Sinking Bertram 28(?) Rescued

[Sean B]

I'm pretty sure this is a B28.

This is actually the second time one of NASA's booster rocket recovery ships out of Port Canaveral have gone out of their way to help a private boater in distress in my area.

Hope I never need them... but if I ever have a boat (or a rocket) in trouble on the water, I hope these guys are near.



May 23, 2008

Booster recovery ship rescues anglers

Liberty Star earns second save this year

BY PATRICK PETERSON
FLORIDA TODAY

The Liberty Star, one of NASA's two solid rocket booster recovery ships, came to the aid of a sinking fishing boat Thursday, saving four fishermen from a deep-water swim.

It was the second rescue this spring. Several months ago, the Liberty Star assisted fishermen off Sebastian Inlet.

"I hope we're in the habit of being in the right place at the right time," said Joe Chaput, 46, manager of marine operations for United Space Alliance, which runs the vessels for NASA. In his 23 years with USA, Chaput can recall at least a dozen rescues.

"We'll always help," he said.

The 176-foot ship was training for the upcoming May 31 launch of Discovery when it received a distress call from a 28-foot sportfisher, the Sunchaser. The ship had radioed for help from 24 miles southeast of Port Canaveral about 11 a.m.

The Liberty Star headed for Sunchaser, which was just three miles away, said a USA spokesman. The fishing boat was taking on water and sitting low.

"We were able to launch a small boat with a pump and pump the water out," Chaput said.

Several of the 10 USA divers aboard went under water to search for holes in the fishing boat. Apparently, the water was coming from scuppers, or exhaust inlets in the stern.

Once the water was pumped out, the fishing boat was able to start its twin, 170-horsepower diesel engines.

"It was able to limp back into shore," Chaput said. "All we did was escort them back."

On the return to port, the Coast Guard relieved the Liberty Star and escorted the fishing boat home.

[Eddy G]

With the scuppers beneath the surface, I bet it was taking on water pretty fast. Those deck hatches don't stop much water once it's in the cockpit. Lucky for them, the raised engine box on the 28 kept the water from flooding out the cabin. Nice boat evidently with 170 Yanmars. Would have been a shame for it and those senior fishermen to have gone down.

Eddy G.

[Rawleigh]

Sound like handy people to have around in an emergency!!! Rags or shirts stuffed in the scuppers can do pretty good job of slowing the watter to a manageable flow.

[jspiezio]

Sound like handy people to have around in an emergency!!! Rags or shirts stuffed in the scuppers can do pretty good job of slowing the watter to a manageable flow.

I was thinking he same Rawliegh. I wonder why she was laying so low in the water to begin with.

[mike ohlstein]

1. Never shut the engines off untill back at the dock.
2. Three bilge pumps.
3. High water alarm.
4. Limber holes.
5. Did I mention.....three bilge pumps?
6. Crash valves.
7. All pumps must pump overboard.
8. Three bilge pumps.

[Rawleigh]

And a younger crew who have some idea of what to do if water comes in!!

[ScottD]

Mike, do you leave you engines running when anchored up? I can see that as pretty good security, but I gotta say that would suck for me. Back a few years ago I would go diving with a buddy and leave the boat empty,(I know, stupid) until we misjudged the current and popped up about 300 yards away down current, swin back nearly killed me. That cured me of that trick, but I do still shut down the engines when bottom fishing. I guess the
cure for that is a sunken or near sunken boat. Hope I don't get that cure.

ScottD

[mike ohlstein]

I start them in the morning and shut down in the evening. The only time that I shut down while at sea is while tied up over night, and never until after starting the generator.

Paranoid? Perhaps.

[Preston Burrows]

Think this photo was taken as the rescuers were getting the crew off the boat and then the rescuers boarded and pumped out with just the Captain [blue tee shirt on the flybridge] on board?

They must have had the scuppers/exhausts plugged and/or been low on fuel to manage saving the boat at the point of its 'immersion' this photo shows - B28's bilges typically 'fill' from the bow to stern - to see a B28 this low in the stern and 3 men 'casually' standing/sitting at the transom puzzles me...................

[Bruce]

I suspect given the bow proud attitude and the ability to start those 170 Yanmars this low in the water, that the aft compartment, tank area, filled with water and the limber holes are clogged or got glassed over.

