Help - Battery Melt Down

PaulJ · Post by **PaulJ** » Dec 1st, '08, 08:40

It's been a while since I have posted. Hoping to get some help from this forum.

I have a B28 with 350 Gassers. Had a near catastrophy this weekend. I was running in ICW at 3200 rpms for 2 hours with no issues. Without warning, my stbd engine lost ~1000 rpms for about 2 secs and then shut down. All gauges shut off. All electronics (GPS, radio, depth sounder) shut off. All electronics run off of stbd battery. Tried to re-start, but no electrical on stbd side. As I was almost back to dock, I came in on port engine.

Opened engine cover and batter cover. Positive (+) terminal on stbd battery had melted... lead everywhere. Removed battery and purchased new one. Discussion with battery guy caused both of us to assume loose connection on + terminal caused arcing and over heating melt down. Installed new battery.

Power restored to bridge electronics. Turned on ignition... gauges all have power. Hit starter button... starter drags for 1 sec followed by complete melt-down of + post and fire... melted through to battery core. No damage to boat... but out $100 on new battery.

Assumed polarity cross-over and investigated for chaffed or loose wires. Traced + lead to starter to find starter and wiring all covered in oil. Opend up entire bilge area to find rear end of stbd engine and transmission covered in oil. Oil standing 2-3 inches in bilge. Pulled stbd dip stick... dry. I have inspected high-pressure oil lines, but do not see a rupture.

Questions:
1) Could massive amounts of oil on the + post of the starter cause polarity crossover to ground?
2) Would polarity crossover cause the sudden shutdown and loss of electrical power on bridge?
3) Where could the oil have come from? I assume one of the high pressure lines has a leak, but have not tried to restart to check.
4) Could I have damaged engine?

Skipper Dick · Post by **Skipper Dick** » Dec 1st, '08, 09:12

PaulJ

Wow, what a state of affairs. No one needs that kind of excitement out on the water or even at the dock for that matter.

If you didn't blow a rod through the oil pan then there is a possibility that an oil line to or from a remote oil filter ruptured or the filter itself corroded enough to rupture. Both of these have happened to me on an old military boat. Do you have one of the modern engines that shut down if the oil pressure drops? Did you hear a warning horn? The sudden drop to 1000 RPM and then to 0 may have been the engine seizing from lack of lubrication.

I almost sounds like something shorted out either at the starter solenoid or on the engine. I've never seen oil cause a short, but I would imagine that it is conductive and could do just that.

I'd check the starter circuit from the battery on. If you can find out where a short may have occurred you'll probably find where some heat or arcing occurred.

When you get the short circuit solved and find out where the oil came from and corrected, then put some oil in the engine and keep your fingers crossed.

Iâ€™d consider isolating both engines and having a separate battery for the house.

Good luck
Dick

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Dec 1st, '08, 10:01

First and foremost, you have to clean up the oil from your bilge. With all that down there, you're never going to figure out where it came from. Once cleaned, I'd line the area with newspapers , paper towels or brown wrapping paper. Since you don't see an obvious break in your lines, add a quart of oil into your engine. Inspect the bilge. If your pan is broken or rotted out, it will run right out. If everything stays oil free and there's no oil to "short" you out, add more oil to your engine, connect a battery, and just try turning her over. If she turns over, you probably have not damaged your engine. Now's the time to check out all the electrical aspects of your engine before trying to run it. Are your points functional or melted together, etc. You obviously don't have a subtle problem if you can blow positive poles in a minute. Pull your alternater and have it's output checked out. Got a separate voltage regulater? The alternater shop should be able to check that out. If all checks out well and your engine starts, look for a spray of oil from your high pressure oil lines. Pin hole?, chafed area?, connection? It should show up quickly on your paper liner.
I really don't know if oil is a conducter, but in the volume you describe, it sure could be especially if there was any water in your bilge. Keep us informed on your progress and good luck. Walter

PaulJ · Post by **PaulJ** » Dec 1st, '08, 10:15

Walter/Dick,
Thanks for replies. I spent most of Sunday cleaning the bilge. Did the eco friendly thing by using my oil-changing pump and pumped the oily water mix into buckets and disposed at automotive store. Used bilge cleaner and oil drop rags to clean up most of the mess. Storm on Sunday afternoon had me stop any more work. Will resume this weekend.

With oil spray all over the rear bulkhead, covering the starter, transmission, stringers, etc... seams like an oil line failure rather than oil pan.

