crusader 6.0 mpi in a 31 fbc

[captanger]

has anyone repowered with these crusaders, if so how is the performance and economy. i have a set of 454 crusaders that wont die. they are 86 carbs going into this summer for the 28th season.

[Craig Mac]

No substitute for cubic inches---454 and 496 are the way to go for gas----on paper the 6.0 looks good, but in the real world
I have heard of disappointments.

Check out this thread on the Blackfin site:

http://www.blackfinforums.com/content/2 ... ge-repower

[MarkD]

I could not read the forum on Blackfin without a password but I did speak to a guy with a 29 Blackfin who went with the 6.0's. He has been very unhappy due to lack of torque and less weight has the boat riding differently. On paper, as mentioned, the HP ranges and fuel burn looked good to him. The higher rpm motors would apparently give him similar results - or so he thought. He now runs the engines at 3600-4000 to get reasonable speeds. He is not happy with the decision.

[Pete Fallon]

Craig Mac,
I had 7.4L Blue Water Edition Throttle Bodied Fuel Injected Mercruisers with 1:5:1 Hurth 8 degree Down Angle Trannies, they were ordered direct from Mercruiser at the time in 1997 I was on their professional anglers program. I asked a lot of questions before I bought them. At first the rep wanted me to go with the 5.7 L small block engines and multi port fuel injections, but due to fuel cooling issues I went with the big blocks that were detuned to 310 shaft horse power from the original 330 rated hp. I was very happy I went that way, more than enough torque and great fuel burn. I got 41.8 mph on the GPS at wide open throttle and she cruised all day at 3000 rpms at 30 mph. They were 4 bolt mains with stainless steel ceramic lined exhaust manifolds and 3" mid manifold exhaust risers. I had fiberglass exhaust elbows with all silicon rubber exhaust hoses that went from 3-1/2" at the manifolds to a fiberglass 5" Y then 5" all the way to the transom outlets, there was no back pressure issues and the were very quite with the Vernay mufflers under the deck and flappers at the transom oulets. I have heard other people complain about the 6.0 Crusaders, they said that they had no low end torque and took for ever to get up on plane.
The 31' Bertram is a heavy boat for it's size and needs power to get it up on plane quickly, there is nothing worse than waiting for the bow to come back down after you give her the gas. That's just my opinion.
Pete Fallon

[Tony Meola]

Pete

Are you sure about that 30 MPH cruise? That is 25 knots. I had 454 Mercs 350HP carborated and 3000 RPM's was 19 knots at about 25 gals hour. That is on a 75 FBC. Topped out at about 4200 RPMS clost to 40 MPH.

Now 270 cummins. It will top out at 30 Knots at 2650 RPMS. Cruise at 24 knots all day. I am running light, no tower.

[Craig Mac]

I have a light gas boat ---30mph @3200 & 28mph @3000

[John F.]

Try this:

http://bertram31.com/newbb/viewtopic.ph ... urk#p19222

[Pete Fallon]

John F,
That 30 mph was at 3000 rpms, the engines are throttle bodied fuel injected FWC 454's , not carbed, WOT was 4300 at 41.8 on the GPS. You have to remember that I had a low -profile strut system and the boat is an express cruiser with 8 degree down angle trannies. The low profile struts are only 9.5inches from the bottom of the boat to the center of the strut hole and have an intermediate struts just aft of the shaft log tube exit, I had 17x18 3 blade Nybral props with a slight cup. The boat has composite foam cockpit sole panels and I have removed as much of the old plywood head liner in the cabin and the head and replaced them with FRP gel coated panels also the side and stern panels in the cockpit are FRP panels. The lower the angle of the shafts the better the boat performs, most 31's built after 1962-63 had longer struts and were using 1-3/8" shafts, mine are 1-1/4" monel shafts. All I know is the boat was fast and the fuel burn with the throttle bodies was very good, I don't think I ever burned more than 22 gallons per hour at WOT. The two injectors per engine are metered by the ECM's and other electronics on those engines. All I can tell you is that that's what I got for performance out of that old tank. The old 440's would burn 60 gallons an hour with the Rochester secondary's opened up and I was lucky to get 30 miles an hour on a flat calm day down sea and down wind.
Pete Fallon

[wmachovina]

Thread creep??? How the snow treating ya Pete?

