Battery advice

saburke17 · Post by **saburke17** » Apr 11th, '22, 09:54

Whats everyone running for batteries these days? I have 4-4D, 2 on each side outbound of the engines. 1 for each start and 2 paired up for the house, the Boat is in the paint shop and one of the thing we did was glass over the old air intakes on the side. So i had to remove the 4 batteries and it was a colossal pain in the lower back. Do i have to much battery? I carry a 2200 watt generac if i want A/C while out, my original though process was i could run my electronics all day on the 2-4D's without having to start the boat.

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Apr 11th, '22, 10:34

other than it being a PIA to replace and the weight penalty is the battery bank meeting your needs? seems like you have more capacity than you need which in my minds eye is not a bad problem to have.

with lead acid batteries, I thought you didn't want to deeply discharge them so having excess capacity is a good thing for getting an extended life out of them.

Ironworker · Post by **Ironworker** » Apr 11th, '22, 19:44

Personally, I prefer AGMs (Group 31) for my boats. However in my refit of my B31, I'm planning on a Group 31 AGM battery for each engine and multiple Lithium batteries for my house bank. Current thinking is five 100 ah Lithium batteries but with capacity to add a couple of more.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Apr 11th, '22, 19:51

Be advise FDNY respond to three fires a day from lithium batteries!!!!!

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Apr 11th, '22, 20:17

I am running Dekka group 31's for my batteries. Before that I had group 31 Interstate Truck batteries. Turning over Cummins 270HP.

The Interstate lasted 8 years before one quit and the Dekka are on their 4th year. I pull them every winter, bring them up to full charge and put a float charger on them for the winter. In the spring, I make sure they are topped off, then I use the de-sulfate function on my charger.

I would be leery of lithium on a boat. If the case cracks it is an instant fire that is hard to put out. You will definitely be going for a swim. Just check out some of these electric car accidents that had the battery case split open. Just had one here about 3 weeks ago when we had the last ice storm. Tesla slid off the road and into a tree. Battery case cracked the guy never had a chance.

Years ago, they recalled the Pinto due to a fuel tank rupturing and creating a fire hazard. How they let these lithium batteries out there is beyond me.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Apr 12th, '22, 01:30

Remember that cargo 747 that was carrying lithium batteries and perished?

scenarioL113 · Post by **scenarioL113** » Apr 12th, '22, 06:43

bob lico wrote: ↑Apr 11th, '22, 19:51 Be advise FDNY respond to three fires a day from lithium batteries!!!!!

Bob is correct!

I believe the prob with the lithium batteries is that many are made very cheaply due to their popularity. This problem has arisen in the last year and a half. Although I am retired now from FDNY I still talk to my buddies that are dealing with this problem. The Lithium batteries have been around for years but only recently become such a problem.

If you choose to use Lithium batteries I would suggest to only buy top quality from reputable brand.

saburke17 · Post by **saburke17** » Apr 12th, '22, 08:01

At 2k a pop on the 4D lithium that's a hard no for me.

Ironworker · Post by **Ironworker** » Apr 12th, '22, 08:20

There are several types of Lithium batteries. Some are more stable than others. The top brands all contain built in battery management technology are are roughly about 1K per 100ah battery.

Most fulltime cruisers are ditching the generators and going to Lithium batteries. The more technological advanced cruisers have the ability to flood a battery compartment.

If we are honest all batteries of every kind have some danger involved with storing vast quantities of energy. I prefer AGM to flooded lead acid for boats because of the safety factor with AGMs. For a typical boat you can get by with less Lithium at much less weight than using multiple AGMs for the house bank.

Yes there some premium for going lithium but its not nearly as much as one might think. A good resource for those interested in all things electrical on a boat is Pacific Yacht Systems. Lots of good resources for boaters.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Apr 12th, '22, 08:20

I carry 4 X 100 Amp lead-acid batteries.
The 3 are only charged by the sun, the 4th only by the port motor.
I change them every 4 years to be safe.
I pay € 400 for the set.
It comes down to € 100 per year.
What is it one doesn't like with this calculation?

