What's next?

JP Dalik · Post by **JP Dalik** » Oct 9th, '07, 21:13

Haven't had a good rant in a while so here it goes.

We all know the history of our beloved boats but I believe the die hard fishing aspect of this company has come and gone.
What if I told you that a newly designed mid sized Bertram will incorporate a mezzanine- "Oh that's very good, all the new boats have one of them."
Now what if I told you that this boat will have an electric roll down cabin window so that you can serve your guests food from the galley, the galley which will be located at the back of the salon. "More wine dear, Oh yes please, By the way whitey on the right short let me clear the dishes"

Where do you sleep when its rough, the front or back of the cabin? I guess now the port won't need to be decantered.
The new 70 will feature the full midship cabin, spiral staircase and a host of other yachty things.
When asked about what the company has done to make the boats more fishable the corporate response was "Oh you can fish on them too."
In the North American Sport boat market there used to be 4 major big boat production players. I guess now its down to 3.
Hold on to what you have fella's, they were built during the glory years of a true fishing boat builder. Today's Bertram.............an eagle in gold chains wearing lots of aftershave.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Oct 9th, '07, 21:36

JP

Looks like they have not learned from past mistakes. They took the 31 and said, hey we sold 2500 of them but if we build a 30 footer we can sell more because the woman will love them. Then everything came apart on them.

This is that wonderfull European influence and what some some genius up in marketing thinks will sell. Back in the old days, Bertram and Hatteras were the boats the others looked up to. They made the hardcore fishing boats and for those that wanted high end quality and did not fishe, what was considered at the time big pleasure yachts.

Only time will tell. Tony Meola

RussP · Post by **RussP** » Oct 9th, '07, 23:08

If your going to spend that kind of coin on a 70ft'er you would expect that kind of thing, even Ocean Yachts 73 has a circular staircase inside to get to the bridge. These are excersion boats and most owners have the captians drag a 300K center console behind them to fish off. The new 410 still looks a little euro but is's a fishing machine. Next time your in Miami go for a tour and see how they are made, you'll be inpressed. Nothing like the old school boats were running. Viking and Hatteras are offering the same kind of thing to keep up with what the custom builders are offering.

RussP

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Oct 10th, '07, 05:10

Its been going on for awhile. Friend was in the market for a sub-40 SF--we looked at the 39 and new 36. Family friendly, but not fish friendly at all.

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Oct 10th, '07, 07:34

From what I have learned over the past two years.. the trend in new boats has been away from utilitarian and strong to glitzy and pretty. Why? New boaters don't appreciate the stress a boat can be subjected to when taken out to sea. Old salty experienced boaters do. New boaters want to entertain their friends and use their boats as floating condos. Old salty boaters want a strong fishing type boat first, that can double as a family and friends boat second. New boaters want the biggest boat they can get for the money they have to spend, old salty boaters want the strongest boat thay can get for their money. New boaters want a boat for cruising in harbors and along shore, old salty boaters want to gto 20-30-50 miles offshore to fish. Etc.. etc.

Plus.. it is cheaper to build glitzy than strong. Fiberglass costs money. I haven't verified this, but I was told that you can learn a lot about the quality of a boat by comparing the weight per foot between various manufacturers. Nobody "wastes" fiberglas by overbuilding, and today's market wants size over strength. Manufacturers build to their market. A large part of the the market is new, rather ignorant, and can't appreciate hidden strength features as compared to smoked bubble non-opening windows ("Hey, is has AC after all!").. beefier stringers, stainless fittings, and access for repair.

I have an old time surveyor friend who has forgotten more about boats than I will ever know.. I spent two days with him recently, looking at insurance claims with him, and asking dumb questions. After two days I finally asked him.. "Not including custom built boats, which manufacturers build quality boats these days?" He thought for a minute and said, rather sadly.... "These days.. none of them are worth a s***!)

End of story!

