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In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Feb 4th, '08, 19:18

Don't know how many of you know this as I found out the hard way. If you store waypoints, secret spots, routes etc in your GPS, know that there is a small soldered in lithium battery in the guts of your GPS that has a 3-5 year life. Nowhere in my Northstar 952 book did it tell me that. Nor is there any warning light that goes on to warn you. We in the Northeast pack up our boats for the winter and don't use the units until the Spring. I found out by turning on my unit one Spring and discovering that everything I had stored was gone. I just came back from my electronic repair guys who will pull what I have stored and put it on a disk for me, then replace my battery with a fresh one. Don't know if the Garmin, Furuno, Raymarine units have the same situation but the Northstar surely does. Ask your electronics suppliers about the units you have. Better be safe than sorry. Walter

randall · Post by **randall** » Feb 4th, '08, 19:43

thanks for the warning....stanleys northstar with all those waypoints is still sittin in a box in the shop...ill check it out tomorrow

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Feb 4th, '08, 21:41

Walter.........strange that you would bring up this subject.

At my shop we use PC's to program our machine tools. The program does not need or warrant a high dollar sophisticated computer

I have thought for a while now that when the computer geeks get stumped they simply make up a story that ends up with "You need to replace this PC with a new Dell". What the hell I don't know any better.

Recently one of my OLD PC's started acting up, locking up and just getting goofy but the one thing that it did was give me a message that indicated there was a time problem and said something about BIOS.

Long story short.........after spending about $300 with the computer people replacing graphics card, formatting the hard drive, replacing the CPU we purchased and replace a battery that is located on the mother board.............and guess what........a $2 battery fixed the problem.

On this PC the battery was not soldered onto the board

Harry

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Feb 4th, '08, 21:50

Walter

All the units have the battery. Your lucky they can pull your way points for you. Would be nice if they gave us a port so you could down load to a PC, then when it dies you don't need to worry. Tony Meola

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Feb 4th, '08, 22:15

The least they could do would be put in a warning message, beeper, or something like that. I read the manual and found no warning or instructions about battery servicing. A port would be almost too much to expect. God forbid we could do it ourselves. Walter

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Feb 4th, '08, 22:30

Harry Babb wrote: At my shop we use PC's to program our machine tools. The program does not need or warrant a high dollar sophisticated computer

Harry what CAM are you programming with?

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Feb 5th, '08, 08:45

I know Raymarine has that battery situation as well.

I have a friend in Rye who will have to send his in to have it replaced.

If Raymarine decides it is worth it. Otherwise he will need to buy new.

You are right. It sucks...

Dug

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Feb 5th, '08, 09:19

I record all the waypoints in my little secret book that no one sees. I use the plotter on the trips and then record them later to the log and then the book. Its my backup, you backup your hard drive is one thing but # on fishing spots should be on paper. Just my two cents. Hey Walter it was nice to see you yesterday.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Feb 5th, '08, 09:58

Yeah I think all of them have the backup batteries. I think they expect you to trash the old unit and by a new one before the battery goes.

Think that is bad...my first "real CNC" I bought used. Paid a few bucks more then I needed to but I got the dealer to toss in a Guarrantee it would work when they hooked it up in my shop. Long story short when they cranked up the machine it was dumb as an OX, lost all its memory. They had to call in a tech frome several states away. He comes in looks over machine and say's the battery is dead, he'd order one and come back tommorrow to install. Battery gets shipped in Red label from Ohio, he installs then proceeds to Re-Commision machine, however finds out his data discs are not correct and orders new ones. He goes home, comes back the following day and installs the new Red Labeled discs and proceeds to finish Recommisioning the machine.

Traveling time for tech 3.5hrs each way @ 90.00--630.00
Three trips @630.00 $1890.00
1st day 1hr min@ 110/hr
2nd day 4hrs @ 110/hr $440.00
3rd day 3hrs @ 110/hr $330.00
Two Red label Early deliverys 70.00

Cost of battery- $11.00

That little $11.00 battery cost over $2800.00 to change. So when I hear about the batteries in computers that die... I just laugh.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Feb 5th, '08, 10:40

Sure says something about purchasing used electronic equipment. Walter

TailhookTom · Post by **TailhookTom** » Feb 5th, '08, 12:17

Brewster:

Where was it you stored that little notebook of yours -- I'll keep an eye out to make sure no one tries to look in it -- honest, you can trust me!