I've also seen some 28's that had sealed bulheads between aft and engine compartment.

Heavy on fuel, people and gear plus the step up to the engines both hindered and saved the thing.

It doesn't take much of a full load to put the scuppers under.

[randall]

4 bilge pumps , crash valves....but i turn the engines off all the time....of course im anchored up in the bay usually less than 20 out. hell...ive got two

[RAWicklund]

Crash valves???? What are they?
My understanding is that they use bilge water to cool the engine. But what happens if there isn't enough water to supply the engines.
Short term pump out.... but possibly overheating??
Educate me please.
Ray

[jspiezio]

I have to say that I am guilty of shutting down quite often. Drift fishing for Mako I try to be very quiet, chunking giants, even wreck fishing for Cod/Pollock/Blackfish.

I really never worried about it. Now you guys have ruined my peace of mind.....

[randall]

ray....crash valves are simply using the engine as a pump. on my boat you close the main intake valve and open the crash valve. now the bilge is the water source for the engine. you would not do this unless there was A LOT of water in the bilge. a friend of mine hit a shoal in the middle of the night knocking his rudder askew. as the boat filled with water he closed the seacock and disconnected the hose. the engine kept it pretty even till he was able to run the boat up on the launching ramp.

today i hooked the garden hose up to the crash valves and ran both engines for a while so i could change the oil.....the boats in the shop driveway

[CaptPatrick]

Ray,

Operating a crash valve, as Randall implied, is only done under extreme situations where the normal bilge pumps won't keep up with the water coming in. Also, the operation requires that you closely monitor the bilge water level and be prepared to shift the valve(s) back to the normal raw water configuration so that engine cooling water is not interupted. A crash pump can be rigged using a "T" below the normal ball valve, then adding another valve of the same size from the "T" and then a hose with a strainer pickup foot. A crash pump can also be rigged with a 3 way valve, eliminating the need for the second valve in the "T" configuration.

Rigging only one engine with a crash valve is better than none, but you're gambling that that engine will be in running condition when the need arises. Best to rig both engines with their own crash valves. It'd be a real let down to need the pump & the engine not rigged is the only working one... Also gives twice the pump volume, (IF both engines are operable), for that realllly big hole in the hull.

Br,

Patrick

[Sean B]

Crash valves???? What are they?
My understanding is that they use bilge water to cool the engine. But what happens if there isn't enough water to supply the engines.
Short term pump out.... but possibly overheating??
Educate me please.
Ray

Here is what the emergency bilge pumpouts look like on my boat:





It is an easy upgrade, an afternoon of basic plumbing and busted knuckles is all.

You don't really need to do all this though to use the technique of pumping a flooded bilge with your engine.

In a pinch, you can take the lid off of one (or both) of your strainer and shut off the raw water seacock. Instant crash pump, assuming you can get all that done while underwater in the bilge.

It would never pump the water lower than the level of the top of your strainer lid, but that would keep you floating.

In an emergency you could do that to one engine, and run that motor in neutral gear as fast as you want/need as the pumpout, keeping the water level steady, while using the other engine to get to safety.

And yes, you would need someone else to watch the water level to make sure it doesn't go dry.... so you don't burn up your water pump impeller (and hence your ability to pump out).

Better yet, get the raw water flow alarms to let you know when the bilge is pumped out. They're useful for lots of other situations too.

Same thing/technique for the valved type bilge strainer or "crash pump" that I put in, except that I put in blige strainers too so I won't suck up any bilge junk.

But whatever the technique, you have to be able to do it while underwater, in your own bilge, and probably while 98% freaked out. So practice.


BTW - yes bonding wires are on them, but that work happened after these pics :)

[Sean B]

damn... posting at the same time again

Well read Capt Pat's (better) desription and look at my pics

[Sean B]

okay through insomnia and persistence I think I found the reason they almost sunk this boat.

Consider this quote:
PORT CANAVERAL, Fla. (WOFL FOX 35, Orlando) -- A pleasure boat outing proves to be anything but for four boaters. Their vessel started taking on water about twenty-five miles off Florida's Atlantic Coast.

Glenn Hoffmeister, who was visiting Florida from St. Louis, chartered a fishing boat out of Port Canaveral. Instead of getting a big catch, he ended up on a sinking ship.

