Worst news-- starboard engine toast

[Jamie MacKenzie]

Hello sandboxers:

Girl Friday is a 1962 Express Cruiser. My mechanic tells me two cylinders on the starboard engine have Zero compression. He couldn't get the timing right--it was backfiring at high speed, losing power, etc. These are Pleasurecraft Sea Max 5.7 liter HO small block v-8's.

It's an ugly story, but I accidentally hit the kill switch at cruising speed a couple of years ago. Twice. It was an idiotic mistake, and the starboard engine didn't survive it. In my defense, you couldn't see which switches were the bilge pumps and which were the engine kill switches. (It now has keys, so I can't make that asinine mistake again.) My former/crooked/jerk/rip-off artist mechanic sold me on the idea of a rebuilt block, re-using everything else. The engines only had 250 hours on them. They now have 275

SO, two years later, the rebuilt block is toast. Not warrantied. Guy is a real criminal--can't go back to him for any reason, ever. Can you tell I'm ticked off?

Here are my questions:
1) Should I see if Pleasurecraft will sell me just the block again this time? These blocks , I believe, are re-bored for high performance (330 hp)
2) Would you do another re-build? (using somebody reputable this time)
3) My new mechanic says I should get a whole new engine with fuel injection (they currently have high-end 4bbl carbs--and you can watch the fuel gauge drop at high speed)
4) Wouldn't it make sense to have both engines with carburetors? rather than just one with fuel injection? Or does that matter?
5) The transmission needs work--it's original to my '62 Express Cruiser. What tranny would you recommend?

I can't afford to re-power with diesel, so please don't go there. If I had it to do over again, I'd have bought a '31 with diesels. It's my first boat. An impulse buy with a very expensive learning curve...

The boat is in Jersey City. Can't really run her down to Tom Oaks at Holtz Boat works--which is what I'd like to do...Fire away!

[Navatech]

The boat is in Jersey City. Can't really run her down to Tom Oaks at Holtz Boat works--which is what I'd like to do...Fire away!

Put the sick engine on a pallet and ship it by FedEx Freight or some such to Tom... That's assuming he says he can do something with it... Otherwise, ask him if he's got a running takeout...

[Bruce]

Don't mix fuel injection with carb. Go with a long block assembly to save money and reuse the rest of parts.

Keep it simple.

[lobsta1]

Came across this listing on ... thehulltruth.
Al

http://www.thehulltruth.com/parts-forum ... tured.html

[Tony Meola]

What Bruce said.

Unless you can find a running take out that is in good shape.

[PeterPalmieri]

I went through a similar problem recently and a bunch of guys here recommended michiganmotorz they have a nice website where you can get prices on blocks and complete motors. A 454 block was $3500 plus about 15 hours labor to remove the old engine strip it and bolt everything up to the new block. We wound up getting a rebuilt block locally for the same price but saved on the shipping.

Good luck.

[Fishin Tom]

Jamie-

Contact me for some ideas, I don't think your engines are 454's I think they were 350's. We are a Pleasure Craft and Crusader dealer and can get you back in action for spring.
Tom Oakes
Holtz Boatworks
tomoakes@holtzboatworks.com
609.390.3052 shop
772.485.4595 cell

[CamB25]

How could a kill switch lead to no compression or any damage to the engines?

[Hyena Love]

You can buy long blocks or short block in Chevy 350 virtually everywhere. Or, crate engines from mild to wild. Swapping externals is not that tough. Time consuming, but not really technically challenging.

[John F.]

I don't get the kill switch part either. I'd confirm this with mechanic (like Bruce), but it seems to me that your replacement 350 needs to match your takeout regarding cam profile, piston/compression, in order to get similar/same performance per side. There are lots of different ways to build a 350

[STraenkle]

I have seen when cutting the ignition at full throttle with carb engines cause a massive backfire. I made and wrote the software to control dynos for Land and sea, and testing the ignition cut off on an engine which was at full load and 5000 RPM. Fuel still spewing into the engine and no spark to ignite it, then bang, heat causes it to go, or turning the ignition back on. However, I have not seen a blown engine from that (Bob hope I using the correct term, lol). I guess it is possible to damage something, but usually just a "holy s$%t", and a hole in the exhaust.

[acarb]

Kill switch didn't cause the failure. The mechanics back yard rebuild would be the culprit in my opinion or just a plain ole part failure.

