Playroom Build Thread

Sriver43 · Post by **Sriver43** » May 1st, '23, 15:35

Howdy all. Myself and forum user dognduck picked up a Bert 31 late August of 2021. We probably should have done this earlier but have since decided to post a build thread including photos and the story in the hopes of getting good advice and encouragement from you folks. SO here we go.

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » May 1st, '23, 15:36

Bring it on!!

Sriver43 · Post by **Sriver43** » May 1st, '23, 15:50

My buddy dognduck has wanted a Bertram 31 as long as i have known him. I had a 24ft center console I had just sold and I’m the type of person that would rather eat ramen noodles for weeks on end rather than not have a boat. I had just bought an old fixer upper house and had my first kid so wasn’t in financial condition to get something turn key.

We got a phone call from another friend and Bertram 31 owner about a boat that had been on the market for a little while. This boat was available but was getting zero traction and the owner had to get rid of it as he needed the space on his lift. We got the phone call that Monday and went to see the boat that same day. Engines fired up and ran, the gel coat was trash but the price point was compelling. So we made an offer that day and got the deal done, drove the boat home under her own power after the check cleared.

C4C3295A-3F1C-4054-AEC1-294CFCB53178 by Cole Allsopp, on Flickr

Sriver43 · Post by **Sriver43** » May 1st, '23, 15:58

We drove the boat up to the fuel dock, took on some fuel and then ran 12 miles back to where we are keeping her. She ran flawlessly no issues. Got to my in-laws house where my entire family including mom, wife, daughter, and in-laws were hanging at the pool. Upon arrival we naively encourage everyone to climb on board and we will go for a ride. Got 10ft off the dock and temps on the port motor are climbing, next thing we know it’s overheating with coolant turning to steam. Got the boat safely back to the dock and found the culprit was a roasted impeller. Classic.

F11438F7-725A-4859-B665-D974DF57DA8E by Cole Allsopp, on Flickr

Sriver43 · Post by **Sriver43** » May 1st, '23, 17:36

For those curious the boat is a 1971 FBC. She had a repower from whatever the originals were to mercruiser 350s at some point in 90s. Had the fuel tank changed to aluminum 200 gal ten years ago or so.

I cant remember what the hour meters say or even if they are working. Dognduck can turn a wrench at a pretty high level so he did all the usual. Fluid change, plugs, wires, filters, etc. We couldn’t get the starboard motor running right. Turned out the timing was pretty far off and he got that dialed in.

The port motor has a loud TSK TSK sound. Seems likely it will turn into a bag of rocks at some point here soon. At the moment it still running reasonably well and here we are about to splash her for the 2023 season.

When the fuel tank was replaced the back deck was replaced with marine ply painted a sort of yellow color with non skid. The front of the deck was cornered off with two pieces of aluminum angle joined under the starboard engine box. Just aft of the aluminum angle piece the deck was rotting and sagging. THe deck was also rotting and sagging under the port engine box.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » May 1st, '23, 20:53

Best of luck. If you have been lurking, then you know the guys here like pictures.

Hopefully we see some pics as you move through the renovations.

Looks like you took the soft top off of her. Are you going to replace it or put it back up?

Sriver43 · Post by **Sriver43** » May 2nd, '23, 05:36

Pics here from the day we bought her.

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5129C552-2D3F-48A7-9E83-DF2F611AA4DE

Sriver43 · Post by **Sriver43** » May 2nd, '23, 05:45

Thanks Tony. I’m realizing now i didn’t take nearly as many photos as I should have.

The boat came with the T top you see from the previous owner. We have since removed it and replaced it with a Bimini. We are awaiting an eisenglass enclosure on three sides as well. Should be installed in the next couple of weeks.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » May 2nd, '23, 06:39

Welcome and best of luck with your new to you boat!