Ironworker · Post by **Ironworker** » Apr 12th, '22, 08:25

Here is an interesting comparsion of Lithium vs Lead Acid Batteries

Ironworker · Post by **Ironworker** » Apr 12th, '22, 08:28

Yannis,

I generally change my batteries every 3 to 3.5 years. They still have decent life in them but there is no Seatow available where I boat in the Bahamas.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Apr 12th, '22, 08:57

Rick,

Any type of Seatow is nonexistent in the Med too.
There is some life in my batteries after 4 years, but I change them for safety.
Also, lead acid is everywhere, last year I changed them in the island.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Apr 12th, '22, 09:19

i went to boat yesterday to check my batteries and i think i have establish a new Olympic record possibly now marine world record . batteries were installed in 2005 and 2006 and all four Odassey 2150m batteries 1150 CCA. each are in perfect shape @ 13.4 -13.2 volts . i have isolated port, isolated starboard and two isolated house batteries for a total of four batteries ,three banks with a triple output 30 ampere ,digital pro charger .years ago i put "timing tape" on TDC. of harmonic balancer. then sucker guys at the bar to see if they could see the tape move--------well i never paid for a beer ever and lots of laughs. both engines start with the harmonic balancer moving less than 1/10 of a inch actually can not pick up by eye ,seriously instant start any time of the year and i showed about twenty brothers at past rendezvous.

Stephan · Post by **Stephan** » Apr 12th, '22, 16:57

I have four Group 31 AGM batteries in the bilge between the engines.
One starting battery for each engine that is charged by that engine's alternator and two for a house bank that provide 100 amp hours usable. I do not have any refrigeration, AC or heat on my 12 volt system so that capacity is enough for me.
I am a little surprised at the response here with lithium batteries. While I am aware of a number of issues when the technology was new I have been persuaded that advances in electrolytes, improvements in BMS (Battery Management System) and chargers have answered those issues.
If I have a worry about a lithium battery its probably about the one in my pocket...

There is a long way from cheap batteries installed in scooters that are abused and what I expect of four $1,000 batteries in the bilge of my boat. I believe insurers and the NYFD recognize that difference too.

Ironworker · Post by **Ironworker** » Apr 12th, '22, 18:53

Stephan,

I absolutely agree.

IMO, Lithium is for House batteries not for starting batteries. Which means if you're using both you need a DC/DC charger when running off the alternators.

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Apr 13th, '22, 07:49

most folks don't know what the capabilities are and the right methods to accomplish their goals. I am intrigued by their capacity but it does not seem straight forward to charge them.

Speaking of Lithiums, this picture is quite appropriate, I took it last night, who here on this site knew that you could hook up a trailer to your Tesla and put 1000# of concrete in it?
https://photos.app.goo.gl/hE2NEKVM1HebZHPp9

Ironworker · Post by **Ironworker** » Apr 13th, '22, 08:35

ktm_2000 wrote: ↑Apr 13th, '22, 07:49 most folks don't know what the capabilities are and the right methods to accomplish their goals. I am intrigued by their capacity but it does not seem straight forward to charge them.

Speaking of Lithiums, this picture is quite appropriate, I took it last night, who here on this site knew that you could hook up a trailer to your Tesla and put 1000# of concrete in it?
https://photos.app.goo.gl/hE2NEKVM1HebZHPp9

I agree. Its new technology which is getting better everyday. Ultimately its my belief that for small boats like ours generators will be a thing of the past in the near future.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Apr 13th, '22, 09:59

Ironworker wrote: ↑Apr 13th, '22, 08:35 I agree. Its new technology which is getting better everyday. Ultimately its my belief that for small boats like ours generators will be a thing of the past in the near future.

I think an awful lot of improvements need to happen before that can happen. I love my inverter but that is because I do not require much AC power and the little I use, tends to be for short periods. The problem is when capacity becomes depleted how do you recharge when away from shore power? Main motors, solar, wind or generator. Maybe a smaller generator as a backup to the other alternatives...like a hybrid car that is its own generator.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Apr 13th, '22, 11:59

For me I'd rather have a generator that burns a fraction of a gallon of fuel than mount large alternators on the engines to charge lithium batteries unless your just doing a few hour howdy boating tour.

I've pulled into a marina on a trip that had no power.
How do you charge your batteries then other than run your engines which burn much more fuel than a gen set ever would.

