Rudders for a Gasser

[franzmerenda]

Work is in progress here and after brooding a LOT, I chose to upgrading the old Mercs 320hp 6.2 DTS, with brand new 350hp 6.2L, equipped with fresh water heat exchangers.

As a matter of fact, EU-addicted junkie rulers, pushed fuel prices to some erratic stage, with the result that diesel is often more expensive than gas (like just under 2 Euros a liter! [$7.6 a gallon]).

The boat is equipped with the original rudders and there's no way to go straight with a single engine running.

Now the question to all wise Faithful is:
Does it make any sense putting oversized rudders?

And if in case:
How much oversized, considering I would prefer keeping the original 3 blades props?

[pschauss]

Oversized rudders are an essential upgrade for the 31.

I got mine from Bobby Soles Propeller in West Palm Beach. I believe that they used Captain Pat's design. (Others please correct me if I am wrong.)
Based on the drawing that they sent me the overall length of the blade i6" long, maximum width 10".

[John F.]

Oversized rudders are an essential upgrade for the 31.

I got mine from Bobby Soles Propeller in West Palm Beach. I believe that they used Captain Pat's design. (Others please correct me if I am wrong.)
Based on the drawing that they sent me the overall length of the blade i6" long, maximum width 10".

In my view, it depends somewhat on the year of your 31. I had a 1969 with the smaller spade rudders. Capt. Pat's rudders were an essential upgrade. I currently have a 1977 with the larger spade rudders. Capt. Pat's rudders would be better, but in my view marginally so. They'd be an upgrade, but not essential (I haven't).

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10163&p=96679#p96679

[franzmerenda]

First thing I wish to tank You for taking the time to help me.

My boat is a 1970, originally equipped with Crusaders, upgraded in 2015 with Mercruisers.
The boat, as far as I could trial during the short leg I rode her, is sailing nice & smooth; I've just been told that with a single engine running, there's no way to let her go straight.

Assuming I'm involved in a major refitting, I do agree about the essentiality of rudders upgrade; it's out of question (even if I would love it) I may address my inquiry to some US professional propellers/rudders Service, due to shipping/custom/taxes costs and I would replicate Capt. Patrick's upgrading here (see pic ), if only I'd have exact measures (tried to find them almost everywhere).

[neil]

Another option would be to extend your existing rudders

[Carl]

If you cannot make headway on one motor I’d say a larger rudder is required.

My 1962 has the larger stock rudders and will get to 7-8mph on 1 motor. I started with small 15” wheels with the 440 gas motors and same slow speed performance with the 20”wheels and diesel motors. Running the 20” wheels cruising performance has become lackluster and I plan to extend the length a bit.

I think you’re on the right path of adding some size to your existing rudders.

Another option aside from modifying or a custom rudder is to locate a local marine foundry or marine supplier and match up their stock rudders to what you want/need. Depending on your stock Bertram rudder configuration you may have many options to choose from at less coin then full custom.

[Ironworker]

Enlarging the rudders was one of the first mods for my boat.

[DanielM]

I have a 1976 FBC bare hull in my shop that came with upgraded rudders.

I don’t know who’s design since they came with the hull when I bought it. They might be Captain Pat’s as the previous owner bought them ~20 years ago but never finished the project and he was buying all the right parts at the time he started. But they are not stock and I’m pretty sure larger than stock rudders.

They are out of the boat and I can get measurements from them if that would help you.

I’m traveling this week but could get measurements mid next week when I make it back to Texas.

[franzmerenda]

They are out of the boat and I can get measurements from them if that would help you.

I’m traveling this week but could get measurements mid next week when I make it back to Texas.

As usual, this place is perhaps the best “tool” you may have if you deal with a Bertram and more than often it’s like having a nice cold beer, with a bunch of Friends!

Thank you so much Daniel
No hurry at all: as you can see my boat is still at sketch stage

franz

[Tony Meola]

Gas or Diesel, larger rudders are a must. Makes a huge difference.

If you want to double check Danny's rudder measurements, if you do a search on the site you should find them. I did a search and found a picture of the upgraded rudders with the dimensions. Unfortunately, it will not let me repost the picture here. I just did a search by rudders and found it in the second page of the listings.