Just kidding - but I know the pain -- I have a friend that has a big custom Carolina hull -- yeah, the pink boat -- anyhow, I wouldn't have wanted to be on the other end of his call to Northstar when his battery went -- lost waypoints from Carolina to CT and all useful stops in between.

Makes that $3 spiral notebook I have keep for 11 years seem invaluable!

So, which drawer was that notebook in again?

RussP · Post by **RussP** » Feb 5th, '08, 13:04

On our Garmin plotters you could scroll down the menu and it tells you the battery status. It doesn't seem to matter down here as the fishing went to S@#& lately and it doesn't matter where you go even the old hot spots resemble a dead ocean. We were in the Keys last week and all we could muster were some short snappers and groupers. Plenty of live ballyhoo but nothing around to eatem'. The water is still 74* in the river and the Sails haven't made their way down yet.

It's all Al Gores fault.

RussP

ed c. · Post by **ed c.** » Feb 5th, '08, 15:10

Walter, i have a Furuno 31 GPS that went on me outside the inlet. I went to the local electronics shop and they told me that i would have to send it to Furuno on the West coast, which i did. I'm glad i had a backup plotter. This was in the middle of July, they said they would send it back with a new battery by December 1. I flipped out and got hold of the supervisor
and after a brief discussion with me and my cousin i had the unit back in 6 days. The batteries come from China, but they did find one for me.

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Feb 5th, '08, 15:19

SIM, What type of machine was it, and which control?

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Feb 5th, '08, 15:43

This is a bit like the ethanol thing...took a little time to hit. We all switched from loran to GPS/chartplotters just about 5-6 years ago and the batteries are starting to go just about now. Having to send them in for servicing is insane. Sure is an argument for a backup GPS handheld with every fish and waypoint put in PLUS the $3 notebook. Strange, my lorans must be 15 years old without need of an internal battery. Uncle Vic is right..."the enemy of good is better". Walter

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Feb 5th, '08, 21:34

Walter

Hate to tell you this but you have been lucky with that loran. They have the battery also. There is just no getting around it. Oh by the way, your desk top PC has one too, but that one can be replaced. They got us. Tony

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Feb 5th, '08, 22:42

Damn! Sorry to hear that. Bet my bottom dollar you won't be able to find a replacement for a loran unit's battery because they don't make them any longer. Most companys stopped making Lorans as they were betting on the phase-out. God forbid our satelites ever fail. No navigational back up besides your compass and watch. Glad I learned that half a century ago. Walter

randall · Post by **randall** » Feb 6th, '08, 09:34

i had some long discussions with my dad about navigation....can you imagine navigating a light bomber at night 500 miles to a small target through antiaircraft fire and enemy fighters, through all kinds of bad weather........with a map, a flashlight ,a note pad , a compass and a watch?........dosent run in the family...i tried to hit block island in the fog (with no electronics) and missed by two miles...

algillen · Post by **algillen** » Feb 6th, '08, 12:47

You Garmin guys owe it to yourselves to at least buy a spare data cartridge... takes about 1 minute to copy all your data onto the spare memory card. I'd encourage you to buy the Garmin Trip and Waypoint manager software, and you can upload all your Garmin data into your PC.... or even better, if you have GPS coordinates on your PC, you can send the data the other direction and merge it into your GPS.

BTW, if you have an older unit (guessing over 5-6 years old), you may have to update the Garmin system software prior to saving the data because there was no menu option to save data on the early units. That process is well documented in the manual and easy to do.

http://www8.garmin.com/cartography/mapS ... ypoint.jsp

ag

P.S., make sure you get the product that has the cable and the memory card writer.... not sure if the link I supplied includes the cable.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Feb 6th, '08, 16:11

jspiezio, Emco Maier 340-Turn with a Siemens Control. A Top Shelf machine with third class service.

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Feb 6th, '08, 16:48

sim wrote:jspiezio, Emco Maier 340-Turn with a Siemens Control. A Top Shelf machine with third class service.

Expensive machine and control. Did you buy from a Maier dealer or a used machinery dealer? I am not sure you should have been billed for all that duplicate travel time, and if the machine was delivered with the battery dead ( I assume that you lost all the parameters when that happened) it really was the responsibility of the dealer to make good.

I have purchased four used machines because the prices just seemed so good-
a Mori-Seiki SL-6 with Yasnac which has been a sweet heart of a machine;
a Matsuura 2000 with Fanuc 6mb, its been so so;
a Rambaudi 800 with Fidia control, again so so ;
a Rambaudi 600 with fidia, a disaster. Everything else was new, all in all it pays to purchase new when possible.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Feb 6th, '08, 18:50

Think that is bad...my first "real CNC" I bought used. Paid a few bucks more then I needed to but I got the dealer to toss in a Guarrantee it would work when they hooked it up in my shop.

