Yanmar 230 hp Trouble

[Anthony]

I have yanmar 230 in my 31 express they have been in about 10 years with little trouble. Now port engine smokes heavy black smoke above 2200 rpm and will not reach full rpm only gets 3000. I pulled the injectors and had them checked and there is plenty of boost. I think it may be a fuel problem somewhere. any help would be appreciated.
Anthony

[Harry Woods]

Anthony,
Sounds to me that the turbo is siezed. Pull the air cleaner assembly and see if you can rotate the turbo shaft freely in both directions. If it is stuck, spray WD-40 in the turbo and gently try to free it up by turning to the left (loosen). This way, the worst you can do is loosen the nut and not sheer it off. If it is free, take a sea trial with the air cleaner off and see if the turbo spins as you get the motor gets up to speed. If you can not free it up, I posted a New Jersey site a few years ago that sells brand new turbo's less the housing for about $900. If you call a mechanic to rebuild the turbo you are probable in the 3 grand range.
Let me know how you make out.
Harry

[Rawleigh]

Harry: Can you get a rebuild kit like I did for my Ford diesel 6.0 pickup? I rebuilt my truck turbo which has variable vanes for less than $300 last year. Of course I got to it before anything had crashed into the sides of the housing. Not much in there really other than split ring oil seals. bushings and a thrust bearing. Are these turbos water cooled? That could add a layer of complication.

[Kevin]

http://www.sbmar.com/articles/understan ... eshooting/

I thought this was a pretty good trouble shooting article.

[Harry Woods]

Rawleigh,
This company was located in New Jersey and supplied a wide variety of makes and model new turbo's. I posted it for a member from PR who had a similar problem on his B28. I cannot find the information. I think Dug also had similar problems about that time.
Harry

[Bruce]

black smoke sounds like lack of air flow or something loading up the engine like a rope around the prop.
Like has been said remove air intake, take your finger and see if the turbo spins. Be very careful running with it off. If it does spin anything that gets close gets sucked in. If turbo is frozen, make sure you don't have a leaky elbow issue and any good turbo shop should be able to repair. No housing rebuilds were around 800.00 to 1200.00 at the shop I used. I could by new from Yanmar for 3k.

If the crappy foam filter has been allowed to deteriorate its possible that the inner cooler is partially clogged. a pressure check before and after the cooler will tell you. Also a broken or loose clamp on turbo oulet to intake hose will reduce boost pressure and black smoke.

[Anthony]

Thank you for all the help What I did do was swap the turbos to see if the problem followed it did not. I swapped the props put on 20x20 3 blade. I was able to reach 3400+ on each motor and cleared up much of the smoke. I was running 20x20 4blade with cup. port would turn 3400 and stbd turn 3000 which confused me. Speed with the 3 blade is 20.5k with a full load much slower than with the 4 blade. I am going to send the props out to get checked maybe one is out although it did not vibrate. What size props are most people running with 2-1 gear ratio.
Anthony

[mike ohlstein]

I think that you can go 20X22 or 21X21, and still put a good cup in the prop.

[Anthony]

Mike Is there that much of a difference in rpm between 3blade and 4 blade.
Anthony

[mike ohlstein]

Yes. The four blade presents much more drag, and is harder to spin. It's a smoother ride, but slower. It also throws a different wake than the three blade. I personally prefer the three blade for fishing because I like its wake and wash.

While I can spin a 21X23 three blade, I can only spin a 20X20 four blade.

[SteveM]

Reviving this thread with an inquiry about my Turbo. I have a Yanmar 6LP. The starboard engine turbo froze. I was able to move it with a 13mm socket and this got it running nicely today. The boat had sat on the lift for a few months from late summer till now.

Two questions:

1. What type of spray is recommended to keep these in good shape and not corrode? I have read a little online Wynns spec sheet looks good.

2. Could I have a leak in the system that would cause this? I see that Bruce mentioned a leaky elbow. This is the 2nd time I've had the starboard turbo freeze up. A few years ago it happened, I brought it to the fella in North Palm Beach who rebuilds them. He said it was shot and to just buy a new one as it would cost about the same. With this happening again on the same starboard engine, I'm thinking that something may be causing it to corrode in place possibly. I'd be glad to solve it with regular turbo cleaning that's simple.

Thanks!

[Tony Meola]

Steve

It sounds like you have moisture getting into the Turbo. There is an outfit on the west coast that sells Stainless elbows and mixers for Yanmar much cheaper than buying Yanmar. My friend put them on his boat. They are pretty sweet.

