Capt. Patrick Rudder/Rudder Bearing

[jackryan]

Faithful,

I have the old steel rudder bearings and am going to be replacing them with a set of stainless/thermoplastic rudder bearings. The bearings have some rust on them and are frozen, so I will need to cut them off. My brother unearthed an old post by Captain Patrick where he suggested that, to remove seized bearings, just drill a series of holes in the steel bearing housing and give them a few whacks with a chisel to break them off. I have a couple of questions about rudder bearing removal/replacment and Captain Patrick's oversized rudders:

1) Has anyone had any experience removing their rudder bearings using Capt. Patricks method?

2) Is it safe to remove and replace rudder bearings while the boat is in the water, or should I have the boat hauled out for this job. (I understand that the boat will eventually need to be hauled to install the oversized rudders)

3) We measured the original rudder shafts that are currently in the boat and they appear to be 1 1/4" shafts. Do Capt. Patricks oversized rudders have the same 1 1/4" rudder shaft?

4) Do Capt. Patricks oversized rudders increase the draft of the boat by much?

As always, thanks for the help and expert advice!

JR

[Rawleigh]

Jack: I doubt you will have a problem doing it in the water. Just add a good pair of Vice Grips to the shaft above the packing as insurance. Rawleigh

[Tony Meola]

What Rawleigh said. You do not want to loose that rudder.

Mine were frozen to the rudder shaft. So we took the easy way out, cut the rudder shaft with a sawzall and put in the oversized rudders.

I don't think the oversize rudders change the draft. If they do the most would be an inch or so.

[Marshall Mahoney]

Although I'm not addressing your questions, I thought this might be useful. I added some dimensions to Capt Pats drawings so a machine shop could build my rudders. Also, I replaced my tiller arms with round, keyed arms -- hence no square section on the rudder. My tiller arms are under the rudder shelf. I did not go back with steel bearings. Simply drilled a hole thru some HDPE and mounted them on top and bottom of the rudder shelf and added a big washer to prevent wear on the HDPE.

[pschauss]

My props stick down further than my oversized rudders.

[JoeBro]

I replaced my stock rudders with oversize rudders from High Tide Marine. I went back and looked at the photos I took when I replaced them. They look about the same as the ones in the drawings in this thread. They're a couple inches longer than the stock rudders but as said previously by pschauss - the props are deeper in the water than the bottom of the rudders. The answer to the question really depends on the rudder length and the propeller diameter. You would have to put ~16" props on to get them above the bottom of the stock rudders. Also, the rudders are well below the bottom of the hull vee in depth. I highly recommend going with the oversized rudders. The are fantastic. The difference is evident when trolling on one engine with the autopilot on. With the old rudders the autopilot could not hold course in a head sea or when trying to go at an angle into the head sea when the chop was over 2 feet. With the oversize rudders the chop has to get to 4 or 5 feet before the autopilot goes out of control.

[EarleyBird]

Here is a picture of EarleyBird’s port Stainless Rudder made by Stuart Propeller. I have 5.9 BTA’s 270 HP. The shafts are Aquamet 22 1 1/2” 83 1/4” EOT. I turn 20X22 DQX wheels with a medium cup. 5500 Hrs. on the Motors with never a problem, doing all routine maintenance. Coolers, Water Pumps, etc have been renewed. Renewing Turbos and injectors and a compression test this year. Any questions just ask. Overnight Canyon trip with generator running at night we burn 150 gallons give or take 10. Cruise 24 knots East bound @ 2300rpm. Going home push her up to slightly less than 2400 she runs a solid 26 knots occasionally touching 27. EarleyBird

[jackryan]

As usual, great stuff! Thanks for all of the great information!

The one question I still have is-Next time I haul the boat out for a bottom job, can I just remove the original rudders and replace with a set of Capt. Patricks rudders without any modifications, or will I have to modify the size of the rudder through hull port and purchase a different size rudder bearing?