Emco sent me the bill, I sent it to the dealer. They fought it out. Emco tried to collect from me several times but I had signed the service contract clearly noting that payment was not going to be made by me, but by the dealer.

I bought the machine thru a broker/dealer as I wanted to see the shop the machine came from and I wanted a guarantee. It was my first CNC machine and we scraped everything we had to purchase it, couldn't afford to not have it run when it came in.

Emco bills for everything, multiple trips for mis-diagnoses (sp?), incorrect boards sent and returned, you really need to stay on top of them. Its a shame cause I would have more of their machines on my floor if they only serviced them as well as they built them.

You have some nice machines, must do some large work.

I run mostly small items in mid size batches, with a good bit of prototyping. We settled in on Haas machines, mostly purchased new. We have 7 now and they run all day with very little issue. The few problems we have encountered where dealt with quickly and that pretty much somes up our reason for staying with them.

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Feb 6th, '08, 19:04

I have heard a lot about Haas. I have not run one in the shop. They are said to be excellent on aluminum.

We cut about 45% aluminum, the rest being titanium, inconel, various steel, and bronze. sizes from 2 or 3 inches to 144 inches on milling and 36" swing 46" lenght on turning.

All aerospace structural stuff.

randall · Post by **randall** » Feb 6th, '08, 19:39

wheres your shop?

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Feb 6th, '08, 19:44

randall wrote:wheres your shop?

randall · Post by **randall** » Feb 6th, '08, 20:57

know it well..my wifes uncle worked there for a few decades...sounds real interesting...precise

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Feb 6th, '08, 22:08

randall wrote:know it well..my wifes uncle worked there for a few decades...sounds real interesting...precise

What was his name and what did he do? May have known him.

Some of it is super precise, locations and sizes with .0001" tolerance (sometimes less), and sometimes we have +/-.030" to play with. We machine all sorts of parts and build all sorts of assemblies. I have an outdated web site (10 years old) that doesn't really show the current equipment . We have added a lot of equipment and customers since that was put up for me (by the US Airforce no less).

The best is making boat stuff, my dad had me help him make a really nice Gin pole for our first 31, lots of folks offered to pay to have one built for them. My neighbor ruined his brand new Lee Outriggers while docking at fire island two summers ago. Lee told him they had to be replaced, I was a real hero when I repaired them for him in about 1 hour.

Someday I'll have you over to check the place out.

randall · Post by **randall** » Feb 7th, '08, 08:31

now thats a REAL machine shop....would love to come by and take a look sometime...uncle who worked for grumman was irwin berman....he was an engineer

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Feb 7th, '08, 10:41

Is Haas out of prison yet?

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Feb 7th, '08, 10:48

randall wrote:now thats a REAL machine shop....would love to come by and take a look sometime...uncle who worked for grumman was irwin berman....he was an engineer

Thanks Randall, there is a lot more now then that even shows. I spoke to my dad this AM, he knew your uncle-in-law at Grumman. Was Irwin in the LEM program early on? The world just keeps getting smaller, I think 6-degrees is reducing to about 3 with the internet.

John

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Feb 7th, '08, 16:18

i machined the entire steering on my 31, you have to see it.steering feels like a mercedes.i mounted a 11/4" piece of 316 stainless barstock on the lathe and put a 1/2" right hand internal thread in one end than a left hand internal 1/2" in the other end.i screw in a roller bering 316 ss rod end made in 1/2" left and right.i welded flat stock in middle to accept end piece from steering cylinder. changing rudder distance is a simple matter of disconnecting end piece of cylinder and rotate shaft cw. or ccw.
i went so far as to installing a 316 ss hydralic cylinder made by coursemaster steering from down under.there is 0 play in the steering,and the hold assembly is bulletproof.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Feb 7th, '08, 19:27

Haas machines are alright, they serve my purpose very well. If your used to an aggressive approach to metal removal, they will fall short. Tolerances of +/- .0001 I tend to stay away from. The Haas machines run with thermal comps and fluctuate .0001 plus they only calibrate to tenths so unless you program in metric your dead before you start.

I've done quite abit of boat stuff myself, business was started with the marine business as its base. We used to make shafts, rudders rudderports, struts and a bunch of other marine parts by the truckload. With CNC's coming into play the industry shifted becoming cut-throat, so I opted to steer the business in a different direction.

