Batteries?? How many, which kind, from where?

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Sep 14th, '07, 08:57

I have finally decided that "Phoenix" needs new batteries. (Have Cummins 315 HP 6Bs) They don't hold a charge, and if I leave the charger off for a week or so they barely turn the engines over, and when I do that the voltage shown on the gauges drops below 10 VDC.

I have one 8D for each engine, each in an 8D battery box. I don't want the hassle of moving new 160 lbs 8Ds into the boat, so I am planning on using several smaller batteries instead of one big one. In fact, I have been measuring batteries in different stores and catalogs and find that each group has essentially the same dimensions. Fortunately 3 Group 24 batteries will fit perfectly into an 8D battery box. Group 31s and Group 27s are both too large to fit more then one. I can also build a box that will fit between the engines that can take two sets of two Group 31s if I need to. I feel it might be best to have two rather than three identical batteries if I can.

So, Bertram brothers.. what say you?

Any comments about two Group 31 vs three Group 24 batteries?

I will probably bite the bullet and buy combination starting/deep cycle AGM batteries.. although I have been advised to go for the less expensive standard wet cell starting batteries. Any comments on this issue?

And finally.. where to buy them? I can get them at West and Batteries Plus here in Wilm, and most likely some of the chain auto parts stores, but where is the best bang for the bucks?

BTW: I have done several comparisons.. and surprisingly, it is pretty much immaterial, from a cost point of view, to have one large or three smaller batteries.. the $/amp hour cost for a specific manufacturer is pretty much the same across each model line, regardless of battery size.

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Sep 14th, '07, 09:48

I have two Exide Orbital Blue top DeepCycle/Starting AGM batteries in my gas B31 that are on their 6th year and seem to be going strong. The boat stays in the water all year, and I leave the charger plugged in all winter long. I use a Xantex Truecharge 40 located outboard of the port engine. It is also 6 years old. This charger is not waterproof, so it may be a better idea to mount it inside. I love them. I don't know if the Optima AGMs are any different, but you can get them at Costco or Advance Auto. I know some people love the Hawker Odyssey batteries. They are probably higher quality, at almost twice the price. Either way, go with the AGM's with a proper charger. Some of the newer chargers (I know xantex has one out) allow you to mix and match lead acid and AGM's, but that seems to defeat the purpose of not having a lead acid battery to offgas and leak!!

DRIFTER31 · Post by **DRIFTER31** » Sep 14th, '07, 11:39

How about 4D That way you wont need more than one per bank.They are alot lighter than 8D

AndreF · Post by **AndreF** » Sep 14th, '07, 11:56

I have 2 Odyssey 2150s because I stayed awake at nite dreading changing the 8Ds' .
I think the best thing about sealed batteries form any maker is they are sealed and no acid splashes, mists or emanates from them making them CLEAN and safe.
I never changed my old charger either and after 28 days with no power after Katrina, the Odysseys recharged to normal in about two hours.

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Sep 14th, '07, 13:22

Agree with Andre about the sealed AGM batteries. Not only are they sealed but they weigh a s#*t-load less than 8D's. Because they are sealed they can be put anywhere. They are also physically smaller than 8D's. I put in three Optima D31M's. One house and two for the Cummins 6BTA 300's, so they shoould work well for you. I considered the Odysseys but the price differential was tooooo much. If your charger has the ability to charge more than one type of battery don't forget to change the settings. Ask the manufacturer.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Sep 14th, '07, 20:03

i have 4 odyssey 2150 two in each custom made sealed azek box.two are house and one port and one starboard total isolation from each other,the gen. starts from the house.a true charge 40 mounted under the foward saloon seat feed all 4 isolated thru massive isolation blocks.4/0 cable between all batteries and 3 on/off switches.a parallel solonoid between port and starboard battery.engines start on 1/2 a turn every time.i have battery moniter voltage gauges to check output of port/starboard/house with low voltage alarm.can`t be safe enough in the canyon overnight.