[Yannis]

For what it’s worth, mine on my 28 are significantly larger than the original in the horizontal dimension , not so much vertically, and my boat cannot ride straight on one engine.
Therefore, it doesn't just suffice to enlarge the rudders, it has to be done correctly too.

[DanielM]

Well, it looks like I might get to go back home sooner than mid-week. Going home Sunday night if the flight makes.

Trying to get in before Hurricane Beryl. Looks like she might come ashore in my back yard. She’s only projected to be cat 1 and my place is just barely inside the cone of projected landfall, so it shouldn’t be too bad.

When things settle down I’ll get some measurements.

[franzmerenda]

Well, it looks like I might get to go back home sooner than mid-week. Going home Sunday night if the flight makes.

Trying to get in before Hurricane Beryl. Looks like she might come ashore in my back yard. She’s only projected to be cat 1 and my place is just barely inside the cone of projected landfall, so it shouldn’t be too bad.

When things settle down I’ll get some measurements.

[PeterPalmieri]

I’m going to say something most people haven’t. Yes the oversized rudders are great and I can run straight with one engine now all day long. And with my old gas motors I often had a need to get home on one engine and used what we call Brews bucket technique. You hang a 5 gallon bucket off the side of the in gear motor and it keeps the boat straight.

That all being said with the small rudders the boat spins on a dime, if you are drift fishing or around the dock and put one motor in forward the bow turns without the boat moving much at all. With large rudders, bigger props and high torque diesels that turning arc becomes much wider and the boat moves further forward and back.

Steering in reverse is better with the big rudders, wasn’t even possible with the small ones.

Wouldn’t go back to small ones but I find if I’m drift fishing and kick a motor in gear the boat moves forward and could require putting the other motor in reverse to spin the ass around. Where with the small rudders. I could more easily kick the bow around.

It’s not a negative it’s just in all the years I don’t know if I’ve heard anyone talk about it and thought it worth mentioning.

[pschauss]

That all being said with the small rudders the boat spins on a dime, if you are drift fishing or around the dock and put one motor in forward the bow turns without the boat moving much at all. With large rudders, bigger props and high torque diesels that turning arc becomes much wider and the boat moves further forward and back.

i noticed that problem too after I installed the oversized rudders. After I got a bit more practice docking my boat, however, I discovered that I could get her to spin nicely by just giving a quick touch of the throttle on the engine that was in reverse.

[Rawleigh]

Daniel: I hope you made it through Beryl OK! Rawleigh

[PeterPalmieri]

i noticed that problem too after I installed the oversized rudders. After I got a bit more practice docking my boat, however, I discovered that I could get her to spin nicely by just giving a quick touch of the throttle on the engine that was in reverse.

For me it’s a very different feel, I obvious changed other stuff beyond the rudders. Just took sometime to get back into a groove.

What really got me was putting the starboard motor in gear and turning right. The rudder position before didn’t matter, now I had to create the habit of straightening out the rudders before maneuvering on the engines only.

[DanielM]

Rawleigh,

We made out reasonably well. I was in Florida and had trouble getting back home. That was stressful as my go-to folks to check on the house and shop weren’t available, so we didn’t know anything until we got back.

Fortunately, we didn’t have any damage to our home in town other than a fence down.

We had a little more damage at my shop out in the county. It’s on a creek and ~4 miles from the beach as the crow flies. With not much but a small beach town and the Brazoria National Wildlife Refuge between us and the gulf. I lost one of the fiberglass skylights in the building. It left about a 3’x8’ hole in the roof. Luckily it was in a part of the shop where the only consequence was that the rain washed off the thick protective layer of dust I keep on all my old broke-azz boats. I bet they shuddered when the water hit them, thinking “what the heck is that wet stuff”. (They’ve been in that shop too long… my monuments to ‘someday’) So a little roof damage and lots and lots of trees down at the shop. I’ve been spending plenty time on my small tractor the last couple of days.

We lost power for a few days that was a pain, but although our electric provider CenterPoint is getting dragged through the mud in the news, the power came back faster than the last couple of hurricanes and tropical storms. It seemed there was an army of linemen and trucks out. I was actually quite impressed.

I can’t complain though, quite a few of my neighbors have large 100-year-old Oak trees in their living rooms. For a Cat 1 storm there was quite a bit of damage. I’m retired from the chemical plants but I heard second hand they clocked 127 mph gusts at the site near the beach. I can’t confirm that, but it was a strong Cat 1 storm based on the damage.