"We put the lures out and all of a sudden something took all five of them at once. We were bringing all those in and re-baiting and all of a sudden one of the back hatches popped off and it was all water and we said we've got a problem," said Hoffmeister.
________________________________

And also the video on this page: http://www.wesh.com/news/16364996/detai ... l&psp=news

Appears to me that they were backing down on multiple hookups of blackfin tuna, and meanwhile were flooding their aft bilge compartment via the scuppers. Once they were sunk down far enough for the scuppers to keep taking on water, it was all over, until they got saved anyway.

Hard to imagine taking on so much water through the scuppers, but I don't typically back down on fish... maybe it is (?)

According to the talking head on the video, showing the boat on the hard, they went over the whole boat and could not find anything wrong with it.

Looks like operator error, coupled with a lack of high water alarms. Probably some budweisers too.

Here are a couple more pics I found:

[Charlie J]

sean
thats for your insomnia, looks like the starboard scupper has a hole in it

[Preston Burrows]

I had not considered some B28's have a 'closed' bilge between the engine compartment and cabin area as Bruce points out- my bilges are 'open' from bow to stern,with one pump forward in the cabin area,one mid at the engine compartment's centre and one aft at the transom.........having a 'closed' bilge is probably what helped in saving them as much as the rescuers being on scene almost immediately with a pump...........I wonder if they were at a point of 'neutral' buoyancy aft as a result of the 'closed' bilge forward?It almost appears so.

Perhaps an ideal 'bilge' set up for a B28 would be a 'closed' bilge along with 2 pumps forward,2 pumps aft and crash pumps fitted to each engine's intakes?Having a 'closed' bilge with less than this configuration certainly reduces your options 'redundancy' wise.

Also makes a point for being fitted either with or without a dive or swim platform.Whilst sportsfishing rigged boats certainly 'look' better without these,I prefer having a platform on my B28 as it gives me that much more of a helpful shield or barrier between the trim tabs and running gear and landing fish as well as acting as a water deflector scupper intrusion wise if ever backing down on fish.........glad this story had a happy ending for the charterers...........fish and tales to go home with.......

[jspiezio]

Would it have been smart for the crew to go forward in this case?

I was once on a Holland 32 backing down on a Giant off of Cape Ann in fairly heavy seas. Water up and over the transom by the bucketful. When the fish was brought to the boat, and the vessel's motion stopped, the Capt realized the cabin door had come open, and the cabin and bow were rather full of sea water. Crash valves opened and a few Hail Marys later and all was well.

But we were stupid and lucky.

[Bruce]

Would it have been smart for the crew to go forward in this case?

The adrenaline is going fighting fish and you can easily get tunnel vision not paying attention to anything around you. Including your feet getting wet.

One of the first times racing, I had won the semi final and was going back down the return road to the pits and the crowd was yelling at me.
I though it was great, I had just won and couldn't see anything but out the windshield cause of the tunnel vision.

That was until the safety crews and sirens stopped in front of me. Seems the crowd was trying to tell me the back of the car was on fire.

Had no idea. That'll take the lead out of your pencil.

[Harv]

After watching the video, it appears both scuppers are stuck in an open position.

[nic]

"Hard to imagine taking on so much water through the scuppers"

Believe it! Early in the refit we are anchored up in The Mighty T for the annual ferry boat race, unusual circumstances, stern towards the racing ferries with extended family on board...8-10 bods in the cockpit...with the ferry wash repeatedly slapping against the transom...before we fitted the scupper flaps and hatch sealing...and I just wondered whether any of those waves hitting us were getting in the bilge....full bilge of water!!!!! and newly fitted high level alarm and auto bilge pumps NOT working and elderly ladies and young kids on board. We have an almost fully closed bilge fwd of the engines...story ended well but the amount of water coming through scuppers or ANY hole has to be seen to be believed.