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Sep 15th, '07, 08:03

Just a quick thank you and a response to those of you who offered info above..

The jury is still out on exactly what I will buy.. there is a wide range of prices and apparently a wide range of qualities on the market.

After seeing Andre's suggestion about Odyssey I went to their web site and found they had their 2250 batteries, two of which replace one 8D. This AM I read Bob's comments, and found he and I pretty much have the same wiring setup for our starting and house battery banks. So.. I am leaning pretty much toward two Odyssey 2250 batteries for each side.

Still not 100% committed.. haven't heard prices yet!

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Sep 15th, '07, 13:34

On the Optima check www.bigtimebattery.com

Capt. Mike Holmes · Post by **Capt. Mike Holmes** » Sep 15th, '07, 17:27

Andre, Bob, so one of these will handle a Cummins, instead of two group 27's? That's two engine batteries, total? Getting ready to consider a change, went to two group 27's on each side from one 4D (which is not THAT much smaller or lighter that an 8D, but the way), want to try something different.

AndreF · Post by **AndreF** » Sep 15th, '07, 17:59

One 2150 (Group 31) replaces one 8D. I use one for each engine. Weighs 75 lbs.
The 2250 is larger still than the 2150.
I also use 2 smaller Odysseys for my trolling motor in Whaler.

Capt. Mike Holmes · Post by **Capt. Mike Holmes** » Sep 15th, '07, 19:29

Sounds like the way to go. The web site Mikey posted has a price of $280 each. Have to see if I can get them through Port Supply.

ZeroCavity · Post by **ZeroCavity** » Sep 15th, '07, 22:35

http://www.odysseybatteries.com/battery/pc2150.htm

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Sep 16th, '07, 19:46

two azek battery boxes with 4- 2150, as you can see a perfect fit under the passageway sole between the engines.

AndreF · Post by **AndreF** » Sep 16th, '07, 20:21

Nice Bob.
I have both 2150 outside my port eng on a shelf in boxes to offfset weight of gen set which is outside starboard eng.

Capt. Mike Holmes · Post by **Capt. Mike Holmes** » Sep 16th, '07, 20:28

I have always kept my batteries between the engines, as Bob does. My genset is on the port side, actually just overcomes the tendacy of 31's to list to starboard at rest. Have a 50 gallon auxillary diesel tank outboard of the starboard engine. I like the batteries where i can get to them easily.

Capt. Mike Holmes · Post by **Capt. Mike Holmes** » Sep 16th, '07, 20:30

I have two fiberglass battery boxes that have "Bertram" molded in the top. I know they will hold a 4D each, not sure about an 8D. Cannot get two group 27's in one. If I switch to a single Odessey on each side I'll use them, otherwise, they might be for sale.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Sep 16th, '07, 20:30

andre i put my holding tank there and try to get the battery weight as low as possible.the starboard side has the gen.
i love how easy those 2150 can be moved and 6year warrantee 12 year life if kept top off under graduated charger like truecharge 40.i feel they we well worth it like i said 1/2 a turn the cummins fire up they are warm 24/7 with block heaters and not a trace of smoke.i verify this with john today (whaler 77).

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Sep 19th, '07, 21:39

Thanks again to all of you who offered your much appreciated comments. At this time I am leaning toward getting a Group 31 AGM for each engine starting battery, and two Group 24 AGMs in parallel for house power and generator starting. All of these can fit in the two 8D boxes between my engines. I can manually parallel all the batteries if need be, but will have a push button on the bridge to momentarily parallel the starting batteries if necessary. I should be able to charge them all from my TrueCharge 40A three bank charger. This has a selector switch to choose which style of battery it is charging. All three banks have to be the same type batteries, but they don't need to be the same size.