BTW, I’ve walked by the rudders a few times and thought “Dang I need to get a picture” lol, but I’ve been a bit busy. I’ll get that shortly.

Thanks for asking.

[franzmerenda]

Daniel:

Nice to hear everything is fine.
It sounds impressive here in the old Continent, how you guys are able to recover from hurricanes, assuming it happens almost every year.
Honestly speaking and above all in my Country, we're not resilient to natural disasters and apart from a few severe floods and some earthquake, with no casualties, we're quite fortunate.

Take care of yourself,
francesco

[Tony Meola]

I’m going to say something most people haven’t. Yes the oversized rudders are great and I can run straight with one engine now all day long. And with my old gas motors I often had a need to get home on one engine and used what we call Brews bucket technique. You hang a 5 gallon bucket off the side of the in gear motor and it keeps the boat straight.

That all being said with the small rudders the boat spins on a dime, if you are drift fishing or around the dock and put one motor in forward the bow turns without the boat moving much at all. With large rudders, bigger props and high torque diesels that turning arc becomes much wider and the boat moves further forward and back.

Steering in reverse is better with the big rudders, wasn’t even possible with the small ones.

Wouldn’t go back to small ones but I find if I’m drift fishing and kick a motor in gear the boat moves forward and could require putting the other motor in reverse to spin the ass around. Where with the small rudders. I could more easily kick the bow around.

It’s not a negative it’s just in all the years I don’t know if I’ve heard anyone talk about it and thought it worth mentioning.

Peter

I thought it was just me. I have the 270's and find the same thing happens when I spin her around to dock. Use to spin nice and slow and tight. Now I need to give the reverse side a little more gas and she still seems to creep forward.

Mean time I have to listen to the crew ( my wife ) tell me I don't know what I am doing. LOL. I Keep telling her I have been running this boat for 49 years and now I don't know what I am doing.

I hope your crew treats you better.

[DanielM]

Francesco,

Hurricanes are just part of the deal if you live coastal in a big part of the country and the Caribbean. It’s been that way the entire 40 years I’ve been on the coast. I love being near the water so, 'it is what it is'.

We’re reasonably well prepared, and it was only a Cat 1. I’ve been lucky and haven’t seen too many major storms in my area. I feel for the folks that have.

Italy and Greece are on my 'one day' bucket list destinations. If I ever make it back to the old Continent I’ll try and stop in and see your boat once it’s past the sketch stage.

[Yannis]

Danny, my boat is way past the sketch stage LOL!!!

[franzmerenda]

Francesco,

Hurricanes are just part of the deal if you live coastal in a big part of the country and the Caribbean. It’s been that way the entire 40 years I’ve been on the coast. I love being near the water so, 'it is what it is'.

We’re reasonably well prepared, and it was only a Cat 1. I’ve been lucky and haven’t seen too many major storms in my area. I feel for the folks that have.

Italy and Greece are on my 'one day' bucket list destinations. If I ever make it back to the old Continent I’ll try and stop in and see your boat once it’s past the sketch stage.

Daniel:

As already stated with my fellow Bertram Bro Thomas, I'll be more than happy to sail with you here at Cinque Terre, if you plan to come to Italy on vacation.

As far as restoration is concerned, if plans come together, hopefully I'll have the boat in the water next Jun/Jul 2025.
I'm now very close to start with windows mould.
I tried to deal with some metal Carpenter in order to have them made out of SS, but it was way too expensive and I had to bring a disassembled boat to Carpenters shops.
If you need to move a 31 on the road here, you have to pay permits and escort, since beam exceeds 300cm; no way bringing the boat back and forth from Shipyard to Carpenter shop.



I asked then Lookout Boat Frames some estimate but, even though Rachelle Rose was very nice with me, with acrylic glasses, crate, shipping and custom fees, figures were even more expensive than SS windows, while the mould they supply now (Bayliss 31), is not as nice as the previous one



(this was the previous one)



At the end, I had old windows scanned and 'reverse engineered', while I'll have the final meeting with moulding Company this week for last details and hopefully best offer.

Honestly, I do love refurbishing boats, but I'm getting too old for this stuff and things here, in terms of Shipyards attitude and time-scheduling, are getting worse.