[John F.]

Pete-

If you think I doubt a word or what you say about performance, I don't. I just posted that old thread up because there had been some discussion about small blocks in B31s. I didn't mean to offend you if it came across that way.


John

[Tony Meola]

Pete

It would be interesting to know how much of a difference that shaft angle made. I bet your boat runs flatter than ours do.

[Pete Fallon]

John F, No offense taken at all, I have very thick skin and some have said I have a thick head also.

Bill Machovina, The snow is the worse I can remember Boston as of this evening has 79 inches on the ground. it is so bad that the T and the commuter trains haven't run since Sunday night and when they do they keep breaking down because of the ice on the 3 rd rail. Here in Peabody we have 75 inches with drifts over the roofs of the cars. Around the state there have been over 25 roof collapses because of snow weight build-up. Also there is no where to put the snow and you can't shovel it above your head, the corners of the streets have piles that are 8 to 10 feet high. I haven't been out of the house since Saturday afternoon, plus I am still recovering from nerve surgery and an inflamed bursa sac under my right knee, it's hard to get around on crutches in the ice and snow. I hope to get back down to Stuart in early March if everything works out with the knee.

Tony M, My boat has a different hull configuration because the 1961 boats had 4 strakes at the bow that are 12" apart and the bottoms of the strakes are wider and flatter than the later models. After the first 100 or so boats they re-did the hull mold. My shaft angle is 12 degrees at the strut and I have intermediate struts 2" aft of the shaft log exit. The largest props without changing all the running gear is 18" in diameter which allows 1-1/2" of clearance between the prop tip and the hull bottom any more prop will cause hull cavitation burns to the bottom. I run 17"x18 3 bladed Nybral props with a slight cup. I never had a problem seeing over the bow when the boat was coming up on plane, I am 6' 3' maybe that has something to do with seeing better. I have experimented with different speeds and I found that I can run the boat at 16 mph and still stay on plane before she drops off. I remember running from Palm Beach (Lake Worth Inlet) to the Loran tower off of Hobe Sound running into a NE 15 mph head wind with 3 to 4 footers at 30 mph and goosing her up to 35 mph and still had a great ride, the only reason I dropped back to 30 mph was my mate was rigging baits and I didn't want him to stab himself with the rigging needle. Anyway I think Bob Lico had a post a while back about the flatter the running angle the better the ride.
To all have a good week, we are supposed to get another 12'' of snow between Thursday and Sunday night that will bring us over 90 inches in the Boston area. I need to get out of here soon.
Pete Fallon

[bob lico]

pete after 10 years of talking to Bertram 31 owners until i am blue in the face they will never understand how 1200 31 Bertrams ride one way and yours and mine take on a completely different ride characteristic. i look forward to going to rendezvous to convince 10 or so brothers this incredible feature we have discover."wow the water is getting worst i going to have to increase speed"your going to do WHAT?????( normal answer).could you just imagine that same shaft angle with the torque of almost four of your engines,the difference is my boat is very heavy at stern like 13,500 lbs. with more then 60% AFT of bulkhead so when your drop the hammer she goes up on 45 degree angle and slams down on plane in five seconds.rather silly but sometimes fun for a ride of another bertram owner.
Pete get well we need you!

