Battery woes

Sean B · Post by **Sean B** » May 11th, '08, 21:07

About two weeks ago one of my batteries went dead.

Maybe three years ago I treated both 6D lead/acid batteries with the pink juice from JC Whitney that I read about here. They would need to be topped off with water every 4-6 months, and did not need a terrible amount for their size- maybe a quart of DI water for each battery (divided into the six cells).

I was about due or slightly overdue to be checking the water level - probably checked/filled it about 6 months ago.

Well, upon finding that the bad battery wouldn't start the engine, I got in there and was very surprised to find that the battery was VERY hot (almost too hot to touch), and that two of the six cells were very low on water, or perhaps even empty. A whole glalon of DI didn't even fill it up. By the time I finished toping off both batteries, I used three whole gallons of DI water, and two went into the hot/trouble battery. This is a whole lot more more water than I've ever had to add before.

I also figured that the battery that had gotten so low was probabaly destroyed. A little testing confirms that it doesn't hold much of a charge anymore. Also, now after a few hours with the charger on, both batteries get very warm and the charger is putting out a full 20 amps according to it's meter - the very high side of it's output. The trouble battery reads about 10.5 volts without help from the charger, so I know I've got to replace it, and to be conservative I plan to replace both batteries now.

My B33 has an original circa 1987 Raritan convertor, the older type ferro-resonant charger that I've heard can boil batteries when not working properly. That first time I found the battery dead, it was HOT. I would typically leave the boat hooked to shore power with the convertor on 24/7, and it worked absolutely flawlessly for me that way for ~4 years... I don't know what could cause a sudden change.

So, my questions to the faithful are:

- Should I be worried about my convertor/charger, or is this just the usual symptoms of what happens when a battery dies?

- Is it a mistake to leave that older-style convertor on all the time like that? Being that my boat is unattended for long periods, I always felt better knowing that if the pumps were needed, the batteries had the charger to help.

- Could the one battery being low on water cause the charger to be overcharging the other? Now that they're both full of water and they both get warm on the charger... well I'm not sure what to think.

- Is there some way to test a charger for proper operation?

- I'm not sure, but these batteris are probably about 5 years old (definitely at least 4 years). How long should they last?

- Any recommendations for suppliers for new batteries? I'm going to stick with the deep cycle lead-acid type.

I don't want to buy two new batteries and have a defective charger boil and kill them.

Thanks men

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » May 11th, '08, 21:39

At 4-5 years, sounds like you're at the end of the of the life cycle of your batteries. If one of your 8D's shorted itself out, combined with the fact that your charger was pumping a 20 amp charge into it, might explain it being hot. Also, based on how your boat is wired, one bad battery could drain the other. I would bet that two new batteries will solve all your problems. Leaving your charger on full time is normal where I come from, for the same reasons you did. If your charger is pumping 20 amps into your new batteries an hour after you put them in, THEN your charger needs to be addressed. Walter

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » May 12th, '08, 09:18

If its a Raritan crown convertor, its not a FR charger.

A FR charger uses no regulator board, the output voltage is controlled by the transfomer. Most all modern chargers are FR, scr or switching and have no specific adjustable regulators.

The problem with the older raritan chargers is that they used a sliding wire wound resistor to control volage output. This resistor was hard to set, will drift calibration and the wires would corrode.

Raritan came out in later years with an upgraded regulator board, a design they stole from me after I started using parts from radio shack to replace those outdated wire wound resistors.

You can get one of those or just go with the new FR chargers.

Sean B · Post by **Sean B** » May 13th, '08, 11:20

Thanks Walter and Bruce.

Bruce - Are you sure it isn't one of those FR convertors? I'm not too swift in this area and I don't know really know how to tell. I have the original docs for it, but they don't really say much (that I can decipher anyway)

This is what it is:
Raritan Crowne II "Automatic Marine Convertor"
Model # R4012B-3
DC Output: 12V 40 A

Does any of that mean anything to you? This is original equipment on a 1987 boat.

One of the mechanic guys I've had at the boat said that the raritan charger was a good one that won't cook batteries, whatever that is worth.

There is some instruction in the docs about how to adjust the output, perhaps in the way you were describing, but it didn't sound like anything that I'd be willing to attempt alone. The outside casing of the convertor appears to be in very good shape.

Also, if I were to go for the new AGM batteries - would this charger be okay for them or do they need something special? AGM sellers say any old charger is fine, but ....

Also this is probably a really stupid question, but I have to ask (no such thing as a stupid question, right?): I don't know for sure whether these are 4D or 8D batteries. I have assumed they are the large 8D's considering they are starting 3208's. There are no markings on them that I can see in their current position, but they measure about 19"x11"x8" tall. Is that enough to indicate 4D or 8D?