You should be able to pull the turbo and see corrosion inside of them. Is the blower freezing up or is the waste gate sticking?

[SteveM]

Tony,
The fan blower is freezing up.

Thanks for your advice.

Steve

[Carl]

Spraying stuff on the turbo to stop corrosion is masking a problem, the turbo should not be seeing moisture to corrode.

Two turbos freezing up on one side does raise eyebrows, but you offered little info as to why the last turbo froze up. Was it seeing seawater and corroding or something non related like internal issues. Take a look at the article and its pictures and compare to what you saw and are now seeing. If the turbo is seeing water, it is important to find out where it’s coming from and fix it before you find yourself buying a new turbo or worse.


https://www.sbmar.com/articles/what-a-m ... inspected/

[Tony Meola]

Steve

If you need Yanmar Turbos my friend got his from these guys in California. They are OEM.

https://turboturbos.com/

He purchased his stainless-steel elbows from these guys.

https://hdimarine.net/

He has has nothing but good things to say about both of them.

[Bruce]

Usually when the blades freeze up on Yanmar turbos its the housing around the blades that expands from rust and stops the blades. If its not bad, you can free them up. Yanmar elbows can be an issue. Best to replace them every 5 to 6 years.

[SteveM]

Carl, Thanks for the link, I will read the article. I agree, having it happen on the same side is suspect.

Tony, I believe I spoke to that guy, he was helpful. He suggested I let the engines run for 10-15 seconds with no water intake at the end of using the boat. Said it would force air through and dry it out a bit.

Thanks Bruce. I was able to get it moving with a socket wrench and exercised it a bit. Then ran the boat and checked again. They spun up freely.
Sprayed them with WD40 after I put the boat on the lift.

[Carl]

If you go that route, keep in mind impellors do not like running dry for very long.

[S Ritzert]

Steve,

Go through Tony Athens sight, and check out all the exhaust system designs in his "Tonys Tips" section. I have not seen very many boats with a properly designed exhaust system myself. I purchased my 31 knowing that the exhaust system needs updated, and I am in the process of getting that squared away now. I have 6lya-stp's for my setup. Both turbos have seen saltwater, and both are corroded heavily. I can reach max rated rpm in neutral (3800), and max rpm (3300) in gear. I know without a doubt the props are way to big for this boat (1.75:1 and propped with 4 blade 22 x 24 x 1.75) I have extremely high egt's, and the turbos will not spool up until about 2100 rpm. I also know that the turbos don't have much life left in them because of the corrosion.

Anyway, the point of the story, If you are going to spend the money on turbos, spend the money getting your exhaust right. My turbos are 2800 each from turbos turbos. I am building the exhaust system and mixers myself, and probably have about 1,200 to 1,500 in materials. As soon as I figure out a good way to post pictures, I will post some on here. Maybe it will help someone out one day.

[S Ritzert]

rusted out turbo from poor exhaust design causing salt water ingestion

[S Ritzert]

This is my current exhaust design. This allows salt water into the exhaust side of the turbo when the boat rocks.

[S Ritzert]

this is my new exhaust design (basically copied from "shooter")

[Carl]

Looks great! What is the plans for the shower head?


When I did mine I did not want to lose all that room by going up and over like your starboard side does, so did a dry riser with shower head like your port side. It was tight, but it fit and I now I get to keep all that real estate to play around the motors.


It is almost funny that the port side has the dump positioned correctly for water to flow and drain away from turbo...but its so close to waterline even with surge protectors...I do see them, right? Then on the starboard side the waterline is a good way away from the turbo, but the dump is pretty much horizontal so water draining after motor is off...could run to turbo. Plus if the riser starts to leak near turbo, where I'd expect to see water sitting and exposed to heat the most to degrade...it gets to leak into the turbo. So close with so much work, but not quite a great design.

NICE!

[S Ritzert]

Carl,

Yes, both sides have surge tubes, then those go into a 5" centek muffler. I am doing away with the surge tubes, and using a 6" centek mightymax muffler. I debated surge tubes, no muffler, or no surge tubes and a muffler, and finally made a decision based on making space in the engine compartment.

Mixers are 4" for the dry side, and 6" od for the wet side. I will have a 1 1/2" off set water inlet to help with a swirl effect, I made a flared spraying for the end of the dry run, so when water hits that flare from the outside, it will essentially cause water to spray outward. Hopefully that all makes sense. I will post pictures when I finish getting everything tack welded. The mixers straight down vertical

Here is my spray ring

[Bruce]

Yanmar came out and inspected the exhaust on Steve's boat to qualify for warrantee coverage along with other things.