[Pete Fallon]

Bob Lico,
I have told others about the performance of 31's with shallow shaft angles, they don't believe me either. I nevr got the 45 degree angle slam but she probably got 25 degrees and that was just for a very short time. Like I said I'm almost 6'4" and never had a problem with sight lines over the bow on my express cruiser, which was 14,500 pounds when I weighed her after the repower in 1997. that was after being out of the water for almost 8 years during the redo. NO BS 41.8 mph on the Northstar GPS in Lake Worth and then out into the Ocean off of Palm Beach Shores to the Juno Pier and back. 3500 rpms was 35 mph, 3000 rpms was 30 mph 2500 rpms was 25 mph and she dropped off plane at 16 mph. Never hooked up a fuel burn meter but I filled her up 172 gallon FRP original tank and fished for 3 days and only burned 110 gallons for 125 miles of running t all speed. The chopper it got the faster she wanted to run into the slop. I don't care if nobody but you knows how these boats are supposed to run into a 3 to 4 chop, that's what they were designed for in 1958 by Ray Hunt Sr. If I ever get another one it's going to be an express cruiser and if I have to I'll change her out to flat shaft bangles with 2 sets of struts per side. Plus they will be gassers because I don't like the smell of diesel especially on an express boat. Only you and I and a select few know how they are supposed to run. Getting better but had a few set backs with ice and snow I now have a Bursa sac problem below the inner knee area, hurts like hell even with the pain pills.
Pete

[Carl]

Bob Lico,
I have told others about the performance of 31's with shallow shaft angles, they don't believe me either. I nevr got the 45 degree angle slam but she probably got 25 degrees and that was just for a very short time. Like I said I'm almost 6'4" and never had a problem with sight lines over the bow on my express cruiser, which was 14,500 pounds when I weighed her after the repower in 1997. that was after being out of the water for almost 8 years during the redo. NO BS 41.8 mph on the Northstar GPS in Lake Worth and then out into the Ocean off of Palm Beach Shores to the Juno Pier and back. 3500 rpms was 35 mph, 3000 rpms was 30 mph 2500 rpms was 25 mph and she dropped off plane at 16 mph. Never hooked up a fuel burn meter but I filled her up 172 gallon FRP original tank and fished for 3 days and only burned 110 gallons for 125 miles of running t all speed. The chopper it got the faster she wanted to run into the slop. I don't care if nobody but you knows how these boats are supposed to run into a 3 to 4 chop, that's what they were designed for in 1958 by Ray Hunt Sr. If I ever get another one it's going to be an express cruiser and if I have to I'll change her out to flat shaft bangles with 2 sets of struts per side. Plus they will be gassers because I don't like the smell of diesel especially on an express boat. Only you and I and a select few know how they are supposed to run. Getting better but had a few set backs with ice and snow I now have a Bursa sac problem below the inner knee area, hurts like hell even with the pain pills.
Pete

Pete,
At 6'4" you would have much better visibility then me at 5'-10". For me, my express runs great in slop no need to cut back on throttles other then can't see into the troughs of waves till its too late. A big part of my issue is the amount of debris in my neck of the woods. EPA (or one of those agencies) does not allow removal of deteriorating docks and piers. So they fall apart anywhere from New York Harbor, all the way up the Hudson to Kill Van Kull and comes down into the bay. Its much better then it used to be...but a few high waters, a storm and the bay can be littered for weeks with debris. High riders are not a problem seeing...its the water logged pieces and Up and Downers (vertical poles) that always got me. A few inches higher would help...short tower was the ticket for me...guess platform shoes or a milk crate could have worked too.

I have same old flat running gear(10 deg)...what size prop where you able to turn? Intermediate struts is something I thought to add....but long as I keep shafts straight withing .003 or better she runs real smooth, especially since I added a reduction gear.

[Pete Fallon]

