Outboards on 31 Express??

jziegler · Post by **jziegler** » Jan 17th, '09, 14:49

What do you all think about putting twin 300 Suzikis 4-strokes on a 1962 31 Express. I have one on Swap & Sell for sale but am still considering options. Anyone have any pics of a 31 w/ outboards? Has it been done? Thanks. Joe

Buju · Post by **Buju** » Jan 17th, '09, 15:32

Say it aint so Joe...

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Jan 17th, '09, 16:22

I wouldn't do it for a variety of reasons, but for the costs of twin 300 Suzukis, a bracket, all the transom work you'd need, etc., you could a nice inboard repower and have $$ left over. My 2 cents.

randall · Post by **randall** » Jan 17th, '09, 17:22

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Jan 17th, '09, 18:58

I think someone is screwing with us. Seems this question comes up periodically.

Someone knows, and they just like to work everyone up...

Argh.

jziegler · Post by **jziegler** » Jan 17th, '09, 19:33

Not trying to mess with anyone. I did not mean to start trouble. I just read an article in Florida Sportsman showing advantages of new outboards on larger boats and thought I would pose the question. Has it ever been done?

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Jan 17th, '09, 19:35

I remember seeing a picture of an Express with twin outboards recently. I thought it was on this site. Walter

jziegler · Post by **jziegler** » Jan 17th, '09, 19:45

Hey, I just found one. Check it out. I've been pricing changing out to diesels and I keep arriving at around $50 to $60K. New Suzuki 300s are about $14000 ea. However, not sure what addl work required for reinforcing transom and making bracket etc. will cost. Also, I'm sure there is a weight distribution problem. From recent Florida Sportsman article, the new 4-strok Suzukis are double the fuel efficiency than diesels also?

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1989/No ... ted-States

I feel like I am asking a dumb question in physics class but experts always say there is no such thing as a dumb question.

Thanks. Joe

jziegler · Post by **jziegler** » Jan 17th, '09, 19:46

Woops. This isn't a bertram. Sorry. Still looking for picture. Joe

Whaler1777 · Post by **Whaler1777** » Jan 17th, '09, 19:51

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Jan 17th, '09, 20:05

Joe, No worries. It can be done. But it takes a bit of doin'!

Buju · Post by **Buju** » Jan 17th, '09, 20:29

Kip's 'Targeted Species' is the exception, not the norm. His center console conversion, lil tower, and outboards all work together to make a honestly asthetic and real good looking blue water vessel.
Put them big ol suzukis on the back of a express cruiser, and you'll end up with a whole different look. Maybe later on in the evening I'll do a quick photoshop job for Joe to see what she'd look like...
There are alotta guys who've done OB conversions on their B25's. At first I was dead set against all of it, but now, I can say that some of the sport convertables (open/moppie) and the c.c conversions (of course) look ok with em. And the performance, economy, etc are undeniable. But on flybridge or express models.. not so much. Allthough Capt.Bones B25 FB with a single OB is growing on me. I like that he's got a transom cutout, as opposed to a braket, looks much less ungainly on the FB boat.

JP Dalik · Post by **JP Dalik** » Jan 17th, '09, 21:49

B31 Express with Suzuki outboards. May work just fine, heavy front end balanced by a "holy crap there 4 strokes back end". At least targeted species is swinging E-Techs or at least 2-strokers, way lighter than 4 strokes (and yes this makes a difference)

Asthetics prove that this boat will be all yours for as long as you decide not to give it away. That's right put outboards on a stock non customized B31 and its yours forever. The only thing the cc conversions have going for them is a one off useable boat on a proven hull design that may be desirable to someone other than the builder of said useable boat.

If it works for you all the best but 4 strokes are heavy compared to 2 strokers and it still doesn't mean you can overlook all the things wrong with an older boat before the conversion to outboards can begin. My guess would be that having to do all the other stuff and adding 28K for engines is more than having to do all the other stuff and adding 2 running inboards.