Nic

[randall]

i know a 25 that sank cause the mechanic docked it stern to a moving tide and a stiff wind...and didnt plug the scuppers

[JP Dalik]

When we took our girl offshore the first time on a "sea trial" We got caught up in a great dolphin bite. Kept backing up to the structure and spinning on some of the less cooperative critters.
Always got some water in the bilge.
If you take you side panels out you'll see that the deck comes no where near creating a waterproof seal to the hull. Further our aft deck support was hollow in the middle with a small ship rail so if you backed down hard you could easily send water into the bilge.
If you were really stupid you could find yourself standing in a foot of water wander how did this happen.
If you own a little boat (under 38ft.) you have no business playing ESPN and backing hard on fish in anything but the flattest of conditions.
The bottom line is that those who know drive forward. Those that don't smoke em back and occaisiona;ly get into trouble. All boats go better with the pointy end moving ahead.

[randall]

they did some pretty heroic back downs in panama. i got waved over the transom a few times ...once a half filleted mahi wound up in my lap.

i have those ball in a cup type one way valves on my scuppers.....and they work great

[In Memory Walter K]

I always maneuver to try to keep the angler directly in line with the fish, but really don't like backing down hard on a fish. If I do, I back down slowly. In fact, you're using heavy tackle on a giant, you're tiring the fish as a boat the size of ours isn't as much of a threat of breaking off as a big battlewagon sportsfisherman. Another advantage for a B-31. On smaller boats, let em tow you. Open scuppers and hard backing down is an accident waiting to happen, in my opinion. Walter

[Harv]

"Hard to imagine taking on so much water through the scuppers"

With me, my dad, John Dunker, Doug Crowther, 4 pails of chum, 4 slabs of bait, a cooler full of ice in the cockpit, and those big V-8 diesels in the bilge of Crow's Nest, and you'll see how fast water can come in through the scuppers.

[Harv]

Sound like handy people to have around in an emergency!!! Rags or shirts stuffed in the scuppers can do pretty good job of slowing the watter to a manageable flow.

That's exactly what we did, and went shopping for scuppers as soon as we landed at the docks.

[Carl]

I anchored up offshore in some big sea's, then came around and jumped onto the deck, splash. The deck was covered in water. The couple we where with was just yacking away on the motor boxs and didn't even notice. Anyway a few seconds of panic set in...then I realized the scuppers where going way underwater every time we went up a wave, filling that transom section with water, then as the boat went down the next wave all that water came out onto the deck, then the boat preceeded up the next taking on more water as the scuppers again went under.

I ran in the cabin, grabbed a foam knee pad, a knife and cut a few pieces to jam into the inside holes so the water would not come in. Then checked the bilge which was pretty high, but the pumps seemed to be handling it. Then found some dish towels and stuck them into the scuppers from the outside. Somewhere along the way my wife asked if something was wrong and I said something to the effect "we where sinking".

It really don't take too long to take on a whole lot of water thru the scuppers.

[randall]

i stand at the transom and watch the little ball fill the hole than roll away...then fill the hole ,then roll away...drift for hours stern to a rocking following sea and never take a drop.

[Sean B]

Reading all these stories makes me wonder if scuppers aren't a huge design mistake in general.

My last boat, a 23 proline, had really large diameter drains on each side of the cockpit deck, that were piped to drain overboard to the side of the hull, just above the waterline. One time one of them clogged with some tree junk, so I stuck a running water hose in the thru-hull trying to clear it by backwashing into the cockpit. No go, the damn thing has a check valve in it too.

Seems like this is a lot better design than a couple holes out the back, which also happens to occasionally sink boats

[Ironman]

When wqe hook a marlin or something big....
My Hawiian friend always turns on the cabin bilge shuts the cabin door... Then backs down to his hearts content... Ive got the Cabo scuppers Mikey sent me.. they slam shut & it takes a good gush of water to get the deck draining again. Before I had the seastops that just hang open & need to be bungee d shut when 2 or three guys are in the corner.... BUT then they dont open !
Wayne

[Kingfish]

It's interesting that the starboard engine hatch appears to open front to back, while the port engine hatch opens side to side.

Not that it makes any difference, maybe designed that way on later 28's.

Mine both open side to side.

[r2d2]

The ladder is on the flip side too.
Anyway I don't see how duirng backdown the scuppers would allow that much water in. They aren't that big.
Plus there should be 3 bilge pumps on that boat.
I suspect some bilge pumps were not working.

[nic]

Harv, I was quoting someone else who said that and was trying to make the point that you have to see it to believe it how quickly water can fill the bilge from those scuppers....yes, Sean, being so close to the water it is amazing to me that more 31s have not sunk because of that...but they haven't.

Nic