1969 31 Bertram Bahia Mar Rebuild

[PeterPalmieri]

Tony I’ve got 15 degree rod holders in my transom. Ray I stalled them.

[Tony Meola]

Tony I’ve got 15 degree rod holders in my transom. Ray I stalled them.

Peter

Did you have to cut the back panel to make them fit?

[devinfox]

Neil, what HP are your motors? They look like 6bt Cummins of some flavor.

[PeterPalmieri]

Did you have to cut the back panel to make them fit?

I meant to say Raybo installed them, no modification to get them to fit

[neil]

270

[devinfox]

Who has bronze shaft logs and who has fiberglass and why did you choose them?
I have to upgrade and I am looking at a bronze pair from high tide or glassing in shaft tubes. Would love to hear some pros and cons for both.

edit: I am looking at G10 epoxy/glass tubes as an alternative to Capt. Pat's method. any reason these would not be good/superior?
G10 specs:
Acculam® & NEMA Grade
G10 / FR4
Military Grade(s) & Type(s)
Mil-I-24768 /27 GEE-F
Inner Diameter (ID)
2.000 in
Outer Diameter (OD)
3.000 in
Tolerance for Inner Diameter (±)
0.008 in
Tolerance for Outer Diameter (±)
0.008 in
Wall Thickness
0.500 in
Wall Tolerance (±)
0.013 in

[Snipe]

I went fiberglass I bought shaftlog material on https://www.fisheriessupply.com/centek- ... st-housing
They had both tubes fit perfectly together.

[devinfox]

I went fiberglass I bought shaftlog material on https://www.fisheriessupply.com/centek- ... st-housing
They had both tubes fit perfectly together.

Snipe, thanks for that link!

[Snipe]

No problem I am rebuilding a FBC from the hull up right now. You can learn a lot on this site. Some of these guys have built up some beautiful boats on here. Check out the Building tips section there is lots of goodd stuff in there. Best of luck on your build.

[bbtiller]

Here's a link to pics of the old Vamos, now "Bruiser"...use the second one, the first is my attempt to have the pics in this post.



https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipP ... FOd2hDV3ln

[ktm_2000]

on the 0 degree transom rod holders, are the lees swivel ones good enough for a giant or does one need to get a more heavy duty rod holder?

[Charlie J]

hope you have a good backing plate for thous big boys

[neil]

on the 0 degree transom rod holders, are the lees swivel ones good enough for a giant or does one need to get a more heavy duty rod holder?

The rod holders themselves have never been a problem. A few years back we almost snapped the gunnel in half with about 35 pounds of drag.. That winter I redid the gunnels with 3/4 cosa and supports every few feet. If your gunnel is in good shape and you use the Lee backing plates you shouldn’t have a problem, no matter how much heat you put on him.

[ktm_2000]

I mostly stand-up fish so I'm more wishing than wondering. I do have a set of bent butt 80s so I think I'm good below 35#

[Tony Meola]

[/quote]The rod holders themselves have never been a problem. A few years back we almost snapped the gunnel in half with about 35 pounds of drag.. That winter I redid the gunnels with 3/4 cosa and supports every few feet. If your gunnel is in good shape and you use the Lee backing plates you shouldn’t have a problem, no matter how much heat you put on him.[/quote]\\

Neil

Did you run the coosa the whole length of the transome or just at the points the rod holders were? Did you support it for the full height from the support shelf that the deck sits on up to the top of the transom?

[PabloSieablo]

Hello my name is Paul, and I'm the brand new owner of a 31' Bahia Mar 1972 (hard top model), here in Bermuda. It's been a dream of mine from about 1978 to own this boat, and after several "polite" inquiries and attempts over a span of 10yrs or so - they've finally agreed to let me take the helm. I'm so, so relived...but now I have to clean and restore her. She has brand new 1.5inch shafts, new rudders and two new GM 7.4L Sportpac engines that haven't been run or completely installed...and my first question is, they've sat for a about 3 years, should I run these motors or just install diesels right from the start? Gas and diesel prices here are extremely high compared to the US(especially gas), so has anyone ran these motors to discover how much the consume...I believe they are 330/340 hp.
Thanks

[Stephan]

Paul-
Welcome!
I have older carbureted 7.4 liter gas engines. I get about 0.9 NM/Gal, About 22 Gal/Hr at 20 Kts. I installed Garmin fuel flow sensors which checked out against refueling so I am confident in these numbers. My boat is a fairly light FBC with a Bimini top turning 17v17.5 three blade props. I believe the newer fuel injected engines are more efficient than mine.
If I could manage diesel engines I would do it and would expect significantly better efficiency. But I love my boat and gas is much better than nothing.
Good Luck.
Stephan

[Tony Meola]

Welcome.

Not sure how far along the engine install is or what kind of shape the boat is in, but if the engine install means in the water in a month, then maybe you should use her with gas.

Depending how far you have to take a diesel conversion, you could be layed up 6 months or more.