Good Luck

Whaler1777 · Post by **Whaler1777** » Jan 17th, '09, 21:51

better off just getting some cummins recons

Harv · Post by **Harv** » Jan 17th, '09, 22:33

Whaler1777 wrote:better off just getting some cummins recons

Ya beat me to it.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Jan 17th, '09, 23:10

Without blinking an eye, you will be spending 60 even with the recons. Also depends on what you want to do your self. I got a great deal on new shafts, but by the time I am done, I bet its closer to $70. Hell new bolts and screws have cost me more than $500. Then throw in the well while I am here I might as well.... and you are up there in cost.

By the way, the I might as well will also apply to the outboards.

Whaler1777 · Post by **Whaler1777** » Jan 17th, '09, 23:53

Sure if youre paying someone else to do the work for you it can easily wind up costing you 60k plus..... You can get the 330's for around 16,500 per side! (You can get four bangers for around the 12-13k range) If you wanted to save some cash you can save it by getting a hold of some used transmissions instead of new, figure 2k each... Were talking under 40k with taxes If you are doing all the labor yourself there should be no reason for it to cost any more than 45k... What is the cost per side of the Zukes, the tab for making the transom capable of holding two 600#+ 4 strokes and the bracket to hang them on?
-John

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Jan 18th, '09, 02:23

25ft Bertram Express

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Jan 18th, '09, 09:01

Like I have said in the past......"It's amazing what you can do with an old boat and a hundred thousand dollars"

If you are doing this to save money, you better do your homework before getting started.

There ain't but one person here that you have to make happy and DAT BEZZZ YOU...

A friend of mine removed the I/O from a 20 Foot Bertram a lot of years ago and repowered with an OMC SeaDrive........He was very happy with the setup.........there is another guy on Fish River with a pair of Merc on a 25 Bertram....he loves it.

My experience is that projects ALWAYS cost, at the least, twice what you initially figure.........like Tony said just incidentals can amount to hundreds or even thousands of dollars.

Harry

randall · Post by **randall** » Jan 18th, '09, 10:09

its the esthetics that bother me. open boat ..no prob...anything else is butt ugly.

JK · Post by JK » Jan 18th, '09, 11:24

There is no way an OB powered 31 will handle as well as a 31 Bert with inboards. Hell, I noticed a night and difference when I repowered from 454's to 300hp Cummins due to the torque, larger props, etc. I can only imagine the OB's with high rpms and little props would be like taking 10 steps backwards.

Sure it can be done, but why?

--JK

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Jan 18th, '09, 11:30

Its going to make it hard to fish.

Harv · Post by **Harv** » Jan 18th, '09, 11:45

Brewster Minton wrote:Its going to make it hard to fish.

With outboards you will always have to work fish to the side of the boat. I learned the hard way during a tournament, by having a qualifying fish go under the side and cut off on either the prop or rudder. Always better to work off the stern. Can't do that with big outboards in the way.

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Jan 18th, '09, 12:47

I will play devils advocate.

I completely understand different strokes for different folks but I dont think this is being given a fair shake. Things have really changed with modern OBs and they do have advantages over diesel (dont laugh).

Grady, Contender, Pursuit, Intrepid, and 10 other top boat builder use large OBs with great success. Many of these companies use them with no other options. It is possible to fish without a problem and todays marktet is proof.

Less Maintaince with OB

Better fuel economy with todays outboards. You would be close to 2mpg at cruise with twin 250hps.

Engine life of 2000+ hours (average boater does 40 hours a year tops)

Much greater speeds (45+ mph) better cruise.

Less draft and beaching ability

Nothing under the boat or in the water 24/7

Easy to maintain and get service

Easy of changing out engines

I understand the cost but it would still be cheaper comparing new to new and used to used.

New engines with controls

40k for twin 250hp Outboards new with controls rigged. (5 year warranty)

You could get twin 250hp used with warranty rigged for 25k.

12k for bracket.

That would be it, everything else would need to be done for the inboard also. New diesels, shafts, rubbers, struts, shaft logs, mounts,....... It is alot more.

How many people put enough hours on their boat to see the benefits of diesel? If you were a hard core fisherman then I could see the benefit but not for the average boater. IF he was using the boat as a general family boat then it would make sense.