[Carl]

Shoot me down, but inspection for warranty is not taking into account if dumps leak water back towards the motor n turbo as that is a maintenance issue on the owner. Are they contemplating the odd wave with quirky roll n pitch of the boat that could possibly send seawater splashing back towards the motor or are they verifying the dump height above water level meets the specification.


I won’t know as my motors are a tad bit beyond warranty so didn’t get to go over my install with the manufacturer representative. From manual checklist I found the height over waterline to dump as marginal and didn’t like the back pressure so made risers with larger diameter configured for freer flow with 45° instead of 90° bends after mixing.

Will all that work prevent water from getting back to the turbo? I say yes. What I do not know is would the stock dump setup that met manufacturers requirements allowed water intrusion from a leak or an odd funky wave, pitch, roll N splash. I’ll never know but couldn’t rule out the possibility.

Surge tubes…do they work? Maybe and aside from extra work n cost I could not find a downside of having them, so made n installed.

I do know my turbos did see water/moisture as they have corrosion at the turbo output flange. They are tight n develop proper boost, but have to wonder if prior Coast Guard boat that ran the motors had the proper setup…I’d think they would have.



Anyway, design of your risers looks great!

I thought about going with a flared fitting inside to spray n cool. I just could not wrap my head around what the spray pattern would be like at different rpm’s n water flows. My concern was low flow at idle may not build enough pressure to fully ungulf the nozzle creating hot spots. Tightening up on the space would take care of that, but would it restrict high flow, would it clog like the old Crusader gas dumps did.

I think too much, I’m sure it would have been fine but went with holes as I found a chart with hole size and quantity based on size of dump. I used that, found it coincided with the larger stock dumps and aftermarket shower heads than tested in the sink. I did the offset inlet as well to swirl water flow around the shower head to cool it plus I hoped it would better distribute with low pressure.
In the sink low pressure had water in separate streams all around, increased pressure had streams turn to spray. I guess it was good, but glad shower head pointed down as an angle did flow more water out the bottom….then again I don’t know water flow of sink compared to raw water pump at idle. Yeah, I can overthink.

[Bruce]

Carl,
They had a list of do and don'ts when they came out and inspected a new install for warrantee coverage. We also knew while we could prevent most rouge mishaps, you can't cover them all 100% of the time. Material fails.

Yanmar, Cummins and others I did were pretty strict on water line location vs engine outlet location and minimums. Not everyone wanted an up and over exhaust or could afford the extra cost. You as an individual can do what you want. A business has to do what the customer can afford within the warrantee parameters of what the manufacturer will tolerate.

Even stainless wet exhaust elbows rot out, saw it all the time. The rule of thumb for gas engine elbow replacements were 4 years. After that you were playing the odds of water ingestion.

Yanmars main problem I came to recognize at the end of my run in 2010 was the cast elbows were expendable and the turbo housings just from the exhaust being open to the moist salt air would start to flake. Not sure what they or the turbo manufacturer use for material composition back then or now.
We discussed it at dealer meetings but nothing ever came of it. That may have changed but I've out of the game since 2010.

[Carl]

Thank you for clarifying Bruce.

Stock setups have to be good or the manufacturer would be out of business honoring constant warranties. I'd also believe they have a cutoff point where the design is "good enough". If they didn't, pricing would go through the roof and products would never hit the shelves trying to chase "better". I think Uncle Vic said it best, "the enemy of good is better".

High and dry stops me from kicking myself if the rare occurrence happened to me. I have found myself very fortunate in having issues that make techs go...hmm, haven't seen this happen before and I've seen alot.

I think many of us here are stuck with only better is good enough. I know I spent a good amount of time and energy trying to lower the motors and flatten out the running gear angle to 11 degrees from the stock 15 degrees. I know it is better to have the propulsion running in line with the direction of the boat, but how much better? Has anyone run their boat at 15 degrees, then left everything as is, except to modify the shaft angle to 11 degrees then compare the numbers? Not that I know of...so how much do we gain from "better". I did find information that put some numbers to the good and better. Between 5 and 15 degrees there is some benefit, but only 2% according to the info on the linked info. Going beyond 15 degrees the gain drops drastically as prop stops loading even. Anyway, the chart references performance loss, or gain in the other direction, but does not pinpoint what "performance" is being measured. In any case, 2% was worth the effort for me, I'll take the free trip every couple fill ups.

http://www.ricepropulsion.com/TNLS/Shaft_Angles.htm


A percent of two gain by itself is not a lot of improvement, but a 2% shaft angle gain, 2% for better props, 2% for better exhaust flow, 2% for boat diet, 2% cool air intake, 2% for clean flat bottom and running gear...it can all add up to significant, especially over time used.