Optimaâ€™s Group 31 AGM battery has a 900 CCA capacity, and Odysseyâ€™s 2150 Group 31 is supposed to have 1090 CCA. I am presently trying to compare pricing vs capacity for these and other manufacturers, to see if one makes more sense than the other. Money talks, but when you are offshore and a battery dies we all know money suddenly becomes less important than other things.

Hookshurt · Post by **Hookshurt** » Sep 20th, '07, 00:45

Since we are on the subject of batterires. I have a B28 with 350's. I intend to build a starting bank of two "red top" Optimas for each motor for starting, a bank of three "yellow top" Optimas for the house, and a single "yellow top" as a backup on the bridge in the case of catastrophic failure so we can at least radio for help and notify of location. Any feedback on this particular plan? Thanks for your feedback.

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Sep 20th, '07, 12:13

Optima touts the Blue Tops as marine.

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Sep 20th, '07, 13:38

Deleted by IRGuy

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Sep 20th, '07, 13:55

IR: Check the website Mikey posted. They have a description of both the black and grey blue top.

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Sep 20th, '07, 15:31

Here are pix of my installation. They are under the cabin sole. Weight forward.
Added the pic of the panel and switches because . . .

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Sep 20th, '07, 15:50

Sweet Mikey!!!

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Sep 20th, '07, 16:44

Mikey, a pro job for sure. Shoot some of that new CX you just got on the battery terminals while they are nice and clean.

UV

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Sep 20th, '07, 17:14

This post replaces one I had posted a couple of hours ago.. I was incomplete in some of the info I had to share.. here is a more thorough bunch of info...
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Supposedly Optima's colors are blue and yellow top = dual purpose, and red top = starting... but apparently there is more to it than just the top color.

According to a local Batteries Plus salesman, Optima does not make a pure starting red top Group 31 battery, rather for starting he says they advise buyers to use a blue top Group 31 or a pair of red top Group 24s. I don't want to compromise my starting power by having to use dual purpose batteries, and two Group 24s cost more than other Group 31s. While I was in the store I noticed a small motorcycle battery made by Odyssey.. there are no other Odyssey batteries in the store.. so I asked him if they sold Odyssey's full line, and he said they did, they just did not sell enough of them to have many in stock, but they had them in their regional warehouses. I am moving closer to buying Odysseys. FYI: I asked if I could get any kind of discount if I bought 6 Optima batteries at the same time.. he said no, that the prices of lead and other metals has gone up so much in the past year they are seeing price increases from some suppliers monthly, and discounts were not possible.

He also explained that Odyssey batteries use 4 cranking amp ratings, so when you rate their batteries against other manufacturers be sure which cranking amp figure you are using. Most manufacturers use two ratings: CCA (Cold Cranking Amps) which is measured as the amps a battery can deliver at 0 degrees F before it's output drops to 7.2 Volts, and MCA (Marine Cranking Amps), which is a similar rating except it is taken at 32F rather than 0F. Odyssey also uses what they call the HCA (Hot Cranking Amps) rating, which is the same concept again except it is for the battery being at 80F, and a fourth rating does not have a name in their flyer, but is the battery's potential output for 5 seconds at 25C (77F), which would cause the output to drop to 7.2 volts. (they use the latter rating on their web site. Specifically their Group 31 #2150 battery is rated by them as a 2150 amp battery, but it's CCA rating is 1090 amps, so do not be misled by their 2150 amp rating.

I approached this subject believing it was simple to select two types of batteries for "Phoenix".. I was dead wrong!

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Sep 20th, '07, 20:23

Mikey

Just curious, where did you put the electrical panels? Did you stick up in the v berth or the main cabin. Tony Meola

AndreF · Post by **AndreF** » Sep 20th, '07, 21:35

Odyssey has a rating RC@25A/200minutes(?) are you saying this would drop to 7.5 volts in 5 seconds? Or are you talking about another rating. As I recall an 8D is 850-950CCA depending on maker.
They did tell me to be careful and not short them out.
How do you spell elefthicity?