The wood Bulkheads and deck supports are common problems needing to be replaced. Can be labor intensive, but not overly pricey if the investment is with elbow grease. When I replaced mine the boat was 40 years old...not bad in my opinion making the option of just replacing it with marine ply for the bulkhead and oak for cockpit supports as was stock was a good option. I kept bulkheads stock with a heavy coat of resin over and opted for fiberglass structural for cockpit supports.

My boat being older had a marine ply deck covered in Nautilex. I think it looked good for multiple years, changed a couple times, but found a used glass deck, refurbed and installed for little money. The Nautilex is the same stuff on your cabin floor, comes in different patterns and colors. This year I changed the cabin floor to faux teak. It looks fake as it should as it is, but adds warmth, nice on the feet, not slippery when barefoot n wet either. Also it didn't break the bank.

Tsk Tsk on the motors...I had a similar sound and was my distributor. Inside the motor box it seemed worse then it was.

Anyway, the boat looks good and if running well some upgrades and maintenance can be had for little money and on short time. Me, its what I've been doing for years...keep it running reliably, tackle a cosmetic upgrade here and there and enjoy.

...again, welcome. Great info here to be had for the asking ranging from my quick budget fixes to full-blown professional quality restorations.

Snipe · Post by **Snipe** » May 2nd, '23, 07:52

Good luck with the boat and all the projects. There is a ton of useful information here Keep the pictures coming. Mine looks to be very similar when I bought it and have enjoyed all the work I have done.

JeremyD · Post by **JeremyD** » May 2nd, '23, 08:28

Well - your windows look they are in much better shape than mine - I just did the rear cockpit deck and engine boxes -

I also remade the deck between the engines ~ working on the dash now -

Carl · Post by **Carl** » May 2nd, '23, 10:01

Snipe wrote: ↑May 2nd, '23, 07:52 and have enjoyed all the work I have done.

Jason- - If you want more "enjoyment", I have a boat with enough work to make you ecstatic for a good while.

LOL

I guess I enjoyed the work too, at least the work I did get to. Well, more so the feeling of satisfaction after the task was completed and working as it should. But I think I could have felt quite happy having it done by signing a check. Definitely less itching...I don't miss the fiberglass grinding and sanding.

Sriver43 · Post by **Sriver43** » May 2nd, '23, 10:26

Thank you all for your well wishes. Our top priority is to keep using the boat as much as possible during the season. We put quite a few hours on her last year despite the fuel prices. Projects will get done over the winter without compromising use time during summer months. With that said we got a little behind on the bottom job and she is still out of the water at the moment.

Ironworker · Post by **Ironworker** » May 2nd, '23, 17:25

Cole,

You've got a really decent boat of which to start your project. My advice is for you and your buddy to figure out where you want to end up when its all over with before you start any meaningful work. Don't waste money on stuff that doesn't move your boat towards that goal.

neil · Post by **neil** » May 2nd, '23, 18:37

You have a real gem in front of you,good luck with whatever road you choose,if you are going to keep the boat for forever like the rest of us do put a pair of cumming in there you will never regret i

Carl · Post by **Carl** » May 3rd, '23, 06:13

neil wrote: ↑May 2nd, '23, 18:37 You have a real gem in front of you,good luck with whatever road you choose,if you are going to keep the boat for forever like the rest of us do put a pair of cumming in there you will never regret i

Going from small block to Cummins is no small chunk of change even if motors were free. Not to mention all the ancillary work going from lightweight gas to heavy. low revving high torque diesel. Replacement of "A" small block would/could be easily found and replaced IF the single questionable motor developed terminal issues.

In any case, always good to put every idea out there and see what sticks. Me, I was set on using our boat each season, with upgrades and little tasks during, then A project each off-season. The Boat had to be reliable, safe, and within the budget of a growing family not willing to take a loan or pull money from the bank to fund.