Without the charger active on them my starboard battery only holds 10.2 volts (the one that I found really dry), and the port one is fine. I guess I'll be changing them both though. With the charger on for a while both batteries get really warm and outgas from all 6 cells on each battery.

The outgassing was pretty typical behavior before the problems began, but I didn't do a good job of monitoring temperatures before all this - so I don't know if it is unusual or not.

Thanks

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » May 13th, '08, 11:52

Sounds like you have the 4D's, which is fine and more manageable from the point of view of your changing them with a friend. The 8-D's usually need a fork lift. If you're doing it, most places want the old batteries or they'll charge you extra. I've gotten mine from Interstate and have been pretty satisfied.
Walter

AndreF · Post by **AndreF** » May 13th, '08, 12:14

AGM's are cleaner, lighter, smaller, easier to handle.
Plus, Sean, you need to modernize your life.......

JP Dalik · Post by **JP Dalik** » May 13th, '08, 13:00

The other downside to the outgassing is that the gas is very corosive (?sp). I remember working on a commercial boat with no battery covers just tie downs and you couldn't stand to be in the hole. All the recondensed water formed on the horizontal surfaces and was basically battery acid. Had to wash everything down with fresh water a couple of times and give it a good wipe down. Went through one shirt and one hat doing that job. Bad news is it probably took years off of my life and I won't get to see the flying cars of the future.

Run you finger across any dew or condensation you find down below and taste it. You may find it to be fairly acidic.

Sean B · Post by **Sean B** » May 13th, '08, 13:49

Ummm... I don't eat acid anymore

JP Dalik · Post by **JP Dalik** » May 13th, '08, 14:01

OK I'm out

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » May 13th, '08, 14:15

Sean,
Yes that crown is a non FR. It has a lite, switchs one on/off the other auto/man, meter on the front. The overall cover will hinge down and there is a cover held by 4 screws about 4x6".

If you remove that cover that is the regulator board. I'd suggest you remove the cover to see if you have the wire wound resistor adjustment that has a band that slides up or down or if its been upgraded to the blue enclosed pot.

Its a good charger to adjust for different types of voltages with the new type regulator board. the old boards were prone to over charging after time degraded the wire resistor.

Also most marine electricians are idiots and have no clue as to how to set a charger up properly. Good thing most all chargers since the mid 90's were FR's for that reason.

Sean B · Post by **Sean B** » May 13th, '08, 17:26

Bruce
I'll have a look inside the magic blue box and see which version I've got there. thanks! BTW your description fits what I have exactly (no surprise there)

JP
You are right, when it's running full blast the gases coming off those batteries have a smell that makes you want to get out of the bilge really quick... probably poison chlorine gas. Am serious thinking about getting the truly sealed AGM's. My battery boxes have clear lids and I can see condensate forming on the underside of the lids. So.... how much time did you spend tasting acid in the bilge of that commercial boat? and I thought i had a misspent youth

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » May 14th, '08, 08:02

Back in the 70's the batteries in my B31 were boiled by a charger. It corroded almost all of the metal work in the cabin. I have only recently been bringing some of it it back to a good shine!

Sean B · Post by **Sean B** » May 14th, '08, 17:07

Okay here is what the convertor looks like, inside and out

There is a circuit board instead of a wire-wound resistor (is this the assembly that they copied off your inventions Bruce?)

When I had it open I saw nothing at all in there that appeared to be adjustable.

However when I got home and looked into the docs, there is a description of how to adjust it using two potentiometers on that circuit board. An adjustment procedure of the "current limit" is described, to be done while hooked to a fully discharged battery. There is also an adjustement of the "cut-off voltage" after the batteries are fully charged.

I'm not sure I want to mess with this too much... but thought that after installing new batteries I'd adjust the cut-off voltage to be sure it is 13.6 V as recommended in the manual. Seems like this would be the setting to monitor to keep it from cooking my new batteries.

Think this is a smart thing to do, or should I just leave the damn thing alone?

Sean B · Post by **Sean B** » May 14th, '08, 17:12

Oh yeah one more Q: can this charger be hooked up to the new AGM batteries?

Feels like you ought to send me a bill

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » May 14th, '08, 18:04

Yes that is the upgraded board. Somebodies already replaced it. My change is the little blue pots with the slotted screw on the end instead of the wire wound resistor.

You see how involved the setup is. And yes you should check it with your new batteries. Just don't hook it up and forget it.

Call Raritan and see if they will recommend someone in your area.

The only difference between battery types is the voltage and since it is adjustable with yours you can use it with any type of battery.

Just set the voltage for your battery type. If your not sure, contact the maker of your batteries.

Sean B · Post by **Sean B** » May 14th, '08, 19:16

As Elvis would say, thankyouverymuch!

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » May 15th, '08, 08:33

I use a Xantrex Trucharger that has an AGM setting. My Exides have lasted 7 years now!

bertram31.com

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