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Oct 10th, '07, 07:46

Its sad that they dont get it. I went on a 57 this summer to help out a captain for the day and the owner and his kids sat inside watching yoda and only came on deck to reel in a fish after it was half dead. Then back inside to the tv. After this happened 5-6 times they had us reel the fish in. We asked them if they wanted to go home and they said "no, we really love to fish and sat in the sallon for the rest of the day. The owner never came out on deck or up to the bridge once. His kids think thats what fishing was all about. I was sad for them. My father made me stand in the rain and big waves and catch nothing, but I love him because we stood in the rain together and were cold and wet as father and son. We did catch some fish but that was not the point. We were outside together fishing! NO yoda no tv no ac.

randall · Post by **randall** » Oct 10th, '07, 08:22

im with you brewster....with us it wasnt fishing, but the days and days i spent snowboarding with my son formed an everlasting bond and we both know what the other is made of....face it...guys with small old bertrams are a breed apart....and then some

Capt. DQ · Post by **Capt. DQ** » Oct 10th, '07, 09:44

I hear you Brewster and I feel sad for them TOO!

Both my Son & Daughter were raised fishing on the fact there was no TV or AC on the boat, just us & friends and fun of fishing & being together on the water.

My Son like to fish alot of JR Angler offshore tournments with his friends on the B31 and I would have them run the deck and catch the fish while I ran the boat and had a deckhand friend watch out over them for the safety issues with them and you talk about funny watching those Jr Angler's run that deck, fishing.

We laughed so hard @ them and still, till this day those kids are grown now, but still remember fishing together having fun & gettin sick, puking over the side of the boat!
Not sitting inside the cabin, because there was no TV or AC, you wanted to be outside on the deck fishing!

Do yourself a favor and take a kid fishing.

DQ

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Oct 10th, '07, 09:57

Looks to me as thought the majority of today's big boater's are the baby boomers who spent their working life accumulating enough $$ to impress each other with stuff. And too really impress, one must remember the American mantra, "Bigger is Better!" Ain't got to take it to sea, just to your neighbor's dock or club.
These fair-weather, ascot-wearing, check-writing fools will never know the delight in watching the sun come up out of a starless, moonless, pitch black night. They will never know the thrill of flying off the crest of a wave and slamming down into a trough, teeth clenched and grinning like an idiot because they know the worst of it is a soaking from the wave from our "wet" boats. They will never sit in the broiling sun, sniffing diesel 'til they are ready to puke, sipping warm suds, eating sandwiches that a refugee would refuse and looking up from their dozing in time to see the man-in-the-blue-suit hit that trailing bait.
We don't own these boats. We are as Vic has observed but Stewards of the best boat ever built and we can grin smuggly and knowingly at each other because there is a pleasure we derive that they never will.
Ain't life grand!?

randall · Post by **randall** » Oct 10th, '07, 10:32

to be fair...my friends with the 60 are as hard core as anyone....well maybe not anyone...but they fish hard and go deep.......they just spend a lot more to do it and they dont miss the football game

AndreF · Post by **AndreF** » Oct 10th, '07, 11:30

Check this out:

http://www.fearlessyachts.com/index_flash.php

randall · Post by **randall** » Oct 10th, '07, 12:02

too car like...but cute in a non nautical kind a way....

JP Dalik · Post by **JP Dalik** » Oct 10th, '07, 12:19

Russ,
I've been to Miami and I'm not impressed with the factory Quite frankly its a hole. Ever been to New Gretna? There's no comparison.
Anytime you can take a 3 foot straight edge and place it on the walkway of the mezzanine and there is a 1/2" hump on either end its not impressive.
Have you ever run a straight edge across the hatches of the mezzanine, Christ you could lose a toe, God have mercy on the poor sole that has to put a teak deck in one of these boats.
Saw another 63 with more void repairs in the hull than you could imagine. Pretty patch work too, "no no don't paint the whole hull just the spots you fixed. They'll never notice"
The 57 pours salt water into the engine room when its moderately rough out not to mention the never ending cracks at the cockpit gunnel seams.
Ever try doing an oil change in a 570 with the Factory change system "nightmare"
Rudders leaking and breaking off, sending boats to the "factory" for repair only to have the same issues show up again and again.
Ask Ocean, Viking and Hatterass about what they've done to improve fishing on their new boats I bet you won't hear "Oh you can fish on them too"
This isn't about who builds a better boat its about who still builds a boat to go fishing on. Based on Ferrettis influence I think Bertram gave up.

nic · Post by **nic** » Oct 10th, '07, 19:17

Andre,

There is a boatload of boats like that, the designers all influence each other. Here is one I used to be involved with, almost the same as the 68:

http://www.warrenyachts.com/

The designers of a Lexus sports model car say they picked up design influence from an early one of these types so Randall is right, car like.