Discussed with automotive store "guy". He says they test starters so covered in gunk they are shorting out themselves.

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Dec 1st, '08, 10:38

Sounds like a dead short in the starter/solenoid and its sticking in the "engaged" position, or a chafed spot in the + cables that is getting to dead ground.

UV

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Dec 1st, '08, 11:28

Get a multimeter with audible continuity check and look for a dead short in the starter circuit as UV says. Pull the battery cable from the starter and see if you are still shorted to ground. If so remove the starter and continuity test it on the bench. if it is shorted take it for rebuild. if that is not it, then check further in the wiring. That had to be a short through one of the large battery cables, or it would have melted the shorted wire before it melted the battery!! Check your oil cooler and oil lines for leaks. Also check the oil filter. They can get pinholes rusted in them too.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 1st, '08, 11:41

I would think its gotta be a dead short.

Time to whip out the powermeter and start looking at leads from battery to solenoid to starter.

Oil line may have ruptured. Maybe an oil cooler line... could have ruptured and sprayed oil all around and shorting something out...

or

battery cable got so hot it melted an oil line, lost oil pressure causing engine to slow down... then battery meltdown shuts motor down completely.

I would expect to see some big tell-tale signs. Just be real careful about fire and battery acid, take all precautions there. Clean bilge real well if acid was in there, can't be good for fiberglass and wood ect.

PaulJ · Post by **PaulJ** » Dec 1st, '08, 13:49

Thanks all. I will follow all advice. I have a new/spare starter in a box. I will run testing on all cables to check for cross over. I will try the oil pan drip test with small amount of oil. If no leak from bottom of engine, then it must be oil line. Oil filter is on top-mount in front of engine. I checked that to make sure the filter hadn't come off. It was dry and top of engine was dry. All of the oil coating was behind block on bell housing, starter, tranny, rear mounts and rear bulkhead. Drip line of oil from under bell housing... no oil forward of bell housing or directly underneath block.

Skipper Dick · Post by **Skipper Dick** » Dec 1st, '08, 14:25

I had a leak once from the oil sender unit that was mounted on the back of the block and it leaked down over the bell housing. This one had rusted to the point that it was doing a pretty good leak.

Dick

Hookshurt · Post by **Hookshurt** » Dec 1st, '08, 17:15

I have 350 gassers in my 28. We never melted a battery, but the primaries from the battery to the starter and to the DC distribution points were undersized and had corroded connections to the point that the battery and cables were too hot to touch when starting and running. Replaced cables and connectors and problem solved.

White Bear · Post by **White Bear** » Dec 2nd, '08, 07:44

Don't wish to rain on the parade, but I am more concerned about the loss of rpm and engine shut down than I am the electrical problem. The electrics are a separate system and should be relatively easy to track down once the oil mess is resolved. However, with such a massive loss of oil from the lubricating system, there is a real possibility of serious damage to the engine. When the new battery was installed and the starter struggled for a short while before the second meltdown - was the engine turning over? My first check would be to put a breaker bar on the engine to see if it rotates easily. If not, you are probably looking at an engine rebuild and might just as well pull the engine at the outset as that will also make it easier to find the causes of both the electrical and oil problems. Not trying to be negative, just realistic. Good luck as it was an awful way to end a season.

PaulJ · Post by **PaulJ** » Dec 2nd, '08, 08:53

I too am concerned about the engine shut down more than the electrical problem. After replacing the battery, I did the following... 1) Turned on stbd battery switch; 2) checked for any problems at battery connection; 3) turned on power to bridge electronics - power on good; 4) place engine switch in "on" position; 5) All gauges for stbd engines came on and showed ~13amps on dash volt meter; 6) pressed starter switch and starter began to turn with "grrrrer-rrr" followed by loss of all electrical power on bridge with gauges going dead; 7) looked down from bridge into stbd engine compartment to see battery on fire; 8) lost ~1 year of my life and increased heart rate to maximum; 9) put fire out; 10) removed battery.

I will try to hand crank engine and will see if I can get it to turn over one revolution by hand. I think I'll go as far as removing the valve covers and checking valve action and push rods for any damage. Also plan to remove the oil filter and see if there's any oil in there.

Note that I was attentive to gauges as always and at the time of shutdown, engine temp was 165-170.. in spec. Engine reaction at shutdown was 3200 RPMs... no sign of trouble. Went to increase RPMs and had no reaction on tach. Then engine dropped to ~2000 RPMs and ran there for about 2 secs. Engine then went to idle ~600 RPMs for about 1 sec and then shut down. All gauges went to 0 - off.

randall · Post by **randall** » Dec 2nd, '08, 09:21

pull a few plugs and see if there is any liquid in the cylinders....