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Sep 21st, '07, 09:48

Tony, Since my boat is an express things are different. The original electrical panel was on the head wall behind the main cabin door. I kept it there. All the wiring and components originate behind the panel and on the main cabin bulkhead to starboard. This is all in the head, which means in a bumpy sea you want to be careful what you grab to hold on while peeing. Originally there were panels over the wiring which, of course, will need modification and additional pieces to cover all to ABYC specs. The pix are during the wiring process so be kind. They are not quite done, but give you an idea of what's up.

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Sep 21st, '07, 09:50

Vic, As soon as I got my shipment I sprayed all the new wiring except the battery terminals. Thanks

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Sep 21st, '07, 12:00

"This is all in the head, which means in a bumpy sea you want to be careful what you grab to hold on while peeing.'

Or.. you want to be careful what you are peeing on while grabbing onto something!

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Sep 21st, '07, 18:09

Mikey

Thank You. It looks time consuming but it really looks good. I am in the middle of a repower and I am trying to figure out what to do with mine. I am not redoing the cabin yet so I am not going as far as you guys have. My current 12 volt panel in a FBC is in the locker just before the V berth. I really want to set up house batteries so I am trying to figure out the best way to go and where to put the panel. I know it will not fit in where the current one is. Thank You for the Pics. Tony Meola

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Sep 23rd, '07, 17:36

i have received a number of pm and will answer by post.this is the way the 4 2150 odassey fit in the battery boxes. the cables on all of the battery plus and minus are 4/0 cable crimped with a 12ton burndy hydralic head,then scrink tube.this goes to a electrical distribution center in the salon thru 3-on/off then by way of circuit breakers feed 4 panelboards one main in v-berth two on bridge and one in cockpit.the truecharge 40 feed the isolation diodes by way of individual breakers.

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Sep 23rd, '07, 19:30

Andre...

Since you are such a nice guy I will apologize for missing the question you asked above several days ago.. (I recall a long time ago you supported me when I asked what a RLDT was, and I owe you more respect than I have showed you!)

So, I have gone to the source of all things technically nautical.. the West Marine catalog.. the one true source! I am looking at page 508 of the 2006 catalog.. the page may have changed in the past 18 months, but I don't think elethriscisty has.

It says.. and I am paraprasing here.. that Amp Hours and Reserve Minutes (I believe this is also called Reserve Capacity) are terms commonly used when talking about deep cycle batteries, since they refer to long term house loads rather than short term starting loads.

AMP HOURS is the measure of the total amount of energy that a battery can deliver for 20 hours at a constant rate of discharge, before the voltage drops to 10.5 volts.

RESERVE MINUTES (RESERVE CAPACITY?) is the number of minutes that a battery can run a 25 amp load until it's voltage drops to 10.5 volts (just like with starting batteries).

I am learning that if you really want to do a meaningful comparison of various manufacturer's batteries you have to be very careful of the terms they are using.. with starting batteries, for example, some state CCA (Cold Cranking Amp) values (measured at 0 degrees F), while others use MCA (Marine Cranking Amp) values (measured at 32 degrees F). I personally don't think many of us will go out in 0F weather, or 32F weather for that matter!

I like Bob Lico's double dual Odyssey 2150 setup.. but I don't think I need 2 Group 31 batteries for my generator starting/house batteries.. and I do like what I believe is the fact that Odyssey seems to make a premier battery. I guess I can use the example that I never liked to date ugly girls (but just before closing time my standards usually dropped!), I don't drink cheap wine, and I don't buy cheap batteries.

I am amazed how easily my 6BTs start even with crappy batteries.. started them today after having them on the charger for about two hours.. the voltage dropped to about 8-9 volts when I hit the starter button, and after a try or two the engines fired off. Love them!

BTW: Mikey and Bob Lico.. Beautiful installations!

bertram31.com

Batteries?? How many, which kind, from where?

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