They are picnic boats because the non-boating owners want that. They have crew because of the size and their lack of knowledge so somehow it all works out. I was on a 63 down here and everybody loved it but I just wanted to get back on board the 31. I thought I might fall to my death from the aft bridge station. I fell out with my girl-friend she organised a day out on a 120ft yacht and I said no, let's go on the 31. She couldn't believe it but I'm just over those yachts. I lived on a 175ft for three months and would not do it again. But a lot of people have a lot of fun on them and there are worse ways for them to spend their money.

The Euro influence at Bertram was always going to happen though I would have thought they were smarter than that. Maybe they will build a Riva sportfish next.

Thank God they built the 31. We're blessed to have them.

Nic

scot · Post by **scot** » Oct 10th, '07, 19:40

I guess the new concept of fishing is the TV series were Richie-Rich and his wife cruise all over the planet in that yatch while the personal chief cooks the catch of the day. I think the name of the boat is "Go Fisch" or something like that. It's ridiculas to say the least.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Oct 10th, '07, 20:07

You know people say to me why spend the money on diesels. I thought about it a while and said what would I buy in place of a boat that has been in the family for 32 years. After thinking a while, I realized, yes there are some more comfortable, but at the end of the day, 100 miles offshore, I know I am coming home. Why spend $350,000 or more on a 30 foot Cabo, when our beloved Bertrams with Diesels will leave them in the dust when it starts to get sloppy out there. All we have to do is tear them apart every 30 or so years and rebuild them. Tony Meola

Capt. DQ · Post by **Capt. DQ** » Oct 10th, '07, 20:09

Don't ya know you already have the best of the lot. If you don't like the new ones....buy up the older ones and fixer-up if you want larger, I hate the Euro-style anyway....no matter what brand it is out there.

DQ

JP Dalik · Post by **JP Dalik** » Oct 10th, '07, 21:05

DQ,
I hear you brother, its like watching a friend go bad. You hate to see it, want to stop it, try to stop it, but in the end your helpless to do anything but be there to scrape them off the bottom.
We sit here on our little web site raving about the boats we love fending off all nay sayers and making new friends because of them and then when our boats family starts to go bad we raise the red flags and yell whoa!!!! But are in the end helpless to stop it.
Thanks for listneing to rant guys. Guess I'll just keep my Bertrams in the pre 80's from now on.

Capt. DQ · Post by **Capt. DQ** » Oct 10th, '07, 22:00

JP,

Now your going on....the older 70's & 80's model Bertrams are the better styling like the old 33's, 36's, 38's , 42's , 46's, 54's are what your looking for on Bertrams & including the express models that made them tuff and well built for fishing and lay-out design. Those are the ones I like better than the Euro-Styling.

But I fell in LOVE! with the B31 the first time I ever fished on one...back in 1980. I told myself oneday I will own me one of those boats....and in 1986, got lucky and found one needing a lot of TLC and never even looked @ owning anything else since. Just Spoiled I guess.

DQ

Hueso · Post by **Hueso** » Oct 10th, '07, 22:09

those warren yachts are "bubbles" on steroids...............if I were a millionaire I will acquire a huge piece of land and start buying B31's all over the world to fix them.............and probably keep'em till'I die

nic · Post by **nic** » Oct 12th, '07, 20:19

Hueso,

That's a bit harsh but I can see why you'd say that, so maybe fair. I remember driving the first of their 70ft sports-boats with surfacing props at 38 knots, 60ft rooster tail, was a real hoot but I feel what I've got now is much better.

On board the 31 yesterday, on the drift in protected waters, when a 35knot front came through, heavy rain, low cloud, thunder, wind. Just watched it all from between the engines boxes...bliss. Because you are so close to the water anywhere on the 31s it is the best boating. Far better than on bigger boats where you could be in a condo half the time.

I'd love to have a fleet of 31s too.