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Feb 7th, '08, 19:41

bob lico wrote:i machined the entire steering on my 31, you have to see it.steering feels like a mercedes.i mounted a 11/4" piece of 316 stainless barstock on the lathe and put a 1/2" right hand internal thread in one end than a left hand internal 1/2" in the other end.i screw in a roller bering 316 ss rod end made in 1/2" left and right.i welded flat stock in middle to accept end piece from steering cylinder. changing rudder distance is a simple matter of disconnecting end piece of cylinder and rotate shaft cw. or ccw.
i went so far as to installing a 316 ss hydralic cylinder made by coursemaster steering from down under.there is 0 play in the steering,and the hold assembly is bulletproof.

Bob- if you get a chance let us see pics, sounds like a nice set up.

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Feb 7th, '08, 19:48

sim wrote:Haas machines are alright, they serve my purpose very well. If your used to an aggressive approach to metal removal, they will fall short. Tolerances of +/- .0001 I tend to stay away from. The Haas machines run with thermal comps and fluctuate .0001 plus they only calibrate to tenths so unless you program in metric your dead before you start.

I've done quite abit of boat stuff myself, business was started with the marine business as its base. We used to make shafts, rudders rudderports, struts and a bunch of other marine parts by the truckload. With CNC's coming into play the industry shifted becoming cut-throat, so I opted to steer the business in a different direction.

SIM- I know, as the MBA bean counter types say at meetings- Capital is no longer a discriminator. In other words, so many people have CNCs now it is really hard to differentiate yourself. We do it by going after work that is 1) close tolerance 2) hard metal, e.g. titanium and inconel 3) large and complex. Being veteran owned is also a plus. Still, the competition is fierce. One other way in aerospace is to gain the ear of your congressional delegation. If you have access to them the big aerospace firms will want you on board to lobby for them.

Now we are moving on to larger more complex assemblies for our customers. We are currently building the Sonar installation and the splash guards for the Canadian Navy's new helicopter from Sikorsky.

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Feb 7th, '08, 22:57

John
We use G-Zero produced by Rapid Output. The owner of Rapid Output is Don Ball..........he lives in California. I have been using G-Zero since 1995. We have both the Mill and Lathe packages.

I have been out of town since Tuesday AM........otherwise I would have responded sooner

jspiezio wrote:

Harry what CAM are you programming with?

Harry

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Feb 8th, '08, 06:29

Thanks Harry, and never a need to explain yourself to me. I will follow up with Mr. Ball next week. I am looking for a good easy to use 2/3 axis CAM. We use Catia and NCL, which is great for 4/5 axis but they can be cumbersome for 2/3 axis applications.

Like to get suggestions from folks who are actually using the software so I can get past sales pitches.

Now, get to work on De Nada, spring is almost here. 75 degrees in NY this week, I'm thinking of not hauling next year if the winters are always going to be like this.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Feb 8th, '08, 07:54

Like to get suggestions from folks who are actually using the software so I can get past sales pitches

I looked at Surf and MasterCam before deciding on GibbsCAM. For 2-1/2 axis mill and lathe it was the quickest to go from looking at a print to generating good code. I found it to be intuitive, easy to learn, easy to teach and untill you get into complex parts it really shines, then the simplicity of the system becomes its downfall.

Down side is the maintence fee and that dam doggle key...but someones gotta pay to keep the support and upgrades.

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Feb 8th, '08, 08:33

John
I was looking for software.......I think around 1994........when I discovered G-Zero. My search lead me to Surfcam, MasterCam, SmartCam and Gibbs as well as the G-Zero.

I honned in on the Gibbs and really liked it but at the time the software only worked on a Mac computer. The other packages that I mentioned was way to complicated for me at that time and were out of my price range.

I am more than pleased with my decision to purchase G-Zero. Its easy to use and Don has available any level of support that you may ever need. Its funny.......the earlier versions of G-Zero were basic menus and scared a lot of people because it did not have a lot of "Smoke and Mirrors".

As far as support (very very important to me) you can choose to do nothing or you can purchase "In House" training or simply annual upgrades. About every year or so I pay Don or Gary to come to my shop and train my newer machinist or give my vetrans a refresher course. It's usually $500 per day plus travel expenses.

I know these guys personally.......give them a call for a demo.....you will not be disappointed.
Don Ball (925) 264-4495

Harry

bertram31.com

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