It may not look as good or ride as good in the sloppy stuff but that all depends on how you use it and your opinion.

I am only playing devils advocate.

I respect everyones opinion and know how tightnit you guys are but also wanted to introduce a fresh perspective. I would not trade my OB bertram for anything. But then again I am 27 years old and have a much different view.

Just my 2 cents.

randall · Post by **randall** » Jan 18th, '09, 13:40

i have nothing at all against outboards and like most here have owned a few. but taking one of the most classic inboard boats of all time and converting it into a butt ugly caracature of itself makes no sense to me when there is an unending supply of factory outboards available. again if you go the CC route and its just the hull your after...have at it. i think an express would be the worst candidate....not from usability ...i get that. just looks wrong.

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Jan 18th, '09, 13:57

Looks aside, it can be a better choice for most people. I would rather have function and usability over looks any day for a boat.

I completely understand the idea of keeping a classic a classic and putting outboard on a 31ft Bertram does go against that. I would never want to take an orginal Shelby Cobra and paint it purple and put a 4 cylinder into it.

But in this case, it can make alot of sense.

Whaler1777 · Post by **Whaler1777** » Jan 18th, '09, 15:17

Outboards make zero sense on a 31 in my opinion... On the 25 it looks and works just fine thats great, but if youre looking for an outboard boat in the 30+ foot range just start lookin at grady's dont bother tearing up a 31 you will never get the performance you want... 25k for a set of used 250's? No thanks warranty or not they were taken off a boat for a reason... Anyone on here want the ability to "beach" their 31' boat? 46kts in this boat? Just like Capt Pat said its no good, its just not made for it, people buy these boats for their ability to handle sloppy seas and to get them home in one piece I can almost promise you that everyone else here would agree with me on that, and how often are you going to need to change a diesel engine or even an outboard for that matter?? I'm only 25 and I also have a different mindset... Its like comparing apples to oranges, two totally different worlds....

kipp · Post by **kipp** » Jan 18th, '09, 16:10

Love the comments-pro and con. Most of you know how happy I am with "Targeted Species" Don't need to do the devil.s advocate thing. Would be happy to take any and all naysayers out fishing and let the boat do the talking. Our first trip out was the last Port Eads UVI. We didn't win but got our first blue, and have been banging 'em up since then.
Faithfully,
Kipp

jziegler · Post by **jziegler** » Jan 18th, '09, 16:29

Hi Kipp, Do you have any pics of reinforcing the transom and installing the engine bracket on Targeted Species - your boat looks great and I espicially like the pics at boat ramp. My 31 is on a trailer only 3 blocks from boat ramp. The transom reinforcement & bracket seems like the trickiest part of the process; am I correct and what did you do? Thanks everyone, I too like all the pros & cons. I just started the topic after not being able to sell my express, even though I would take $15K for it and I can't afford the 60 to 70K switch to diesels right now. Right next door to my business is a boat shop and I am good friends with the owner. He is a Suzuki dealer and will rig and install two 300 4-strokes for around $35K. The only cost I don't know is the bracket and transom reinforcement requirements and costs???
Thanks everyone. I love this site!!! Joe