The original rudder shaft fits into a 1 1/4" rudder bearing---do you guys know if Capt. Patricks oversized rudder shaft will fit into the through hull rudder port and fit into to 1 1/4" rudder bearing?

I feel like Capt. Patrick probably designed these to just drop right into the slot where the old rudders sat, but not positive that's the case.

Thanks!

JR

[pschauss]

For rudders I got from Bobby Soles propeller, I was able to use the existing through-hulls and bearings. I had to use a bit of "persuasion" to remove the bearings from the old rudders. I believe that I also had to work on the collars which went between the bearings and the tillers to get them to fit.

The people at Bobby Soles sent drawings of the rudders for my approval before they started work so that I could verify that they would fit.

[jackryan]

Thanks Peter, That's pretty much what I thought. I'm not familiar with Bobby Soles, were his rudders similar to Capt. Patricks over size rudders?

JR

[pschauss]

Thanks Peter, That's pretty much what I thought. I'm not familiar with Bobby Soles, were his rudders similar to Capt. Patricks over size rudders?

JR

Jack,

When I bought mine two years ago, people on this list told me that Bobby Soles Propeller had the "official" design for the oversized rudders. When I called them and told them they were for a Bertram 31, all they wanted to know was if the tillers were above or below the shelf.

[EarleyBird]

A little more added information on EarleyBird’s Rudders. Leading edge is 1/8”, trailing 1/2”. Still using original rudder port ( thru-hull) and packing gland. Tiller arms are below rudder bearing shelf, bearings are steel and require a lot of TLC to keep rust at a minimum. I also have a double-acting Hynautic Hydraulic Steering cylinder. If someone would like, I’ll measure rudder shaft (LOA) from interior hull to top and length of the square machining for tiller arms. I do a lot of Fall Bass fishing, sometimes in not perfect sea conditions. She steers very well on one motor with trolling valve engage to keep speed between 3-3.5 knots, sometimes requiring a few more Rpmz to buck wind or current or turning, EarleyBird

[Tony Meola]

Jack

I have Capt. Pats rudders and i used the existing rudder port. Be prepared for replacing or eliminating the shim under the port. When mine came off the shim was cracked in pieces and only held together from the sealant used when the factory installed them.

I made new shims, but I believe Capt pat went with no shim and the rudders leaned a little. Maybe I am a little crazy but that would have driven me nuts knowing that. Making it was easy with a little trial and error.

I managed to find a round tin that was 6 inches in diameter. I found a perfectly level spot in my garage to do this. Luckily, I had two good pieces from the original shim and they were the most important pieces. The thickest side, which was 3/8 thick (if memory serves me) and the thin side. I placed the thin side and thick side in the tin opposite each other and used a felt tip to mark where they fell in the tin.

I then set the tin on the garage floor and placed the thick part of the shim under the side of the tin that would be the thin part of the shim. I waxed the tin and mixed up some epoxy. I added some chopped strands of mat to give it some strength, but I did not thicken it because I wanted it to flow.

I used slow setting hardner, only because wanted time to make any adjustments. I poured the epoxy, until it hit the line, I made on what would be the thick side. This gave me the angle I needed for the rudders to be straight.

The part did not pop out, so I carefully cut the tin away.

I also broke the shim when I tried to drill out the hole for rudder shaft. Mistake I made was using a spade bit. Use a hole saw and make sure you drill straight. If you have a drill press it will make it easier.

Have fun.

[Snipe]

When I pulled mine down the shims were cracked as well. I just mixed up thickened epoxy and put wax paper on the hull side of the rudder port waxed the bolts so nothing would stick to them and bed the rudder into the epoxy until it was straight let dry. I then pulled it down cleaned everything up and reinstall ports for good. Same process was done on my struts when I changed my shaft angle.