Anyway, like any addiction, if you are boataholic, sometimes you simply can't detox yourself...

francesco

[PeterPalmieri]

Those stainless window frames are amazing.

[Carl]

Those stainless window frames are amazing.

You got that right Peter!

Incredible amount of work machining, forming, welding, grinding, fitting and then the polishing...ugh. At least using aluminum each of the processes is a bit more forgiving and they go...I want to say goes quicker or faster, but neither are quick nor fast, maybe I'll stick with you make more headway each day with aluminum.

[Yannis]

The 28 has two lower window parts that open.
The left one I first opened when I bought the boat , removed all old foam and silicones and everything that had accumulated over the years and then I put my own insulation foam and it works perfect and doesn't drip.

The one on starboard I looked at once, realised the ordeal and…left it alone, never opened it.
Luckily it doesn't drip…

[franzmerenda]

Those stainless window frames are amazing.

I do agree Peter, but €25K plus €5K for boat transportation to Carpenter's Shop and 2/3 months without any chance to working on the boat, was too much for me.
They even made SS rubrail

[url=https://flic.kr/p/2q4xdNN]

[PeterPalmieri]

Rubrail is nice too but for me it’s that a utility piece always getting banged up. 25k installed for new windows and frames isn’t a terrible price at all. I think they want that much for the fiberglass ones when Brodorous Rose was doing it and that didn’t include installation.

[Tony Meola]

I have to agree with Peter on those stainless frames they are slick, but the fiberglass ones will look great also.

[Craig Mac]

I would be interested in seeing more pics of this stainless-steel wonder---more complete pics of the boat if available---seems like
big investment was made.

[DanielM]

Francesco,

What a beautiful area, if we ever make it over there, I’ll take you up on a sail at Cinque Terre.

Yannis,

For sure if we get to Greece, I’ll need to look you up. I need to check out the mermaid bench and learn about bow in docking. My youngest son is autistic and still lives with us and has always liked Greek Mythology. So I would be a bad father if we got that close and didn’t make Greece.

For now though, I’m stuck cleaning up and re-building my fence in 95f temps and mid 90’s humidity. Whew it’s been hot for an old guy. Post hurricane weather, I guess there are a few downsides to living in a place that has endless summer. But things are coming along ok.

[franzmerenda]

I would be interested in seeing more pics of this stainless-steel wonder---more complete pics of the boat if available---seems like
big investment was made.

Craig,

unfortunately I have few pictures of windows details, since I took them from the dock, while I was investigating on the metal shop who made the job.
I found the Artisan by accident after I took those pictures, but it seems that all these Carpenters don't have any portfolio of their projects.
The boat went sold and perhaps was the best 31 offered here in Italy last year; but I was looking for a project from scratch.

https://www.mondialbroker.com/Barca.asp ... 24d527eec7

[Yannis]

Franzesco,

I have the same motors Yanmar 4lha-stp and they are declared as 240-250hp, depending on the temperature of the fuel used; the colder the fuel the more hp produced. But 260 hp for these motors, like this ad says, I have never seen before.

[franzmerenda]

Franzesco,

I have the same motors Yanmar 4lha-stp and they are declared as 240-250hp, depending on the temperature of the fuel used; the colder the fuel the more hp produced. But 260 hp for these motors, like this ad says, I have never seen before.

Yannis,

We pay diesel €2/liter; its due gas stations here keep fuel into refrigerated tanks

By the way:
Do you know there's a 25th Anniversary for sale in your Country?

[Yannis]

Franzesco,

I didnt know about refrigerated diesel!!!

A long ago I had posted a pic on a 25th anniversary, probably still with gas engines (I gathered this from prop size), that was in my yard. I don't know what happened to it as I haven't seen it for a while. I can inquire, but this will likely happen when I return late September…
Meanwhile the only person who can effectively retrieve past data is Tony, who might give it a go if he sees this.

[franzmerenda]

Boat seems to be in quite bad shape

https://www.yachtworld.it/yacht/1986-be ... r-9180967/

[Yannis]

I think she is the one in my yard.
The name reminds me of something…Periplanisi means adventure.
I don't remember much of her shape, but she’s a 38 yo boat afterall.
I’ll make a call to my yard if you want, perhaps someone there might have additional info.
Tell me a couple of key questions you would like me to ask them and I ll gladly try to find something.