All in all, if your going to put money into a boat, this is a good one for that as it's the one boat you may see "some" of it back, if the urge to sell came to be.

trace elements · Post by **trace elements** » May 3rd, '23, 12:19

When you say 350s for power I assume you mean small blocks? If so, how does the boat run with the small blocks?

dognduck · Post by **dognduck** » May 3rd, '23, 13:49

trace elements wrote: ↑May 3rd, '23, 12:19 When you say 350s for power I assume you mean small blocks? If so, how does the boat run with the small blocks?

It runs better than I thought. 260 HP 1.5 ratio trans with 15" pitch props. 3000 rpm gets us 21 knots for cruise. We are looking to up the hp on the small blocks when we rebuild (which we need to do badly) which would allow us to put in some more pitch. Hoping to get to 310-320hp and cruise at 3k rpms at 26 knots. Any one else have experience with small blocks? Is it worth going from 1.5:1 to a 2:1 ratio in the gears?

Amberjack · Post by **Amberjack** » May 3rd, '23, 14:03

Cole, your Bertram 31 is uncannily similar to Amberjack when I purchased it oh, maybe 28 years ago. 1969 Sportcruiser, Nautiflex cabin sole, plywood cockpit, all that cloudy walnut plastic laminate on the cabinetry, worn gas engines. Even my dinette was original like yours. All these years later, as Carl, using the boat every summer and doing one or two projects over the winter it is a different boat and more to my taste. On the other hand I could have retired 10 years earlier with the money I put into it. Still, it was a pleasure to step aboard yesterday in sparkling spring weather, turn the keys and have the engines fire right up when I went out to commission the autopilot.

As others have advised, take your time and think well ahead about any changes or improvements. You want them to last and not have to do over later on.

You mentioned the gelcoat was trashed. Bertram 31's have a thick gelcoat layer on the hull. Unless something has worn it over time (doubtful) it can be comfortably buffed with rubbing compound and waxed. Mine seemed almost porous and really absorbed the wax but after a couple years it gleamed and a coat of good wax now lasts the whole season.

In retrospect aside from repowering and replacing the cockpit, both big ticket items, one of the best upgrades I did was to paint the interior bulkheads white and install teak finishes on the cabinets and drawer fronts. Then installed teak and holly floors. That really lifted the whole mood of the interior and is something that is mostly owner's labor.

Sriver43 · Post by **Sriver43** » May 3rd, '23, 14:03

Thanks Reveryone. We appreciate the advice and the forum has been invaluable thusfar even with the limited amount we have done.

We have had many long intense discussions on priorities for a limited budget. The gelcoat is in terrible condition and worn completely through in many places. In order to keep my wife happy the aesthetics of the boat need to improve. With that said the motors are far from being as reliable as we would like them to be and those will be the first things that get addressed.

We have decided just to yank the existing small blocks out and have them remanned. This will get done next winter (2023-2024) so we need to limp the motors through the summer. Dognduck (johnny) can do the labor to remove them and there is a local machine shop that will do the rest. We have discussed trying to find diesels at length but determined that the price point of the motors plus the changes in the driveline that need to happen would be way over our budget. We could probably even just get two new small blocks for the cost of one diesel.

Some of the small block rehabs we have seen are putting out 320hp or so at the crank, which seems perfect for our application. Fuel economy is not ideal but we mostly putter around the harbor anyways.

Couple issues;
THe throttle linkage needs to be addressed. THe boat currently tops out at 27 mph and 3k rpms. THe port throttle goes all the way to the dash and the starboard one becomes useless after 3/4 throttle. We have the MT-2 throttles which we have been told are completely obsolete. If anyone has the MT3 dual action dual lever throttles laying around we would be happy to purchase them as the new ones are reasonably expensive (for us).

One of the most attractive features of the boat for me was the standup head. My wife is not really a boat person and the more comfortable i can make her the better my life is. With that said the boat came with the raritan pump toilet and no black water tank. Pipe runs straight out the through hull. We have every interest in being completely legal at all times and will be installing a tank. I would also be curious to know what is the best, most comfortable, user friendly Marine toilet. I mean literally the best. Budget is not a factor. The vacu-flush heads i have seen seem to be great, just not sure where to put the extra pump/tank and if they are as reliable as something like a raritan elegance.