[bob lico]

the Phoenix has custom rudders and rudder ports. i removed everything and sealed it up with a continuous 2' build up from struts backer to transom .i level the boat and use a laser to find center for new style rudder port made of solid F/G with neoprene solid internals so rudders are supported for 6" instead of using 3 rows of 1/4" flax. rudder post were available from high tide marine FL. the top support bearing is a state of art stainless bearing with a 8" diameter w/p housing and 4 --SS thru bolts .the set up is made to do 90 degree turns at 38 knots without flexing the rudders and of course no drip what so ever. good for a hundred years and flush with the bottom of the boat .i don't think there is a 31' Bertram in the world with this set up.

[Ironworker]

I had my oversized rudders built by John Gieges Jr. along with a new rudder shelf, bearings etc. He did a great job and I recommend him.

Bobby Soles Prop shop is in West Palm Beach, FL. They also do great work.

[jackryan]

Outstanding information-thanks so much to all for taking the time to go over details of your rudder set up.

Tony, sounds like quite a project to fabricate the shims--I'm sure you weren't happy when you broke the shim drilling through it. I'm hoping my shims stay intact when I remove the old rudders. I wonder if someone could chime in with a technique they use to release a fiberglass/resin part from a mold--we've been using parchment paper on all of our fiberglass/resin parts, but I'm not sure that would work in a round mold.

Bob, as usual, your set up sounds amazing! I'll keep you guys posted on the rudder install!

Jim, I'm pretty sure I have the same Hynautic cylinder setup you have. Great pics of your rudders!

JR

[Rawleigh]

If you do it in a tin like tony did, drill the hole before you take the tin off.

[Tony Meola]

If you do it in a tin like tony did, drill the hole before you take the tin off.

Where were you when I needed you! LOL

[Rawleigh]

I have 20/20 hindsight! LOL

[bob lico]

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ ... 46(1).heic finish rudder post tower with full support for custom rudders, hull at rudder exit is complely flush with hull (zero drag) maintenance free 100 year installation and the rudder has 8" of total support with no play or shutter at high speeds.

[EarleyBird]

Looks real pretty Mr.Lico, and I’m sure runs smooth as silk at 38 knots when you able, but has Phoenix spent any time 100 miles off? Bilge looks like she might spend a little time between the pilings. As you know I’m sure 38 knots going Off or heading West doesn’t happen very often. Hear you own a rocket ship. With that smooth running gear and beautiful 31 you own be nice to see you targeting some of these big tunas we fish for inside the Hudson, Have you ever put some blood in that pretty Lady. Caught one today over 200# 12 off. Messing with you, dump my bent butt 80 but we got her EarleyBird

[Tony Meola]

Bob

Nice work as usually.

Jim

200lb is big from what I have been hearing. Heard they were in the 60lb class for the most part. By the way from what I hear, Bob scrubs his bilge after every trip and rainstorm. I can attest Bob keeps his boat spotless. I got to see her at one of the get togethers. Well thought out.

[bob lico]

early bird we have to go 20 miles to the inlet and 72 miles to the first Flyer and 14 miles to the 100 Square ,from their we are all over. the bilge only looked like this after i painted the new rudder post job.i have custom fish boxes that go over this area that keep it reasonably clean.Phoenix is out all the time my son takes her out ,i take it on charters and we both take her out.i try to explain she runs 30 cruise, 28 to maximize fuel economy and 26 in terrible seas . she rides on top of the crest however it is real loud in the cabin as the waves crest hit the mid ships from wave to wave.all well and good until 6' seas then you would completely back off in head seas.you don't feel a damn thing on the bridge because of the seats and shock absorbers, you tend to fall asleep at the wheel in four foot waves. seeing is believing take a ride to sayville during small craft warnings and we will go out.Don1t let anyone kid you there is always a drawback and Phoenix will not run between speeds of 19 and 23 .it starts pushing water and engines are straining terrible as in flat calm water. some time i go to montauk with a group so i run 20 miles or so and bring her down to idle and go down for a cup of coffee and wait for them to catch up.