Whaler1777 · Post by **Whaler1777** » Jan 18th, '09, 17:49

I dont understand it, what youre talking about doing is putting 1200lbs of dead weight at the back of a 31 foot bertram, remember you throw that bracket on the boat and youre adding 3' to the boat your props are 3 feet past the transom of the boat, think weight!!!!!!!! Kips boat is a big difference from an express. Kipp whats the weight of your cc? And just as important the weight of those beautiful light weight 2 stroke E-Tech's... Im trying my best to keep it civil but youre posting some pretty rediculous stuff here... What is making the idea that a pair of diesels are going to cost you 70k?? Myself and many other people on this site have mentioned and know of the cost of recon cummins max at 40k plus 2k for a pair of zf gears is what were talking here... And back to capt bones story about how an outboard is any kind of an advantage to any newer diesel engine on the market today? Are you kidding me? Ease of maintenance? Good luck getting any mechanic to look at those monster outboards anywhere out of the warranty period when youre 80 miles off and your computer fails are you just going to go back to the engine pull the cowl off and find the problem? Or maybe if the waterpump decides that youve sucked up too much sand backing off from those many times that youve beached that 10,000lb boat and shreds the impeller its gonna be a real bitch to pull that lower unit and "pop on" a new waterpump .. Outboards more econimical or anywhere close AT ALL to diesel? another durr, are you kidding me! as soon as you hit those throttles and youre turning over 5k rpm and im turning 2200rpm doing 28kts you take a look at fuel burn and tell me whos in the lead...... The day you do 46kts all 80 miles offshore to the canyons is the last day youre going to have a spine.

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Jan 18th, '09, 18:07

Hey Whaler.....keep it civil. You have been down that slippery slope before. Kipp's boat is an absolute dream machine and any express could be done the same with some sawsall work. Kipp came as close as one can to winning a UVI with his outboard B31. He and his crew are feared in the big money tourneys in the northern Gulf.

Proportions are a subtle thing and are what they are to the eye of the beholder. To my eye the B31 FB is the prettiest boat ever built from any angle. Kipps boat captures the perfect proportions from a slightly different perspective, but just as pretty.

Hey Kipp - I'm pretty much out and about again so gimme a call and let's me, you, Andre' & Mooney go have some lunch and tell lies.

UV

Whaler1777 · Post by **Whaler1777** » Jan 18th, '09, 18:19

Hey "Vic" First off I'm going to give you a heads up and let you know my name is John.... You might want to go back and read my last post a second time... I am being civil... Slippery slope??? Are you kidding?????? Kipps boat works mint and looks mint Did I say anywhere that it wasn't aesthetically pleasing???????????, IT IS NOT AN EXPRESS His boat has to weigh at least 2000lbs less than an express!!... The engines are LIGHT 2 stroke E-Techs Less weight than Zukes! Is there any criticism in saying that I dont know maybe im wrong here point it out!!????

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Jan 18th, '09, 18:36

To me, its has nothing to do with looks, its a matter of money. You can do a nice inboard gas repower and have some $$ left over for what'll cost for a pair of outboards and a bracket. I really, really like outboards--but you'll put alot of $$ into the boat. If you really want an outboard boat, I'd sell the B31 and get a nice outboard boats. Targeted Species looks great, and taking a B31 and making it CC is the only way I'd try to do an O/B.

I don't get the diesel repower for $40K. Outside of of the motors and gears, you're changing out exhausts, thru-hull intakes and lines for raw water, new shafts and wheels, new stuffing boxes or dripless, batteries and battery cabling, engine beds, and air for the motors to breathe. Add it up--it isn't cheap. And I'm sure I'm missing stuff.

In the end, do what you want. That's what I do. Deying convention can have some pretty great rewards if it works out.

jziegler · Post by **jziegler** » Jan 18th, '09, 19:08

Hi John F - Did you ever get those Cummins 210s on ebay a few weeks back?

Hi John (Whaler) - Thanks for your cons and forgive me if I got you worked up! I started the topic because I am just looking at all options - selling, repowering with gas inboards, repowering with diesels, and then I saw article about new outboards in Florida Sportsman AND I have a Suzuki dealer/friend right next door to my shop where I store my 31 Bertram. I had Bruce look at my boat and even with me doing a bunch of the work (which I never did before), he estimated a min of $60K to repower w/ 210 Cummins. I don't know what the total cost for changing to outboards would be and that is what I would like to find out to take into consideration with all the other pros & cons everyone is giving.

Thanks all for the lively discussion. Joe

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Jan 18th, '09, 19:37

Kipp

I would love to know some performance and fuel economy numbers as well as some more pictures. Especially of the rigging.

Jiegler

The express would be similar in ride and performance (if not better of a ride because of the weight) as Kipps rig. That is a great price for OBs.

John

A 300hp Suzuki is only about 85lbs heavier than a Evinrude Etech.