Technology is good, practicality is even better.

Stephan · Post by **Stephan** » Apr 13th, '22, 15:49

Bruce-
I agree and your comment made me realize the lithium battery installations I am aware of are boats optimizing for results other than you suggest.
Specifically, boats with large solar arrays that benefit from lithium batteries high acceptance rates and owners who are chasing silence and are willing to lose the efficiency in favor of quiet and no vibrations. Perhaps also some virtue signaling of not running a generator...
To each according to their wallets, I believe...
Best,
Stephan

I remember working on boats as a lad and visiting with the other crews in an anchorage to coordinate when we ran our generators (generally 9:30 am and again a bit before sunset if I recall correctly) to keep everybody happy.

Ironworker · Post by **Ironworker** » Apr 13th, '22, 19:05

I've got a buddy who just had a large custom sailing cat built for him. He does not even have a shore power hook up on the boat. Its completely self contained.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Apr 13th, '22, 21:51

ktm_2000 wrote: ↑Apr 13th, '22, 07:49 most folks don't know what the capabilities are and the right methods to accomplish their goals. I am intrigued by their capacity but it does not seem straight forward to charge them.

Speaking of Lithiums, this picture is quite appropriate, I took it last night, who here on this site knew that you could hook up a trailer to your Tesla and put 1000# of concrete in it?
https://photos.app.goo.gl/hE2NEKVM1HebZHPp9

Towing with an electric vehicle is when you find out that it really does not have a range of 300 miles. Towing significant loads cuts the range down considerably.

Amberjack · Post by **Amberjack** » Apr 14th, '22, 13:51

bob lico wrote: ↑Apr 12th, '22, 09:19 i think i have establish a new Olympic record possibly now marine world record . batteries were installed in 2005 and 2006 and all four Odassey 2150m batteries 1150 CCA. each are in perfect shape @ 13.4 -13.2 volts .

OK Bob, you got me. I replaced my lead acid Dyno GC2B 235 amp hour batteries in 2019 after 11 years in the boat. I thought that was some kind of a record. Made by an independent battery shop across the street from Fishermans Terminal. Bought my first battery from them when I had a small commercial salmon troller just out of college. Still in business in the same place. The batteries tested out within 90% capacity but I thought why stretch them another few years, then risk aging out and pass along nearly new batteries to the next owner? Now, peace of mind at anchor for 3-4 days at a stretch.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Apr 21st, '22, 16:34

FDNY rolled 4 times in 24 hours today for lithium battery fires and 10 people hurt!!!

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Apr 22nd, '22, 07:34

bob lico wrote: ↑Apr 21st, '22, 16:34 FDNY rolled 4 times in 24 hours today for lithium battery fires and 10 people hurt!!!

Were the batteries in a Toyota Prius, Tesla, VW, BMW or in an electronic device like an Apple Iphone, Ipad, tablet or laptop? Seems like an awful lot of these batteries are around that are extremely unsafe. Maybe it has something to do with inferior Lithium batteries or a bad design being the problem.

As Bruce said
"Technology is good, practicality is even better."

Sometimes an inverter is the right tool for the job, other times a generator fits the bill..and in other cases, there is a need for neither.

Stephan · Post by **Stephan** » Apr 22nd, '22, 09:41

bob lico wrote: ↑Apr 21st, '22, 16:34 FDNY rolled 4 times in 24 hours today for lithium battery fires and 10 people hurt!!!

Bob- I never doubt your desire to be helpful and know you are extremely knowledgable.

"In 2020, the Coast Guard counted 5,265 accidents that involved 767 deaths, 3,191 injuries and approximately $62.5 million dollars of damage to property as a result of recreational boating" (https://americanboating.org/boating_fatality.asp)

The Coast Guard data above, while accurate, is of very little use in assessing the safety of our Bertram 31s. I think your FDNY lithium battery statistics are similar.

Unless it was your intent to add a little heat and no light to the thread - in which case, carry on...

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Apr 22nd, '22, 12:31

I had one go nuclear in a flashlight. 3.2 volts, I think. Totally filled the house with acrid smoke and was probably 800 degrees.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Apr 22nd, '22, 15:23

the lithium battery in a car being charged overnight and was parked in under house garage.three alam fire and two homes burned.why would you install one in your precious Bertram when the Odyssey AGM. is tried and proven.i have no idea how a boating accident like striking your head and falling overboard is in the slightest bit reverent to installing lithium battery in lieu of AGM for inverter power in a Bertram 31.