Push button is a must.

Thanks all for your insight and help!

This is the only pic i have that shows the aluminum angle piece and the rotting deck. Also me having a great time

Amberjack · Post by **Amberjack** » May 3rd, '23, 15:47

I know it’s hard to do but just forget about fuel prices and how much you’re spending to fill the tank. In the scheme of things it’s a surprisingly small part of the cost of owning a boat and always money well spent. Easy for me to say in retrospect now the kids are out of the nest and money is easier. Do I sometimes take a shorter trip when prices are way up? Yes. Do I worry about $0.20/gallon? No, it’s only $20 on a 100 gallon fill up.

I agree, the stand up head makes life much more enjoyable when boating with family. We replaced our marine toilet with a Groco manual flush toilet and plumbed it to the original fiberglass holding tank fitted for dockside pump out and also with a T-12 for over the side discharge when we get enough north that there are no longer any dock pump stations.

I misspoke earlier. Amberjack is a fly bridge cruiser, not a sport cruiser and just about identical to Terminator. Don’t know where that misnomer came from.

neil · Post by **neil** » May 3rd, '23, 19:44

Doug your interior looks great I love the simplicity

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » May 3rd, '23, 20:28

Cole

Those that use the vacu flush toilets put the pump behind the refrigerator. Believe it or not there is a ton of space back there. I have my 9 gallon holding tank outboard of the starboard engine. My wing on the engines are still removable since my box's are original. To get that in and out I need to remove the wing, or I would need to pull the heat exchanger on my cummins.

Ironworker · Post by **Ironworker** » May 4th, '23, 08:20

I built my floors out of 1/2" coosa and it was one of the easier jobs that I did on the boat. I added gutters which was a little more complex but I left of the side panels to gain room for gaffs and harpoons. Rot will not get any better.

Sriver43 · Post by **Sriver43** » May 4th, '23, 08:31

Doug that boat does look great. Totally agree on the fuel/use being the priority. Fortunately living in Annapolis means we are not going very far when we do use the boat. Not doing offshore fishing trips or anything like that (yet).

What is the stove you have installed there? Is that a chimney that pops up through the bridge as well? Any chance you can send the make/model?

Ironworker · Post by **Ironworker** » May 4th, '23, 12:16

Cole,

In Jason's thread you mentioned that you were interested in my engine boxes.

Rick,

Here is to hoping I qualify as a good home. A friend of mine and I bought a 1971 bert 31 in really rough shape. We are rehabbing her on an extremely tight budget, both in our thirties i have a young family. Our engine boxes could certainly stand to be replaced. Are yours stock measurements? We have small blocks. Let me know if you are indeed willing to part with them and I will make everything else easy!

Thanks for your consideration.

Regards

Cole

You are indeed qualified as a good home. I have some other stuff specifically for a 31 that I'll give you as well. Send me a PM with your phone # and I'll go through the list with you. The stuff is in South Carolina at my home which is just below Charleston.

If you're interested in those and some other stuff that I have, I have a buddy that has his sailboat at my dock in SC. He is going to be moving it up to Rhode Island or CT in the next couple of weeks. I may be able to convince him to haul them up for you.

Amberjack · Post by **Amberjack** » May 4th, '23, 13:18

Sriver43 wrote: ↑May 4th, '23, 08:31
What is the stove you have installed there? Is that a chimney that pops up through the bridge as well? Any chance you can send the make/model?