Outboards are easier to service and more people to do it especially if the dealer is the next door neighbor.

Not everyone takes their boat 80 miles offshore hense why outboards can be a good choice.

A diesel computer is just as likely to fail as an outboard engine computer.

No one said anything about backing off a sandbar??? Outboard waterpumps are pretty durable but running sand thru a system willl wipe out both of them quickly.

A bracket also provides floatation to help off set the weight of the outboards, depending on the size it can provide more buoyance than the weight of the outboard.

Kipps fuel economy numbers will speak for themselves. If it was turning 5k rpm it would be doing 40mph so you couldnt compare if to you do 2200 rpm at 28kts. But the outboard turning 28kts compared to your 28kts woulc be a very good comparison that would most likely give fuel economy to the OB at 3500. Plus gasoline is cheaper compared to diesel.

Outboards are a viable options for some people. I have made my points and they are valid.

No hard feelings.

Just my 2cents.

Whaler1777 · Post by **Whaler1777** » Jan 18th, '09, 19:38

Joe, you didnt get me worked up at all and I'm sorry it was all con's I just dont see any benefit in putting outboards on an express.. If you are not doing the work yourself yes it can cost you upwards of 60k I apologize I wasnt aware that you were going to have someone else do the majority of the job for you... Is your express "owl"? If so werent there cummins in that boat already?
-John

Whaler1777 · Post by **Whaler1777** » Jan 18th, '09, 19:54

Here we go... Theres no computer in the 6bta recons its a mechanical engine, the 4 strokes are a 100lb difference with a major powerhead and overall size difference... A computerized 4 stroke engine is not an easily serviced item unless you have mega bucks and someone who just got out of a certified tech school that trained them to work on those specific engines and even then theyre a bitch (Your engine shuts down 3 cylinders? Open the hood what are you going to look for? A new computer is what youre going to be looking for because for some reason that you will never be able to visualize it decided to crap out).. Youre talking about the ability of "beaching" the boat if it were equipped with outboards? Is there a new meaning for the word "beaching" that I am not aware of, If its the same beaching I'm thinking of how are you going to get that 10k lb boat off of that beach only viable option would be to back it off right? Its much easier to change a failed raw water pump that is pumping the seawater through a heat exchanger... Unless youre using the boat in freshwater also remember that there is no closed circuit cooling in outboards as of yet that means theres salt water flowing through your entire cooling system all outboards are made out of aluminum and salt water and aluminum dont mix forever, the bts's are cast iron... Youre gonna need a rediculously large bracket to provide 1200lbs of buoyancy and that 1200lbs of buoyancy is just going to drive your bow down further... Zero chance that an outboard turning 3500 is going to bring a stock bertram to 28 kts, its just not happening the extra $ that you shell out for the fillup is returned to you in the longevity of the diesel engine!! Outboards are a viable option yes but not on a stock Bertram 31!!!

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Jan 18th, '09, 20:40

Guys, guys, guys. Go easy. Harry and I said it, no matter which way you go on this, outboards or Diesels you are in this for 60 or better. I say better and others here will agree. The cheapest way out is to dropped in a new pair of big blocks.

But lets put that aside and lets look at targeted species. One hell of a nice looking boat. Ok so looks step back and understand why it works so well. Targeted Species is probably lighter than anything we run, so first step to success. The Express might be heavier but I am sure the center of gravity is different for an express than a FBC.

Next we all now the 31 at high speeds wants to burry the bow. Ok, now shift the weight aft and you over come this tendancy at high speeds.

So can it work without a lot of modification like Targeted Species, sure. How will a FBC handle probably not so good. How will an express handle, probably pretty decently maybe better than the original.

Now would I do it, no, I just don't like outboards hanging off the back when I am trying to fish. Target Species is different, he has a CC so he can fight a big fish going forward. Oh, maybe another advantage, but even the express does not have that advantage.

So think about how it might really work, forget what it does to the looks of boat, and now its up to the owner to decide how much he wants to put into his project.