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 2nd, '08, 09:29

White Bear you make a valid point. And checking to see if the engine can be manually turned over makes lots of sence and cost about Zero and takes very little time.

On the flip side if the engine siezed I cannot see how it would have caused a battery meltdown. Unless it was overheated to a point it melted the battery cables. But that did not seem to be the case. True now it can be the problem but he was underway when it first happened and was not cranking as he lost all power...unless that was not he case.

I could be wrong but on some of the newer engines, with a loss of oil pressure the engine is slowed down or shut down. I am hoping that is the case.

Engines don't turn over all that easy, at least ones with good compression. Consider removing the plugs. Also if you are a moron, like me, it may be beneficial to label the wires before removing.

PaulJ · Post by **PaulJ** » Dec 2nd, '08, 09:38

Sim.. Good advice on removing plugs first. I can check all cylendars for liquid that way and hand cranking will definately be easier. Last fall I did a valve job on port engine. When I went to adjust valves, used my torque wrench on front pully... with plugs in! Couldn't hardly make it turn. Removed plugs and repeated... did the trick.

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Dec 2nd, '08, 13:41

I'd just put a breaker bar on the engine--plugs in and all--and see if it'll turn. You'll be able to tell if its seized or not.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 2nd, '08, 14:24

John F. wrote:I'd just put a breaker bar on the engine--plugs in and all--and see if it'll turn. You'll be able to tell if its seized or not.

Yeah, if you are familiar with engines and know how much force it takes to make it turn over thats fine. I was afraid he'd put a breaker bar on the motor push on it a bit and think it was frozen. As Paul just did a valve job...I realize now that he is a bit more mechanically inclined.

PaulJ · Post by **PaulJ** » Dec 2nd, '08, 14:33

Sim.. Not my first rodeo! Replaced blown head gasket once in bahamas (try 1982)... had to have parts and torque wrench flown in by sea plane. That was a fun one. Done everything but rebuild lower end myself. I must admit though... I more of a parts replacer than a mechanic. I follow directions (have all manuals on my GM 350 Mercs) and ask lots of questions from others.

If things look bleek after I work on it Friday, I'll do a shout out to Bruce to see where to go from here. Boat is in Ft. Pierce.. just up the road from him.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 2nd, '08, 18:05

PaulJ, same thing here. I have learned alot thru the years but would not consider myself a mechanic by any means, a good grease monkey at best.

A head gasket in the Bahamas, don't sound like fun. I changed my propshaft in the water. Think that was my highlight. Always wanted to do that since I saw it done on a yacht going south. They called me as they where coming in on one engine, they placed order for a new one and asked me to drop off at marina. When I got there the diver came up with the old one, I helped tie off the new and he installed. Thought it was the coolest thing.

PaulJ · Post by **PaulJ** » Dec 2nd, '08, 19:29

Sim.. 4 years ago a broke my port tiller arm off doing a hard turn coming back through Sebastian Inlet. Made the 25 mile run back to dock on one rudder. Bought new tiller arms from Capt Pat and he advised on how to drop the rudders and replace while boat was in the water... while I'm sure it can be done if all things go right, it seemed a bit dicey to me to purposefully open up 1" holes in my boat while in the water. Talked my local hoist guy to pull me out of the water at closing time and leave me hanging in the hoist so I could do it over night and avoid haul-out charge and put me back in before "management" showed up. Long story made short... Rudder was jammed hard after I got it dropped about 2" due to years of corrosion. Had to block up boat for 3 days, pay for hoist and yard time, while I drove it out with a sledge hammer and rod. Mushrommed the top of the post.. good thing the top of the posts are 1" and shaft is 1-1/4". Had to machine the rudder posts back to round and honed out the port. Can't image doing that with the boat in the water!

DRIFTER31 · Post by **DRIFTER31** » Dec 2nd, '08, 19:32

Gotta say it.......The electrical problem needs to be FIRST before you dont have a boat. If you let go of the key switch and the cable still melted you could end up with one big ass fire. If thats the case the starter needs to be taken off and checked foe excessive amp draw. Vic is right here. The solonoid is probably full of oil or stuck.

PaulJ · Post by **PaulJ** » Dec 5th, '08, 16:08

Went down to run checks as advised. Stbd engine seized. All oil blew out while running. Time to repower.... at least the stbd side. Both engines have over 1300 hrs and are 1986 vintage.