Nic

Charlie · Post by **Charlie** » Oct 13th, '07, 17:03

Now now my buddy's 55 Viking had both rudder break off, the second set fell out; but they got them fixed the third time. He also has blown the rubber shaft coupplers and an oil cooler or two in 4 years of use. The rudders broke away going the Fla the first winter.

John C · Post by **John C** » Oct 15th, '07, 05:22

Back in the mid 1990s I ran my charter boat out of clarks landing in NJ. Clarks became a dealership for bertram and took a new 46 express on floorplan to sell. We all stood there as this beast was unloaded from the low boy. The hull looked sweet below the waterline. After it was blocked, Me and all the charterboat guys ( for JP... Paul, Philly, Frank) climed all over this thing. We busted a gut laughing at this POS. V Drives. V Drives in a Bertram. Then we looked at the build quility and I can tell you guys it was piss poor. That boat sat for two years before it was sold. They lost a ton of money and Clarks gave the dealership back. The magic bertram had was lost long ago.

nic · Post by **nic** » Oct 15th, '07, 17:48

With any builder, cars - boats - planes, they have models that build their reputation and others that don't. Changes in ownership, management, changes in technology, economic times all have an effect. Think Ferrari, Aston Martin, Bentley, Ford, Gulfstream......Riva, Hatteras, Bertram.

Pleasure boating boomed in the 60s and continues so you have the weird and the wonderful but through it all the Bertram name commands respect and that started with the 31 and continues to this day.

JP's rant was about fishability and build quality. I can't believe Bertram doesn't build two ranges, like they used to, hard core fishing boats using all their design/construct experience and yachts for sissies.

Norberto owns a 31. Surely there is a retro range of fishing boats to "bring back the glory days" in someone's head at the factory. That's what I think will be next. It ain't over yet.

Now, a question. Hard core fishing requires manoeuvrability. How big is too big? Thinking here is that a real sport fish should be around 40ft max. How do you make a 70ft sportfish back up at 12 knots and spin on a dime? I know you can engineer it but I would not want to be in the cockpit when it goes under.

Nic

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Oct 15th, '07, 19:26

Great boats that are designed to do what they were created for is a matter of corporate commitment. Unfortunately, big corporations today seem to have only one commitment...making big profits no matter what it takes. This usually means mass marketing to broad affluent target audiences and skimping on building products. Smaller companies like Rybovich, Whittaker, Buddy Davis, even Liberty etc have been committed to fishing, and their products seem to show it. Fountain, Cigarette, Formula et al are committed to Racing and make products specifically for that audience. Even a make that years ago made what was considered a bubble boat, Luhrs, now makes a much better product once they decided to commit to making a fishing machine rather than a one-size-fits-all family boat. It is sad to see great boat manufacturers like Bertram go the way of the bubble boat. We have a 60 footer in Montauk that cost about $2 million who have discovered pitted shafts that seem to be magnetic. That, plus a series of other problems have the owners ready to sue Bertram. That should never be, but then again, customer satisfaction is also a matter of corporate committment. That also seems to have died along with the private company that cherished the pride of ownership of their products. We, ladies and gentlemen may be the stewards of the last vestage of that in the boating business. I personally don't think corporate Bertram today gives one damn about us and our commitment to 31's. They like the reputation that boat gave them, but won't lift a finger to make that or anything like it for a totally fishing oriented market. That's why there are so many center consoles being sold at atrocious prices, and so many wet, beat up hard-core offshore fishermen. My opinion. Walter

AndreF · Post by **AndreF** » Oct 15th, '07, 19:37

Walter,
The tight-rope "Corporations" walk is to make a profit to continue to be a "Corporation" and not a "Bankrupt Corporation".
The Supreme Law of supply and demand rules all.

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Oct 15th, '07, 20:01

Many of us have tried to convince Bertram that bringing the B31 back would be a good idea...the hood ornament for the company..we got close a couple of times. The company even hired a guy to do it, but the best the bean counters would let him do was the 36, in my jaded view not a very pretty boat. I know Norberto personally and he is a great guy, has a B31 with chrome plated Cat 3208s.....its pure economics as Don Jones and Joe Bubinzer explained to me a couple of years ago...it takes about as much factroy space and labor to build a 31 - a boat that they might hope would sell for 350K - as it does to make a 63 they get 3mil for....they have a 2 year waiting list for the 63, none for a new 31. Bertram is not building boats for the fun of it guys, they are a company with stockholders who will come to the stockholder's meeting with pitchforks if they don't make the most of what they have.........