Joe, good luck with the project but before you start, make sure you weigh out all of your options and what ever cost you estimate, up it by 30% at a minimum.

John (Whaler) I know what a pair of Cummins 270 remans cost (don't forget the sales tax) with new transmissions. You are right at 40 before you even think about dropping them in. Go 330 and you add 6 grand a side. Now you have to redo the engine beds, probably the bulkhead behind the engines, glass in the shaft logs, etc, etc, etc. Maybe even a new deck. Lets, see I see that at an easy 20. Oh I forgot the hydrolic steering. Did you say you can do this for 40? That's not to say the same work doesn't have to be done on an outboard conversion. Still need glass work etc. So either way, if you walk away for 60 consider yourself lucky.

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Jan 18th, '09, 21:23

I passed on the Cummins 210s. I ran the numbers with a very reputable Cummins dealer, and we started going through gearsr, shafts, wheels, thru-hulls, exhaust--not worth it to me....but that's me. I got my rear deck out though and am redoing alot of stuff and getting a new tank. My winter project.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Jan 18th, '09, 21:34

Ok, Guys,

I've been sittin' in the lurker's chair and waiting for someone, maybe Kipp to explain why his CC B31 works and the Express won't.

Weight distribution. Not just the difference between one type of engine vs another, but major fore and aft distribution.

One key to Kipp's configuration was in moving the fuel tankage forward drastically.

The B31 hull, any configuration, balances fore and aft at the original placement of the inboard engines. Installing a pair of outboards isn't just hanging more weight off the transom. The inboards are coming out, so that weight is disappearing. The fuel tank, in Joe's case, is still aft of the original engines. 173 gal or so plus the fiberglass tank weight, (oh yeah... The ethanol issue...), for a combined weight, topped off, of around 1,600 lbs.

Now reinforce the transom & add brackets, will add about another 150 lbs minimum. You've removed roughly 2,000 lbs from amidships, added roughly 1,300 lbs to the transom, and with the fuel in the original location, the boat won't be able to get it's butt out of the water & onto much of a plane.

So, what used to be the engine space, now has to be occupied by fuel tankage, the step down companionway is in the way of just sliding the tank forward, so that's gotta' be raised. Now there a head room clearance problem wt the cabin door.

The helm in the Express is over the stbd engine box. Whata' ya' do there? Keep the engine boxes and fill the space vertically with sister tanks? Keep the companion way low? Sounds like new tanks & configuration...

Kipp's B31, if I remember correctly was purchased as a burned out hull in the cabin/bridge area. OK, he lopped off everything above the shear line to make an open boat. No mre head room into cabin problem. He pulled up all of the decking and reinstalled a single level deck, similar the Bahia Mar configuration. That increased the net height over the bilge all the way forward. More room for tankage further forward.

Notice where Kipp's CC is located fore and aft. It's setting inside of the original cabin space.

Kipp had to do a lot off modifications, spatially, to achieve the proper balance. Easier for him: Nothing was in the way on a burned out boat... Kipp did a hellofa lot of homework to balance out "Targeted Species" and he put a significant amount of money into the build to make it right.

My point is: There is a vastly greater task at hand on the stock Express than just beefing the transom, yanking the inboards, and strapping on a pair of outboards...

Unless the B31 is reconfigured to an open fisherman, hanging outboards on any of the models, save maybe the Bahia Mar is folly... I have seen a few stock B31s with outboards and they were truly dogs.

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Jan 18th, '09, 23:08

Joe
In what shape is your Express now? What engines are in it and does it run? Why do you want to remove the inboards........You have probably already explained but if you have, I just missed it.

Harry

Harv · Post by **Harv** » Jan 18th, '09, 23:17

CaptPatrick wrote: Unless the B31 is reconfigured to an open fisherman, hanging outboards on any of the models, save maybe the Bahia Mar is folly... I have seen a few stock B31s with outboards and they were truly dogs.

Bahia Mar? HMMMMMMMMMMM!!
Now you're putting ideas into my head.
Oh, never mind.
I don't want to fish over big outboards on the transom.

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Jan 19th, '09, 01:54

My last and final thoughts on the topic.