Port Engine: Did a valve job on the port engine last year... it runs great. All new risers, gaskets on the top side, replaced distributor, coil, wires, plugs, belts, hoses, etc. Had intake manifold and exhaust manifolds cleaned and surfaced... painted. Even bought all new manifold bolts. Removed exchanger and had it refurbished... looks like new. Installed new starter.

Strbd Engine: Haven't had any problem whatsoever. Only thing I have done is oil changes every 50 hrs and tune-up/fuel filter every season. Now it's dead.

Would like advice on repower with FWC 350 for B28. Any suggestions on what engines to get and where to get them would be appreciated. I do not want to have to rewire the boat and would like to reuse my harness. Open to rebuilds if anyone knows where to go. Also, don't know if I should just do the Stbd or Both??? Comments???

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Dec 5th, '08, 17:03

Did you ever figure out what melted your batteries? Walter

PaulJ · Post by **PaulJ** » Dec 6th, '08, 06:46

Walter... I did not try to get that sorted out other than checking the main battery cables + and - and found no chafing or short. Starter is main suspect as it has corrosion on selonoid and housing. All oil hoses examined, cleaned and no hole or disconnection found.

I put a torque wrench on the main pully and did nothing but tighten the bolt. Got up to 50 lbs before I stopped. Put same wrench on port engine and could get it to crank the cam in either direction without much force. Also checked oil level, best I could... bone dry. I suspect I either punched a rod through the oil pan or the pan or gasket gave way. Regardless, the oil dumped out during 3200 rpm run and seized. I also suspect the massive amount of oil that was over and in the starter had some rust/metal particles in it causing dead short when I hit the starter button.

Spent Friday cleaining the sludge out of the bilge. Ended up buying dozens of drip cloth and just got down in the bilge from stem to stern scrubbing and mopping the mess up. Filled a 30 gal trash can with the nasty stuff.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 6th, '08, 07:40

PaulJ, sorry to hear that. Not the outcome we where hoping for.

Carl

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Dec 6th, '08, 08:08

Paul that is tough, I look forward to reading how you decide to go forward with the repower. Good luck.

GerardA · Post by **GerardA** » Dec 6th, '08, 23:39

Hi Paul,
Sorry about your misfortune.
Do you know what was the cause of the oil loss?
For replacement engines go to www.1800runsnew.com.
They have new 5.7 350 cid 325 HP engines that would be drop ins.
The LH is 4K & the RH is 5K.
With all the work done recently to the port engine, as long as the compression is good, & it currently runs well, I would run it till it gave me trouble.
If you can figure out what caused your oil loss, I would replace that component on the port engine & run it.
If diesels are down the road, I would go with a reman for the Stbd, otherwise I would go new.
Good luck
Gerard

Charlie J · Post by **Charlie J** » Dec 7th, '08, 05:26

paul
thats a tough nut, sorry to here that, my guess would be a hole in the oil pan due to rust, as for the batt melt down some how the starter got stuck in the engage mode and caused the melt down.

PaulJ · Post by **PaulJ** » Dec 7th, '08, 06:13

Gerard... Thanks for the 1800runsnew site. I'll call then next week and see what application they have that might work.

CWJ... I'm going to work the boat next weekend and start breaking it down to see exactly what the cause was for oil loss and starter/battery problem. The amp draw only occurs when starter is engaged, not with ignition on and battery hooked up. I suspect that the oil that blew out caused some rust particles to seap down inside the starter and when I hit the start button I have the cross over.

Cracker Boys boat works is about 2 miles from where I have the boat on a lift. I talked with the yard and they can haul me out, pull the old motor and drop in new one for ~$400 + yard fees. He reccommended I get the replacement motor(s) drop shipped and tear down the stbd motor as far as I could before I bring the boat over. Said if the new engine(s) are ready to drop in, I could spend a day or two in the open bilge cleaning/painting/fixing anything while open and then drop in new motor(s). Might take a week.

randall · Post by **randall** » Dec 7th, '08, 09:42

paul...that seems like a real ,real, good price. a local yard charged me more than that to use their fork lift to take out my own engine and replace.....other than the actual lifting i did everything else myself.....11 minuites out....26 back in..............and a short story from the yard owner about how much the forklift cost.....wouldnt let me use a friends front end loader...........well i guess they have to make a living too.

bertram31.com

Help - Battery Melt Down

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