Never will be a new B31, John & Ray with Classic 31 tried it, did not go, Bertram thought about it, $ made no sense.....let's just enjoy what we have.

UV

Capt. DQ · Post by **Capt. DQ** » Oct 15th, '07, 20:42

Just my opinion, even if Bertram brought back the B31 today.... just think... the vintage apeal you enjoy today would not be same.

I don't know about anybody else.....but when people ask me what year is that B31 and I say....its 40yrs old. Damn..... they can't believe it, and the B31 always stirs a conversation up about how well those boats fish, ride, etc. @ the dock or just crusing around.

DQ

Harv · Post by **Harv** » Oct 15th, '07, 20:54

Gentlemen,

This is why we all own "The Legend".
Anything else, even a "retro" 31 will be nothing
but a poorly contrived imposter.

Be greatful for what we have.
35 to 45 year old boats that still...
looks as good as the day it was introduced
turns heads
raises fish
takes us where others don't
brings us home no matter what
And will continue to do so for another
35 -45 years with their next stewards.

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Oct 16th, '07, 06:57

We are the luckiest guys in the world!

randall · Post by **randall** » Oct 16th, '07, 08:15

retro is never as good as original......even if its better...you cant build an old house or a "classic" anything......have heard stories of poor customer support on new bertrams

nic · Post by **nic** » Oct 16th, '07, 08:35

Brewster,

Amen.

I just think they can leverage off the best boat ever built to a greater extent. Not with a " retro" 31 re-do, there are too many originals for easy money, they are like Ferrari chassis numbers in a way, (without the zeros), or a victim of their own success. Why would you buy a Classic 31 for real money when you can get the original Legend and kid yourself (and her) how much it will cost to re-do. But they could apply the design essentials they started with to a new series of all lengths for hard core, all weather serious sport fishing without frills. Cheaper, tougher, hose-out performers like in the 60s, 70s & 80s. Not everyone will buy them, other than hard-core fisherman, but everyone will acknowledge them again and buy their second range of of smartly finished yachts with electric windows to the mezzanine deck.

But how come Liberty, and others, are filling the vacuum. Norberto left the gate open. Before him, others did...to the extent that Riviera in Queensland on the other side of the world for Chrissakes decided to out-Bertram Bertram in the 90s, (and some people believed it), and sell I don't know how many more boats than Bertram today, they build more than ten a week, and their founder re-started again after selling out for close to $100 million (net!) with a new line called.....you know I honestly can't remember what they are called after I broke my cardinal rule and went on one of their 55s at the Sydney Boatshow and everyone told me how great it was and I kept my mouth shut for once, apart from pointing out it was cheap at A$1.6m base. Well, it caught fire and sank on its way to the first fishing tournament. The 63 we looked at after (A$4m) made it safely.

UV, I know a little bit about production costings, and there is no way a 63 is the same hours as a re-tooled 31. The tumble-home is probably the most expensive thing about them. Those guys were were blowing smoke.

But all this is just a by-product of my passion for the 31, my 56th and last boat. I don't want to see it re-built though I would like to think that the current boats were worthy of the heritage, again. An old-timer here told me he served with Ray Hunt in WWII when he developed the strakes for flying boats to get them airborne quicker....that was just after I saw my first 31 and decided I had to have one, some day....the San Diego Police Boat that is on this site, thanks Capt. Patrick.

Well, you guys have me at a disadvantage as it is late at night here and dinner was great. I ran up the coast yesterday, saw more than 100 dolphins in three pods and two whales breaching. Good rant JP, thanks.

Apologies in advance if I have offended anyone.

Nic

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Oct 16th, '07, 09:37

Nic-

A friend is considering a Riviera convertible--I think a 33' or so. How are they in terms of ride and quality?

Thanks-

John F.

nic · Post by **nic** » Oct 16th, '07, 10:26

John,

That one is a PM

Nic

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Oct 16th, '07, 11:54

OK. Thanks.

bertram31.com

What's next?

What's next?

bertram

Who is online