I agree that it is not as simple as throwing some OB's on a bracket, but the amount of work/money (as others have stated) required to install diesels would be much greater. Due to the fact that it is not done correctly often (conversion to OBs) gives it the bad rep that it would be very difficult to do. The unknown of the conversion is what is troubling to alot of people.

I do feel that it can be done and can also be done well. I have seen two 33ft Bertram with OBs (one with OMC seadrives and one with twin 250 Yamaha EFIs) that had no buoyance problems.

As stated by others, the best financial decision would be to simply install gas inboards and be done with it. I think that if money was no object and used mostly offshore that diesels would be the only choice. I just dont see the vast majority of people running their boats enough or going offshore enough to justify the different in price to upgrade to the diesels. The cost saving of going to OB plus the benefits does make them a viable option.

I understand the shift in center of buoyance of the boat. In the case of installing OB we would need to get the center further forward. The weight removal of the iron at the COB will shift the weight characteristics of the hull. The floatation of a large bracket will also add to this and will easily compensated for the engine on the bracket. Depending on the size of the bracket you can adjust the balance of the entire hull. The largest variable would be the size and shape of the bracket. This factor will determine the new COB of the boat.

http://elgersmad.homestead.com/files/Ti ... yancy.html

A bracket that displaced 25 cubic feet of water will have the buoyance force of 1600lbs which will easily compensate for the weight of the engines, bracket and reinforcement.

I do agree that the fuel tanks would need to be moved but they could easily be adjust to balance the boat how you would wanted. The open floor plan under the deck will allow for you to do what ever you wanted. By moving the batteries, fuel and depending on the amount of the floatation that the bracket will provide you can move the center of buoyance of the hull. Since the orginal position of the fuel tank is aft of the engines, you do have room to move it forward. If it was forward of COB, I would agree that you could not get the weight far enough forward but this is not the case.

I feel that the additional weight of the Express will actually help vs an open boat because of the needed weight forward from the top cap.

The ability to trim the angle of thrust of the outboard and will also allow you to raise the bow up while running. I think there are simply too many variables to determine how the boat will sit and run without the boat being in the water. It would be best to add the bracket and outboards then float the boat and move weight around to determine the best balance. Is it is possible to get the balance correct absolutely.

http://www.suzukimarine.com/sr_09/df300/features/

Suzuki 300hp 30inch weighs in at 615

http://www.evinrude.com/en-US/

Evinrude 300hp 30inch weighs in at 534

The Suzuki is only 81lbs heavier and they are almost identical in size. Modern engines be it gas/diesel are all going to be ECM controled and there is nothing wrong with that. It does not guarantee issues.

I was simply playing devils advocate here. I think it can be done and done nicely with proper planning.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jan 19th, '09, 08:13

I started writing some pros and cons, but most of them have already been listed and as to looks it's your boat so it really only matters to you...except when you go to sell it.

If it runs great few will look at it because it's not the "classic"

If it runs like a dog then those few that will look at it won't want it.

If you ripped the OBs' off and sold them as used what would you get for them? If you told people they where pushing a 31 Bertram would you be able to sell them?

What would you get for a 31 with an OB bracket on it, moved tank etc.

Rebuilt gassers, cheap way to get boat in water and usable with some resale value

Diesels, expensive up front but they are a selling point and you will get some return on the money put into it.

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Jan 19th, '09, 09:13

The transom is very thin on the B31, because it does not have to support anything as designed. You will have to do major build up to it to hang a bracket on it. To complicate matters it also has a slight curve to the transom. I think this complication will add considerably to the price. Anything is possible if you throw enough money at it. Aesthetics, which are a personal matter aside, it is not as simple as it may seem at first glance.