It is a Dickinsen diesel range and yes that is a Charley Noble. Still in production and you can find the specs on their website. The new ones have aluminum cooktops. Mine has a bronze cooktop which I should have polished before taking the picture. Being in the Northwest we have had diesel ranges in all our boats: 48' bridge deck cruiser, 52' sailboat-both liveaboards- and now the Bertram. The diesel ranges on the liveaboards ran 24/7 nine months of the year and were our primary heat. We use the Dickinsen on our Bertram at anchor during cold weather and even on the lowest setting we need to open the companionway to keep the boat livable. Making cinnamon rolls is a great way to pass the time on a rainy day. I also insulated under the cabin sole and on top of the overhead so the boat is much cozier. The range feeds from an 18 gallon tank under the cabin sole and I burn kerosene for cleaner combustion.

Tony touched on it. There is a lot of space under the galley counter behind the sink and the drawers. In Amberjack at least that counter top can be lifted up and out. It's a chore but I've done it twice. Wouldn't want to put anything in there that needs maintenance. We used some of that space by fabricating a drop in that holds all our plates, bowls, coffee cups and a butane stove top burner. The drop in unit lifts out and gives me access to the galley plumbing.

Sriver43 · Post by **Sriver43** » May 4th, '23, 13:43

Ironworker wrote: ↑May 4th, '23, 12:16 Cole,

In Jason's thread you mentioned that you were interested in my engine boxes.

Rick,

Here is to hoping I qualify as a good home. A friend of mine and I bought a 1971 bert 31 in really rough shape. We are rehabbing her on an extremely tight budget, both in our thirties i have a young family. Our engine boxes could certainly stand to be replaced. Are yours stock measurements? We have small blocks. Let me know if you are indeed willing to part with them and I will make everything else easy!

Thanks for your consideration.

Regards

Cole

You are indeed qualified as a good home. I have some other stuff specifically for a 31 that I'll give you as well. Send me a PM with your phone # and I'll go through the list with you. The stuff is in South Carolina at my home which is just below Charleston.

If you're interested in those and some other stuff that I have, I have a buddy that has his sailboat at my dock in SC. He is going to be moving it up to Rhode Island or CT in the next couple of weeks. I may be able to convince him to haul them up for you.

Thanks Rick. Sent you a PM.

dognduck · Post by **dognduck** » May 4th, '23, 15:36

Does any one run a Webasto Diesel heater? If so, how is it exhausted?

John F. · Post by **John F.** » May 4th, '23, 18:42

Cole-

Sorry I missed this thread until now. I live and my boat is docked right across the Bay on Kent Island. I think I know your boat/previous owner--Jim B. If so, the tank is a Patriot Marine 230 gallon tank. Jim and I bought the tanks together when all the ethanol stuff was happening. His boat ran really well with small blocks and there was a lot of room to work on them. Nice boat.

John

trace elements · Post by **trace elements** » May 5th, '23, 09:30

dognduck wrote: ↑May 4th, '23, 15:36 Does any one run a Webasto Diesel heater? If so, how is it exhausted?

Curious about this also. I want to install one for striper season. Also going to install a bus heater running off engine water.

Sriver43 · Post by **Sriver43** » May 5th, '23, 09:58

John F. wrote: ↑May 4th, '23, 18:42 Cole-

Sorry I missed this thread until now. I live and my boat is docked right across the Bay on Kent Island. I think I know your boat/previous owner--Jim B. If so, the tank is a Patriot Marine 230 gallon tank. Jim and I bought the tanks together when all the ethanol stuff was happening. His boat ran really well with small blocks and there was a lot of room to work on them. Nice boat.

John

John,

Thanks for the note, that interesting. Would you happen to know the year that gone done?

John F. · Post by **John F.** » May 5th, '23, 12:07

Spring 2009

Amberjack · Post by **Amberjack** » May 5th, '23, 13:48

dognduck wrote: ↑May 4th, '23, 15:36 Does any one run a Webasto Diesel heater? If so, how is it exhausted?

A friend with a 28 installed a Wallas Nordic DT and has been happy with it. The Nordic DT mounts as a countertop unit which can function as a cooktop with lid up or forced air blower with the lid down. His seems space efficient and I like the idea of using it as a cooktop when needed. During the summer he uses a butane cook top as we do.