Amberjack · Post by **Amberjack** » Apr 22nd, '22, 16:25

Not to mention a couple Boeing 787’s igniting a few years ago and one recent smoker. You can hop out of a Tesla, not so much a B787 or B31.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Apr 23rd, '22, 07:05

bob lico wrote: ↑Apr 22nd, '22, 15:23 the lithium battery in a car being charged overnight and was parked in under house garage.three alam fire and two homes burned.

I stand corrected, thank you for calling this to my/our attention Bob.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Apr 23rd, '22, 09:13

apparently if salt water or salt laden air like like you would encounter in a boat or a car parked along the shoreline causes the battery to "track" from positive to negative and the whole battery bank goes nuclear. one of my close friends purchased a 31 Bertram to restore and is a senior member of FDNY special operations and keeps me informed so information is first hand not googled.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Apr 23rd, '22, 15:28

no Carl i stand corrected!!!!! yesterday a fire in private plane at JFK . fire was from Lithium battery on board the FAA came and arrested the owner on the spot. FAA regulation ; no lithium battery may be transported, installed in a aircraft under Federal penalty and fine. this discussion of installing a Lithium battery in a 31 Bertram is in a no rebuttal stage.

Chuckak · Post by **Chuckak** » May 9th, '22, 17:36

I am upgrading the electrical system on a 1970 Bertram 31 Sportfisherman.
It has 502 gas big block engines with 100 amp alternators.
I moved the starting batteries to center bilge area which are Optima 34M 800 cold cranking amps AGM batteries.
The starting batteries have a 10 amp 3 stage charger for each battery setup for the AGM type.
In front of starting batteries I have space for up to four group 31 batteries for the house and/or trolling motors.
These will eventually be 100AH LifePO4 Lithium batteries. I am starting with two group 27 standard wet cell deep cycle batteries for a couple of more years. The charge characteristics of the lithium batteries are close enough for the alternators to charge without issue. I have a 2000 watt sinewave inverter/100amp charger that can be set to any type of battery that will properly finish charge the house batteries.
Each engine has a continuous duty 200 amp contactor that is turned on only when the engine is producing power from the alternator (rpm/voltage sensing circuit with 30 second time delay). This connects the engine alternator to the house battery circuit. There is a manual momentary toggle switch to jump the house battery circuit to the starting battery on each engine while cranking.
When I turn each engine off the house batteries are all isolated from the starting batteries.
High quality lithium batteries are quite fine for our boats and will out last AGM batteries two to three times in charge cycles and years.

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » May 10th, '22, 13:12

mike ohlstein wrote: ↑Apr 22nd, '22, 12:31 I had one go nuclear in a flashlight. 3.2 volts, I think. Totally filled the house with acrid smoke and was probably 800 degrees.

Mike: Was that on charge or just sitting? I have a few of them around the house!

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » May 10th, '22, 13:32

It was in use. Something had rolled under the couch and the flashlight was on. Very scary.

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » May 11th, '22, 11:14

Yikes!

Geebert · Post by **Geebert** » May 30th, '22, 14:31

I recently heard about these https://fireflyenergy.com/
I think they use some sort of carbon instead of lead.
More performance and longevity than traditional batteries without the risk of lithium.
Dont know the cost, but i'll bet its cheaper than lithium

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » May 31st, '22, 10:08

https://youtube.com/shorts/yGDkiUAwxRs?feature=share

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » May 31st, '22, 13:36

Tony Meola wrote: ↑Apr 13th, '22, 21:51 Towing with an electric vehicle is when you find out that it really does not have a range of 300 miles. Towing significant loads cuts the range down considerably.

That Home Depot has been a treat for high intelligence people - was there Friday night and a guy was loading 16' pieces of trex decking in the back of his 5.5' bed Brand new Tundra, leaving the balance hanging out the back end, bowing heavily. I tried to advise the guy to open his sliding rear window and slide the stuff forward but he obviously knew better than me and was going to do it his way. I wonder how it worked out for him?