DRIFTER31 · Post by **DRIFTER31** » Jan 19th, '09, 09:38

One thing......Until you have them you dont know the inherent problems.Ex: When Large seas do come directly from the stearn they seem to often make their way up the outboard over the cover gasket a little before the boat starts to lift which creates corrosion inside the cover. That also happened while backing down steep ramps with a 26Proline and 130hp Hondas i had. Also when in real big seas when you cant run fast those small props wont perform like the inboards.{not as much power with a small wheel at slow speeds in a big sea doesnt work for me}

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Jan 19th, '09, 15:00

Diesels-keep your tank. Gassers OR outboards, replace tank, often means replacing deck. Outboards- hull glass work besides transom, bracket, etc-intakes, shaft and rudder logs have to be glassed in and done well. Outboards-new steering system? The Bertram 31, gas or diesels is the best boat I have ever run in a following sea. I have no idea how it would perform with outboards. I don't think Kip's boat would be a good example to compare with in this case as the modifications he has made far exceed what can be done on an Express Cruiser. Lastly, if this is all being done to save money, my bet is it will meet or exceed the cost of repowering with inboards-Gas or diesel...AND your performance and resale potentials fall into the unknown. My 2 cents. Walter

kipp · Post by **kipp** » Jan 20th, '09, 12:28

Fellas,
I have had an absolute blast reading and learning from ALL of your pros and cons on outboard power on a B31. I am Kipps son Richard Creed and I run the boat Targeted Species for Kipp (he is my go to angler)
Now I do not want to get into any debates or argue or any of that just wanted to throw my two cents in there since alot already have.
First of all our boat is an old flybridge cruiser and everything from bridge down is gone, just the cuddy cabin remains, we spent over a year with professional help rebuilding the transom so it would be strong enough to hold 3 outboards (literally that strong).....knowing they were weak from the start. We placed the ceneter console right where the bridge would have been trying to keep weight distrabution even and the dropped 130 gallon sat tank just forward of the CC to keep the bow down and keep that original B31 ride. Make no mistake fellas I have run her in HONEST 8-10 footers and she never got squirrelly at all, been caught in a cold front on one engine for 13 hours 6-8 footers just feet apart, not one wave over the bow...ever! I ran charters out of venice for close to 8 years running everything to big Twin vees, 40 foot Pacemakers, Hatts, 38 Bertram even a deisel powered 31 and Targeted Species runs as strong if not even stronger than any of em....I guarantee
She does not ride bow proud and sits in the water when at drift perfectly.....maybe we lucked out on the weight distrubution, either way it is almost perfect
As far as fuel burn...I can run TS at 4400 rpms and be running 28 knots burning right at a mile per gallon........back it of to 4000 and 25 knots and she is quite economical even though we usually run her a little hard
Trolling is where the deisel boats whop us on fuel burn.....I work on 54 Hatterass full time as a mate and have worked on dozens of others and I know that when you go slow in a deisel boat you can troll forever burning barely anything......its a catch 22 for us. After the recent work that Kipp has been doing for over a year we will hold 460 gallons of fuel and we could run to Isla Mujeres if we wanted to...
TS weighs just under 10,000 dry and round 12,000 with fuel
As far as the fishing goes.....she fishes like a dream....we caught two blue marlin the second trip we took on her and it just gets better. She actually backs down pretty good with the E Tecs but since she is a CC I just turn and parrallel the fish and get em to leader of the side....this way I can chase my bigger fish in forward (boats were made to go forward so why not fight fish that way)
Would love to bring any of you guys fishing on her.....we are always looking for crew so just give me or Kipp a shout (225-2680913)
As far as price goes, Kipp takes care of that I just find the fish......but I know that it was NOT cheap.....but very doable if you are dedicated
One more thing...we choose the E tecs because they are two strokes and we wanted that extra power and tourqe for a heavy hul......I would not change a thing except maybe slap the 300s on one day in the future......Kipp???
hope everybody has a great 09 season.....UV when we going buddy? you can drive I will work the pit!!
Tight Lines
Creed

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Jan 20th, '09, 12:40

Richard,

Now that's the reponse from the TS Team that I was lookin' for! Thanks!!

Br,

Patrick

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Jul 20th, '09, 10:14

Good discussion on THT about this topic. I came across these pictures.

bertram31.com

Outboards on 31 Express??

Outboards on 31 Express??

Targeted Species

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