Carl,
In the Salem/ Beverly/Marblehead harbors the lobster pots are every where even in the marked channels. I have wrapped up a lot of them over the years but a sharp knife and a mate that didn't mind cold water took care of the line in the props. When I repowered the trannies in 1997 they were 1:5:1 8 DEGREE down angle Hurths. I was turning 17"x18 pitch with a slight cup or 18" x18 pitch with a medium cup. Either prop gave me high mph and good gas mileage. The intermediate struts were little stubby ones about 2" aft of the shaft log tube exits. They were added in early 1962 because the shafts were snapping at high speeds, the solution was to add the 2nd set of struts to reduce the shaft whip at speed. I ran the 1-1/4" Monel shafts for 15 years with the 413 Chryslers and the 440 Chryslers with direct drive trannies with little tiny wheels 3 bladed 16" x 11 pitch bronze props . The reduction trannies really helped the speed and I increased the prop size to 17"x 18 or 18"x18 in 1997.
I have been thru the New York area on deliveries and I know what your talking about especially the dead heads that you hardly ever see. A solution for seeing over the bow from the express helm would be bolting a tackle storage box onto the engine hatch(if you still have the old 2 piece box lids) additional 12 " of height is really helpful and if you do it right it will look like it belongs there.
How's your knee doing since the surgery? Did you get your shop back to normal since the fire? Mine is still giving me some problems, going to doctor in Boston next week for an MRI.
Pete Fallon

[Carl]

Pete,
Thankfully no surgery here...lost house in sandy, mom and had a fire at shop...that was more then enough.

Shop is about 90% done... (running at 100%) what is left is mostly cosmetic and still have to run a couple new electrical lines inside for some lights and stuff but waiting on ceiling panels to come in first.

I had hoped the operation to nerves took care of the problem for you. Hopefully it was still a step forward....you sure did pick a hell of a year to come North.

12" higher would have been perfect....But before I had canvas to windshield so that would not have helped much. I just added a short tower, 1/2 tower...basically hardtop height...so a few steps up and visibility is perfect.

Carl

[Pete Fallon]

Carl,
For some reason I thought you had a knee replacement, too many of us are having replacements to keep track. Glad to hear that the shop is back up and running. I always thought about adding a half tower to my express but never got to do it. I remember when I did the survey on Ed Murray's old Finest Kind a 1963 express he had a full tower and with my knee problem I almost didn't make it back into the cockpit. Glad to hear everything is going well for you. I was watching a program about a place called Salty's in Lavernia (spelling) NJ and what they went through after Sandy and seeing the pictures on the internet,Have a good weekend.
Pete Fallon

[MarkD]

Pete:

Sent you a PM.

mark

[Tony Meola]

Carl,
For some reason I thought you had a knee replacement, too many of us are having replacements to keep track. Glad to hear that the shop is back up and running. I always thought about adding a half tower to my express but never got to do it. I remember when I did the survey on Ed Murray's old Finest Kind a 1963 express he had a full tower and with my knee problem I almost didn't make it back into the cockpit. Glad to hear everything is going well for you. I was watching a program about a place called Salty's in Lavernia (spelling) NJ and what they went through after Sandy and seeing the pictures on the internet,Have a good weekend.
Pete Fallon

Pete

I think you mean Lavelette NJ, one of the hard hit shore towns.

[Carl]

Personally I think Express looks better with a little more height...

But absolute day and night difference for me avoiding low floating debris, in slop, at cruise. I was headed to Essex from Milford Connecticut on a less then admiral day...as I crested a wave I saw a bleach jug down in the wave to my right and another over to my left a split sec later. Luckily Pots were not strung together...not sure if they run them there like offshore. I did a U-EE back to port till weather calmed down a bit. Boat was fine running it...but I am not jumping over to cut rope off running gear in steep 2-3's, in unknown waters...at least I had no intention of doing that on my vacation.

Including Saturday and Sunday...shop was down a total of 3 days. Brought an 800 amp generator and we got back to working with a tarped roof, boarded up windows and doors some drop lights in damaged areas. We cleaned and straightened up as we got back to running jobs...hired contractors to do the rest as we went along. Hardest part was dealing with DOB...they were trying to enforce a misplaced Vacate on my building...then lost DOB records, whatever...its all good. Didn't have much of a choice anyway.

Sandy hit lots of places pretty hard...Jersey, Staten Island New York, Long Island Rockaways. Like everything else you get thru it....again...not much of a choice.

Luckily it is not me, but you are correct way too many people getting knee replacements...Then again many of the people I know have had very good results. They were able to get around again without assistance and pain.
I hope the best for you...you have dealt with knee problems for way too long.