Amberjack · Post by **Amberjack** » May 5th, '23, 13:51

neil wrote: ↑May 3rd, '23, 19:44 Doug your interior looks great I love the simplicity

Thanks Neil, I got the idea from Bob Lico's posts. Bob, if you are reading this we miss you on the forum and hope you and yours are doing as well as possible.

Sriver43 · Post by **Sriver43** » May 5th, '23, 14:29

Johnny managed to get the back deck yanked. We are going to do a temporary solution just to get us through this summer and install 3, 4x8 sheets of marine ply that have been glassed over. Trying to get the boat in the water and back deck on before the blue angels show on May 24th.

Johnny also managed to get the through hulls replaced and remounted. Just put the g10 backing plates in with 4200 for now as we would like to re-glass them and then paint the whole bilge next winter.

Sriver43 · Post by **Sriver43** » May 5th, '23, 14:33

I was on the Ferry leaving Marthas Vineyard heading back to woods hole on Jul 24th, 2022 when this gem went scooting by. I could hear the turbos whistling. Cheers to you whomever you are.

Sriver43 · Post by **Sriver43** » May 16th, '23, 07:59

After lots of sanding and applying an additional coat of barrier coat to what was already there, johnny and i painted the bottom with Seahawk Biocop. Later that day we noticed some runs in the paint and dripping from the hull per photos.

Sriver43 · Post by **Sriver43** » May 16th, '23, 08:08

I am not one to let a problem linger over the summer and I stupidly committed the boat to being in the water next week for the blue angels. I called my local fiberglass expert for an emergency consultation. He ground away the area and pointed out that the issue along the strake was from “Bridging.” Basically a defect from the factory that has been painted over all these years. The glass that was laid over the strake was done incorrectly and did not bond into the seam where the strake meets the hull. This allowed significant water intrusion and de-lamination.

I ordered a $70 HVAC vacuum pump from amazon and some braided 1/4” ID tubing. Lots of plastic and painters tape later and the pump was sucking away.
This is my first foray into vacuum bagging. I didn’t have a catch can or anything but i found a small airtight tool box. I ran the two ends of the tube into the toolbox and used plumbers tape and 4200 to seal it in.

Seems to have gotten 1-1.5 oz of water out in just the hour or so i have ran it. Curious how long i should expect to be running this thing for….

Carl · Post by **Carl** » May 16th, '23, 09:01

Glassing of the strakes is a known problem on the 31. I'm not sure of the particulars as I haven't seen an issue, but good to know and keep an eye on each year. Also good to know it's not a structural issue, just a glassed-on strake if I was to find.

Thanks for sharing, you should be good to go shortly.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » May 16th, '23, 22:01

Once you have all the water out, I would try injecting alcohol into the void to try and help it dry out faster. Otherwise, you could be sitting for months before it is dry.

I have also been told if there is water intrusion then you should flush the void with fresh water before using the alcohol.

Sriver43 · Post by **Sriver43** » May 17th, '23, 13:12

Thanks Carl and Tony. I left the vacuum pump sucking away on it for a total of about 4 hours. After about hour two i no longer saw the water “boiling” at the entrance to the vacuum hose. All in all i extracted about 1.5 oz of water. I’m sure some of that was just from the atmosphere but i could see quite a bit coming out of the glass.

From there i wiped it down with denatured alcohol and glassed it in with epoxy. There’s probably a tiny bit of moisture left in there somewhere but it’s not much and I need the boat in the water ASAP. Waiting on epoxy to harden enough to get workeable now, then sand, barrier coat and bottom paint all in one day! Splashes tomorrow.

dognduck · Post by **dognduck** » May 31st, '23, 12:31

So, We put new throttle shifters in the boat last night. Now both barbs are opening all the way. With 5.7 260hp (old), 1.5 ratios and 15" pitch props, the boat will hit 30 knots. I was pleasantly surprised...