The other factor is fuel savings. If you have 365 days a year to use her and if you save enough in fuel go diesels.

Figure it this way, depending on the engines, a diesel can push you along anywhere from 20 knots to 28 knots cruise with a fuel burn from 12 gallons an hour up to 18 gallons an hour give or take.

So figure out a diesel package, including repower cost then you can start to determine if diesrls sre worth it.

[PabloSieablo]

Thanks for your replies Tony and Stephen, they helped me a great deal. The engines are closer to being installed then not, will have to make some adjustments here and there but I think running them for a few seasons will be my best option for now. We do have a long summer here plus plenty of good days in the winter, but I'll have to learn to throttle back and keep her as fuel efficient as possible. Also, I forgot to mention that I already have one new Volvo D6 350 in my possession and plan to get a second one...do you think these are good options or will I be upsetting the balance of power/weight ratio? And dose anyone have any advice or any links that can walk me through the proper conversion process? Just trying to formulate the best plan moving forward.

Thanks again, Paul.

[Stephan]

Paul-
I can't speak to your Volvo engine question.
I do believe my boat is more efficient at around 20 Kts. than at higher and lower speeds. I installed and can recommend the Garmin GFS10 fuel flow sensors(https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/11561). These with almost any Garmin GPS or sonar unit will provide real time measurement of fuel flow and compute efficiency against GPS speed.
Regards,
Stephan

[Tony Meola]

Paul

350 hp is getting into the upper hp range. Not sure but you many need 1 3/4 shafts. Hopefully Bruce will answer that one. Just make sure they fit size wise in the engine space.

Only ot her thing is make sure you can get parts for tyge m in your area. Also Vovo parts are not cheap.

Other than that it looks like you have a plan.

[devinfox]

Hello my name is Paul, and I'm the brand new owner of a 31' Bahia Mar 1972 (hard top model), here in Bermuda. It's been a dream of mine from about 1978 to own this boat, and after several "polite" inquiries and attempts over a span of 10yrs or so - they've finally agreed to let me take the helm. I'm so, so relived...but now I have to clean and restore her. She has brand new 1.5inch shafts, new rudders and two new GM 7.4L Sportpac engines that haven't been run or completely installed...and my first question is, they've sat for a about 3 years, should I run these motors or just install diesels right from the start? Gas and diesel prices here are extremely high compared to the US(especially gas), so has anyone ran these motors to discover how much the consume...I believe they are 330/340 hp.
Thanks

Paul, sounds like almost the exact same boat. I wish you well with your restoration. Please post pics of the boat when you get a chance.

[PabloSieablo]

Hello again guys, been a while.
Last time I was on here I mentioned running my Volvo's vs using the 454's gas that came with the boat, well I just received another option. Anyone ever run the Marine Diesel 6.5 300hp engines? A dealer here has some units that were originally out of Sweden, not sure if there the peninsular version or not...but I've heard mixed reviews about them, can anyone weigh in please?
Going to see and have them run tomorrow, but I don't want to waste my time if they're no good.
Thanks, Paul.

[Carl]

The only 6.5's I am familiar with are the GM converted gas motors...
If its those, I think a bit light duty for a 31 and not the most reliable.

Although the Out of Sweden part has me scratching my head. Unless they just traveled the world to get to your neck of the woods.

[PabloSieablo]

Just an update. Im looking at the Marine Diesel "Hammerhead" 300hp motors, not peninsular. Swedish manufacturing has made many changes/upgrades to the overall motor, this unit is supercharged and turbo charged and virtually runs smoke free. They get confused with the old GM 6.5 blocks cause they're so similar.
Here's some history...(I copied from another site..a bit long but clarifies the subject)
Background On the Optimizer 6500 Power Plant
When General Motors decided to sell the engine rights to the GM 6.5L engine family, AM General quickly moved on securing the overall engine requirements, however decided to make major product design and durability improvements by introducing the Optimizer 6500 in place of the earlier GM 6.5L models. Since most of the public is familiar with the Humvee/ Hummer and the fact that several 100,000 of these vehicles have been produced with the earlier GM 6.2L & 6.5L engines, they automatically assume the current 6.5L engine offering to be the same GM 6.5L. It becomes quickly evident that the MarineDiesel product is NOT built on the old General Motors 6.5L diesel engine platform. MarineDiesel is factory authorized by the AM General Corporation to manufacture the MD product line utilizing a marine version of the Optimizer 6500 V8 engine block. The Optimizer 6500 engine is produced by the General Engine Products Division of the AM General corporation. Although the Optimizer 6500 engine shares many similarities to the previous General Motors 6.5L engines, the Optimizer engine is an engine of it’s own merits, yielding the durability to handle the performance and torque associated with 300 Hp & 500+ Lb-Ft torque marine applications. The General Motors 6.2L & 6.5L diesels were never intended to be high performance diesel engines and therefore would never have been capable of supporting the rigorous marine duty cycles achieved with today’s Optimizer 6500 engines. This is evident by looking at historical data yielded by several other companies who tried to produce GM 6.5L based marine engine and therefore unfortunately mis-appropriately tarnished the industry’s overall image of 6.5L based products.
Another common mis-conception is that the MarineDiesel product line being based on a 6.5L engine design (Optimizer 6500) is therefore comparable to the engine offerings of our competitors. The truth is that MarineDiesel never produced any marine engines based on the GM 6.2L or 6.5L engine. MarineDiesel’s competition cannot make this claim and therefore many of the issues customers relate to the competition are based on products produced and sold using the GM engines.