[SteveM]

Thanks for all the responses and education. In reading the Yanmar Operations Guide and other Yanmar PDF's I found they have a High Riser Mixing Elbow as an option. Couldn't find a part number, but I emailed Daryl for any info on this option. From the drawings I see it appears to be a factory option similar to what you guys did. You can see it in the drawing here. It is noted as Riser Mixing Elbow Option. Another document footnotes is as an option to the stander "L" mixing elbow. https://www.yanmar.com/media/global/com ... asheet.pdf

[Carl]

Steve-

I made my riser and shower head for 3 reasons.

1st- Increase the height of the exhaust outlet above the waterline reducing the risk of seawater backing up into the motor.

2nd- Larger diameter pasage to reduce back pressure. To some degree "possibly" scavenge exhaust for better performance.

3rd- Remove the water-cooled jacket to eliminate the possibility of the jacket leaking back into the turbo and motor.


I "think" the optional Yanmar Riser only addresses the first issue of height, ( I guess that's why its called a Riser).

The riser looks to be water-cooled as it has a raw water hose connected right on TOP. I assume is it sea water, but even if coolant, it is sitting in a passage above the motor n turbo. If there is liquid there it can leak and where does it leak...down into turbo, motor. Sure new its great, but add extreme heat from the exhaust, put in a salt salt water environment, add some pressure, maybe a bad casting, bad weld if welded or just slow corrosion...if it leaks its going into turbo or worse the motor. The other down-side is till you remove and pressure test the riser your in the dark as to its condition...or opt to just change it every few years like gas motor risers.


A dry riser like many of us are doing does have the benefit of removing water/coolant from leaking back into an expensive turbo and/or motor, but that comes with a price. No cooling means that Riser gets HOT, VERY HOT!. So hot it needs to be well insulated and that is why the wraps/jackets/blankets are seen covering them. If not insulated there is a fire hazard. Even if insulated, should a petroleum product get sprayed on it from say a cracked high-pressure fuel line, a turbo oil leak, gear oil leak there is a potential for fire.
Yes, the covers are made to stop fluids from getting in...but age, heat, abrasion, and owner-dismissing upkeep happens. So like water-cooled Elbows and Risers are not supposed to leak, heat jackets are not supposed to leak, but they can and do.

[SteveM]

thanks for the explanation Carl.

I have been reading manuals and looking at drawings of the Yanamar parts. It appears that the riser is a 2nd piece, some call it a bend that is added first. Then the regular elbow on top of it. See drawing at this website: https://yanmarshop.com/en-GB/catalog/al ... -bend-assy

I'm cross referencing that with the stainless parts available from HDI Marine. It looks like he simply makes reproductions in stainless. https://hdimarine.net/product/hot1-kit/

I can appreciate your custom setup greatly. However, I don't see how I could build that myself as I don't have welding experience. And where I live in the Bahamas, there is not that skill set either. I will continue to research and learn. I appreciate all the input, advice and education greatly.

[Carl]

Much better pictures...the riser itself looks to be dry with a heat shield on the Yanmar and a Heat shield and Insulation Cover on the HDI.

So yes that does increase the distance between waterline and exhaust outlet and being dry it cannot leak water from the surrounding jacket, that is good.
The down side is the water cooled Elbow sits on top of the riser which has the potential to leak...I'm sure you see where the leak could go.

That said, what problem are you trying to fix? If I recall the turbo was frozen, you freed it up by wrenching on it some. Did you see heavy corrosion at the turbo, a possible leak from the elbow? Is water backing up from the exhaust sytem because its too low to the waterline?

If only a little rusting was present and you cleared it, maybe that is enough aside from verifing the elbows are in good condition. From what Bruce said the techs said the height passed muster.

If other we can defeintely work on making good enough better to best...

Toss a leaking water cooled elbow on a new riser its still going to leak.


Stock systems worked for many people, some of us including me are working on "better" that enemy of good. We went down that rabbit hole to get the motors low for a reduced shaft angle...that low brought our motors exhaust closer to the waterline increaseing the need for risers.

Just saying, sometimes it's not the best thing to fix what is not broke.

[SteveM]

Carl, yeah...that's kinda where my head is at now on this. I appreciate all the feedback.