

I'm now drawing Social Security, that's gotta' account for some kinda' indicator along those lines...

Old too soon -- Smart too late

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Feb 2nd, '09, 10:45

I'd take your "Crossed Fingered Wing Its'" over a majority of the engineers calculations anyday of the week.

Carl

Charlie · Post by **Charlie** » Feb 4th, '09, 09:14

From Jan 28th:

Bertram Yacht's Response- 630
Based on the information presently available and evaluations made to date by Bertram, the situation with the 630 is an isolated problem unique to that particular boat and does not represent a systemic problem in design or construction present on other 630 hulls.

Jiannina Castro
Marketing & Communications
Bertram Yacht

The owner has posted on other sites that Bertram has made good to his complete satisfaction.

Glen Snader · Post by **Glen Snader** » Feb 4th, '09, 10:27

I do fiberglass work both for Industry and boats. At the industral level it is engineering, engineering and engineering. I have to provide engineer stamped drawings before fabracation. Sometimes when doing so I find errors with the original design that they want me to meet. On the boat side it is touchy/feely. Is it smooth, feel good and look good. I have NEVER been asked "Was it engineered?"

That must be why the industry side pays better.

Glen

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Feb 4th, '09, 11:26

What else could Bertram say? Scares the hell out of me, but in today's corporate environment where lying seems to be a given, we should all be scared. Walter

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Feb 4th, '09, 11:40

The owner has posted on THT that he is satisfied with Bertram's response and plans on remaining a Bertram owner.

Charlie · Post by **Charlie** » Feb 4th, '09, 16:41

In that same thread on THT some says he is buying a Viking. Who knows for sure what is really going on with any of this? Except that 63B broke apart for no apparent reason.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Feb 4th, '09, 17:51

Charlie wrote:In that same thread on THT some says he is buying a Viking. Who knows for sure what is really going on with any of this? Except that 63B broke apart for no apparent reason.

I beg to differ, the reason is quite apparent...someone made a boo boo. A very big expensive one at that.

But your right, we have little real information to go on just 2nd, 3rd and 4th hand info.

Charlie · Post by **Charlie** » Feb 5th, '09, 21:22

I talked to Don Jones at the AC Boat Show today. He said the 63 owner has been upgraded to a new 70. In the mean time he is using a loaned 63. Don said the 63 has been repaired. I did not ask what they were going to do with her, probably a demo boat.
Word is Viking did loan him a 68 boat; but he gave it back. Sure times are tough for Bertram; but they jumped on this, made the deal and kept a good customer. Enough said.

JP Dalik · Post by **JP Dalik** » Feb 6th, '09, 10:54

Don told you that the 63 is repaired? Like floating and moving and fishing repaired? It went from this:

To repaired in 6 weeks? WOW

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Feb 6th, '09, 11:40

Wonder what his definition of repaired is.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Feb 6th, '09, 12:03

It went from this....... To repaired in 6 weeks? WOW

Cosmetically, maybe.... Will it last? Hmmm... Didn't you coin the phrase on this board: Time Will Tell?

I can only speak about Bertram's desire to please the customer from a single first hand experience. In '88 the 1971 B46 that I was running was sold to a new owner in Lauderdale. The boat was already a 4 owner boat, (purchased, sold, and re-purchaed again by the owner that I worked for), the new owner becoming the fifth. The survey highlighted a very blistered bottom that needed immediate repair and could have been a deal breaker, or at least a big discount of the asking price.

My employer, without loosing a nickle of the selling price because of the blistering, came out well because Bertram quickly stepped up to the plate, without any whining, and paid, in full, all of the repair and yard costs. The hull had come with no life time warranty, no extended warranty, no implied warranty beyond the new purchase stuff afforded to the original owner.

Bertram has had several owners, been through some rough times, (along with just about every other major boat builder), and has evolved in some design and technical changes that many of us don't particularly care for. But, the bottom line is that: Bertram is still one of the best production boats on the water... Only surpassed, by maybe Viking. (I'm leaving out the more custom semi-production builders such as Garlington.)

JP Dalik · Post by **JP Dalik** » Feb 6th, '09, 13:42

From my first hand experiences Bertram has always helped their owners. I think they work hard to stand behind their product.

The situation with this particular 630 may be a one off quality issue.

You are correct

Time will tell.........

Charlie · Post by **Charlie** » Feb 6th, '09, 19:51

It was about 12 noon and Don had no liquor on his breath. He said it was repaired. You want to argue pick up the phone and call him.

bertram31.com

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