[Yannis]

Franzesco,

I called my yard and talked to someone who knew a bit about the boat.
He said she’s in good shape, the gas engines were running ok before the was put to sleep on the hard, for the last 5 years or so.
He says it may be a bit expensive due to the anniversary edition and the special tower (which Im not sure how useful it is in the Med, unless you're a tuna fisherman).
The boat is ok structurally, no major accidents of the hull but I could not verify any rot in the bulkheads or the bones under the sole.
The guy in the yard who would know more just lost his father and cannot be reached for a while…

[franzmerenda]

Yannis:
First thing thank you for your kind availability.

With a friend of mine who owns a 28




we're considering to work on a second 31, as a kind of assembly line, in order to cut all major project costs I'm bearing (rendering, modelling, moulding...).

The point is that due to some odd Italian trend, 31s are owned primarily by toffy-nosed guys (I very much hope not to be like that...)
The result of the equation is:
Ugly and expensive boats!

As far as this 25th Anniversary, the sole question would be if requested price is super firm?

THX,
franz

[Yannis]

Franz,

You know that nothing is firm in our area!
Everything can be firm and not firm simultaneously.
It depends on the hour in the day, location, weather …you know!!

Now this 28 is so god damn packed with so many items it must be slow…

I could help you in the negotiations in case you may become interested in this 25th anniversary 31.

The 31 in the Med is less practical than the 28.

ps: Aki for Akita?

[franzmerenda]

Yannis:
The pictured 28 is a gasser as well, equipped with 2 Mercs 6.2L 350hp each



And yes, AKI stays for Akita as you may notice looking at the nice lady sitting in the cockpit

A SportFish 31, with the only limitation of a proper head, in my opinion is like a veranda with an adjoining terrace, you can place wherever you'd like all around the Med

[Yannis]

Franz,

Whatever rocks your boat !
Thats why there are sooo many boat types to choose from.

However, very few yacht owners in the Med use their boats for fishing. And most of those who fish their boats, go out to show their friends and kids how their usually expensive gear performs, and fish for half an hour and then return to port or go swimming… There are very few real fishermen in yachts in the Med.

Yachts in the Med are mainly liveaboards. Im saying yachts, because all kinds of super RIBS and Axopars and the like are not yachts, they are commuters that move you fast from A to B and then, either the crew looks for a room or head back to home port within the day.
Those who buy yachts do so to use them for weekends or their yearly vacations, hence they live and cook and swim and commute in these boats.

Thats why any such boat without a proper bathroom with toilet, shower, even hot water, but also a galley, a fridge that works 24/7 without a generator, are a must. Otherwise they are just verandas, as you very rightfully call them, that are essentially day boats.

The problem is that in the day boat category, the B 31 is a bad choice. You can find cheaper, faster, more practical, more agile boats in the RIB or CC categories that beat the Bertram proposition outright.

As a parallel, you can very well use your Ferrari to go shopping downtown, but I bet you a Citroen Ami electric does THIS job much better!

[DanielM]

Franz,

Here are some pictures of the rudders that came with the 1976 hull in my shop.

Sorry for taking so long. Cleaning up from Hurricane Beryl took longer than I thought and I’ve been crossing Texas by car (11 hr. drive) dealing with some family issues and got way behind on stuff. That and I had to figure out how to post pictures.

I hope they show up.

BTW, I don’t know how these compare to stock rudders. I was surprised that there was a little variance between the two so I got pictures of both.


Here is a link to Captain Pat’s discussion on rudders from the old section on his Custom B31 parts. He gives approximate area measurements in the description that might help you as well.

https://bertram31.com/parts/rudders/index.html

[DanielM]

[DanielM]

[DanielM]

[DanielM]

Sorry for the imperial units. I looked for my tape with metric units but couldn’t find it.

[franzmerenda]

Sorry for the imperial units. I looked for my tape with metric units but couldn’t find it.

Sorry for the Imperial units?!?
Thank YOU for spending your time to help me with these more than accurate measures!
I'm grateful, but not surprised since it's the Faithfuls Signature
francesco

[Pete Fallon]

Franz,
Do a site search on the board, I posted a reply back in June of 2019 about rudder dimensions and performance of a 1961 31Express that I repowered in the late 2007's.
Pete Fallon

[franzmerenda]

I'll do for sure.
Thank you Pete!