Carl · Post by **Carl** » May 31st, '23, 15:14

...unless you own a gas station you will want to stay away from the top end for long periods of time. Old or not, gas boat motors can suck lots of fuel fast when those 4 barrels open.

Sounds like you are making progress, enjoy the journey.

Carl

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » May 31st, '23, 21:22

Carl wrote: ↑May 31st, '23, 15:14 ...unless you own a gas station you will want to stay away from the top end for long periods of time. Old or not, gas boat motors can suck lots of fuel fast when those 4 barrels open.Sounds like you are making progress, enjoy the journey.
Carl

Own a gas station. LOL I bet it is still over $3.50 a gallon off the truck to the station.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Jun 1st, '23, 01:12

You guys crack me up with your dismay about fuel prices...

Although fuel cost is NOT the major cost of a boat, still, I cannot stop laughing when I compare your $4 per gallon to our €2 per liter (gas), or €1,5 (diesel).
Multiply by 3.8, add 10-15% for the currency rate differential and after you've done the math just feel for us.

Of course, there are other costs that we do NOT incur in life, like for example high medical costs, or exorbitant insurance, or tax brackets that defy any logic, but it's true that when we need €100 to fill up our CAR tank, we know we've paid for all that in advance...

Keep in mind that if there were ONE country considered the best in the world, everybody would be there!

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jun 1st, '23, 15:49

Yannis- The thing is, your used to paying that kind of money for fuel on that side of the pond. Fuel here used to be relatively inexpensive when I was growing up. Mom would ask the attendant to put $5.00 in the car's tank moving the needle from empty to 3/4. Now we have to pump our own and that $5.00 doesn't even move the needle, plus my tank is much smaller than moms 70's gas guzzler.
Prior owner of my boat said when fuel hit $2.00 a gallon he was done with it and downsizing...that is just what he did. The guy also had a good run to the grounds, trolled all day with a run back several times a week...it gets pricey.

Anyway, that's my story. Yes we pay ridiculous amounts for our health insurance and other insurances, plus our income tax and and and... But maybe I'm wrong, do you not pay a good share yourself...or rather if not self-employed, your employer takes it out on the other end which is basically the same. In short, nothing is free unless you don't work.

At least diesel is cheaper than gas on your side. It used to be that way for years here, diesel was about a 1/3 less. I never really paid much attention before ...anyway cheaper for sure, but that was till I converted and now diesel cost more than gas. UGH, I just have to laugh.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Jun 1st, '23, 21:48

It is only cheaper for Diesel for Yannis is because we ship a good portion of our Diesel to Europe. You would think Yanis would throw us bone or two.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Jun 1st, '23, 23:11

Tony, it doesn't matter who we buy our diesel from.
When you have more than 100% taxes on any fuel, it is bound to become expensive.
Except for the UK and Norway who are oil producers, all other countries are importers...

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jun 2nd, '23, 07:12

Yannis wrote: ↑Jun 1st, '23, 23:11 When you have more than 100% taxes on any fuel, it is bound to become expensive.
Except for the UK and Norway who are oil producers, all other countries are importers...

I wish the people here realized that...

I was going to say I wish our elected knew that, but somehow I believe they already do know...it is just better for them to "go green".

Green makes green for them...does not need to make sense.

To be upfront, I am for going truly green. That is clean air and water, don't chop down trees if possible, drilling for oil responsibly, emissions reduction seeking alternative energy sources, recycling etc...

But so much stupid... our garbage men...sorry Sanitation Engineers...will not take lawn clipping and leaves unless put in a Plastic Bag OR paperbag. Umm why in a plastic bag when I can just put in my trash can and they dump in truck. I have to buy a bag and its plastic, OK lets talk Paperbags...lol. I'd be littering the street with the amount I'd need at times. Plus a breeze blows the bags over and IF and when I have used...it rains, paper falls apart and my leaves n clipping need to be picked up again. DUMB