Well...with all that said, dose anyone run these MarineDiesel units? I'm told my units are the only ones here in Bermuda, so maybe they're not wide spread..

[Carl]

Lots of info there...

But what I got out of that is:

What about Parts and Service?

Even the best of the best motors will need some every now and then...can you readily buy parts, can you call and ask a tech a question, can you call a tech in to work on them.
And when you do will you get a "Huh"...haven't seen one of these before.
Some motors have areas of strong support and I'd add that to your determining factor.

I mention as dad has a pair or Steyrs...great motors. But the parts are tough to come by, they are expensive and the oddities must be flown in from Eurpoe and then its even tougher to find people to work on them.

[Tony Meola]

Pablo

Carl is right. They might be great engines, but if you have difficulty getting parts, then they are not so great.

Make sure there are mechanics in your area who can service them and make sure the parts stream is reliable.

If no to even one of those two things then think long and hard before you buy them.

[PabloSieablo]

Yes Carl, parts are pretty easy. My guy here was a dealer at one point and knows them inside out and can readily access parts. There's a few dealers in the US as well, spoke to one in California today... he said the motors are solid.
Anyway, just wonder if anybody out there actually has them or not...be nice to know some first hand knowledge.
Also, where can I order some coosa board I hear your guys talking about, and does it come in beams too?

[devinfox]

I had a kid about the same time I first posted, I must have been kidding myself that I would be able to work on anything. I decided to take on another smaller project with my father before jumping into the Bertram. We’ve been redoing his 18’5 Maverick Master Angler this summer. In the meantime I have been doing some research on the engines I have. They are CPL 1928, 315-m2 engines according to Cummins. I have read ad nauseam on here all things Cummins and done a lot of research on boatdiesel as well. I haven’t found a ton on this CPL engine, but if anyone has a pair I’d sure like to hear about their experience. I’m considering looking for a pair of later model -m3 storm block motors and picking up some ZF gears. The gears (twin disc mg5050a, 1.5:1, 10 degree down angle) I have are good up to 365hp and are cast iron and twice the weight of the zf220. They are shallower on the bottom than the ZF which would allow the installation to be lower maybe? I intend to drop the motor as low as possible like some of the folks here have successfully done.

So the main dilemma for me now is, keep these engines and have them gone through again, rebuilt if needed or look for later model engines and have them rebuilt if needed. I’m most likely not buying reman engines, the cost just seems too high to put into a 51 year old boat. Open to all thoughts and opinions on the matter.

[devinfox]

Testing

[Tony Meola]

Devin

If you lower the engine you will probably need to changed the shaft angle, and still spin 20 or 21 inch prop.

I realize these boats are old, but if you are putting money into a restoration, then why not a newer engine. If you only plan on keeping her a short time then I understand the way you are thinking. If you are keeping her for the long haul, then I would go with an updated engine model.

[devinfox]

I am planning on replacing the struts and glassing in new shaft logs. Engine beds will need to be new as well, so I figured I would make the changes to reduce shaft angle while I’m at it. Would you suggest reman or rebuilt or new something other than Cummins? Can’t say I really have an allegiance, but I like the idea of the simple 6bta mechanicals

[devinfox]

Reading on boatdiesel it sounds like my engines have an RSV governor as well as a nippondenso pump and they will not idle below 750 rpm without surging and or stalling. From what Mr Bob Lico has posted, properly propped it would be way too fast of an idle at that speed, can anyone speak to this?

[Tony Meola]

Devin

I would look st the Cummins remain program. Depending on what you are looking for some of the mechanicsl engines might be getting hard to come by.

I say Cummins due to ease of getting parts, plus they are popular engines. I believe that a lot of the Cummins remans right now are the QSB's.

Good luck with your build.

[PabloSieablo]

Hi,guys(been a while).
Has anyone ever mounted Seablaze x2 (surface mount lights) on underside of stainless steel trim tabs ?
I want to avoid drilling more holes in my hull plus have the advantage of a bit of directional lighting while fishing.
Anyone see any issues?
(I plan to feed wiring through transom via some tubing to avoid marine growth buildup)

[devinfox]

Pablo, that sounds like a bad idea. I am not an expert, but turbulence problems come to mind. Maybe that’s common practice, but it’s not something I’ve seen.

[Tony Meola]

Panlo

Are you doing something like thus?

https://youtu.be/sSNGyqfvwoU