[Stephan]

Would a shut down at high speed permit water intrusion to the back cylinders?
Very sorry for your loss...

[Jamie MacKenzie]

You guys have come through, as usual. I SO appreciate all of your comments-- especially the skepticism about the kill switch. That never made sense to me. It was two years ago that this crooked Jersey City guy told me that the engine was ruined by the high speed shutdown. It did NOT backfire or smoke at the time. I admit, I'm naive, but he said that the engine that reverses direction couldn't handle it (and that a car engine would shut itself off without damage). He was good at creating more $$ for himself by finding dire issues with the boat--he always had it already taken apart when he showed me. I quickly realized that I was being taken for a ride, but it took awhile to pry myself out of his clutches. He had the engine out of the boat.

I agree that I need the same power and fuel system coming from both engines. My new guy now says we should start by taking off the heads and seeing if we can fix the head or maybe there's crud, etc. At the same time, the starboard engine was already making a lot of noise at low rpm. He said that the flex plate hadn't been replaced and that it needed to come out. He also says if the engines are firing properly, that the flex plate won't make so much noise. I am out of my depth... and worried about being taken advantage of again.

Meanwhile: Thanks so much to everyone who commented. I should have asked more questions before.

[wmachovina]

Criminals should be shot I tell you! shot!

[Bruce]

and worried about being taken advantage of again.

Just post as clearly as possible your mechanics suggestions and we will help you determine the best course of action and whether or not to ask further questions.

[Carl]

For what it is worth.

My 62 Express and I were cruising along at a nice pace to Fire Island and I put my chart back where I "Used" to like to keep it. Rolled Up and slid in between gauges and windshield...that was till I missed and hit the Ignition Pull Switch. Engine shut...other made some unhappy noise...Scared the Poop Outta me and Doreen till I figured it out...which was about a Lifetime or Two Whole Seconds. I did a few quick checks, said a few words to the man upstairs, pulled ignition switch back out, hit starter, engine came back to life...did a few more checks....back into gear. CAREFULLY removed said Chart from its Old Safe Place gave it some throttle...all seemed well and off and running we went. Never had an issue.

Not saying it could not have been a problem...just saying for me it was not.
Reverse rotation...same crap inside except I think cam is usually gear driven to reverse its rotation as standard motors are chain driven...I would think that gears would make the motor more robust and not less. But take that from a Shade Tree Wanna be Mechanic.

Carl

[Bruce]

When almost all marine inboard engines shut down, unlike a manual transmission car there is no drag on the engine. The engine drives the tranny oil pump and as soon as the engine quits the plates in the gear relax and it free wheels. So there is no load to lug it. (that is unless someone blows up a gear and all the nice metal pieces lock it up. Like one of the heirs to the Johnson and Johnson fortune kept doing to his boat back in the 80's. That was good times)

There is a slight possibility of fuel being pulled out of the carb while winding down, they quit pretty fast as anyone who had it happen knows. Can turning the ignition back on cause some fuel to ignite. Sure. But just think how when running at 4000 rpm how many times a second each cylinder has a contained explosion in it yet does not come apart.

If you have an open valve in the cylinder containing fuel it will pop back thru the intake or exhaust releasing all pressure. As long as its not a throttle body where the wires and plastic WILL catch and burn on the injectors your good.

Is there a possibility of getting water into the back cylinders when not running but the boat is moving along? Yes if one is using a lift style exhaust as do most gen sets and why on lift mufflers there is a drain plug to drain if what ever engine that is hooked to it has extended periods of cranking without starting and another reason you don't use a scoop pickup with a gen set.

The exhaust outlet of a marine engine should be at least 12" above the water line(hence why we have the part "risers") and a down hill run to the outlet.

Most folks upon losing an engine will pull back on the other one. If you have a dead dog and have to run back to the dock, run slow or shut the though hull that feeds the dead dog engine water pump. Just don't forget to open it back up again once you start to troubleshoot.

As a reminder I had tags that I used to put around start switches, gear levers, breakers upon closng a fuel line, through hull or what ever to prevent that dreaded "I forgot" syndrome.

[Rawleigh]

Bruce: I take the key out and hang it on the thru hull handle.

[Jamie MacKenzie]

Well, after some investigating, I decided to put her on a truck and take her to Tom Oakes at Holtz Boat Works. He's worked on it before and I like the way they operate. We're going to get a new long block, it looks like. While she's there, I may do some cosmetic stuff.